CAP membership in military flying clubs

Started by flyguy06, December 30, 2006, 09:21:52 PM

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flyguy06

In my Squadron, we have a lot of pilots join but they join for the wrong reasons. There is a military flying club and in order to become a member you have to either be in the military, retired military, spouse of military, or CAP. The problem is they will join CAP to get a membership card and join the military flying club. We never see them at meetings or activities, yet they are always at the flying club flying the planes. Two guys have been in CAP since 1992 and only completed Level I training One is a Dentist and demanded we promote him to Captain because of his medical training. My commander, being a 74 year old man, vietnam era helicopter pilot who tries to be nice to everyone went ahead and approved his promotion to my dis satisfaction.

This is why I am opposed to the military flying club letting CAP members join. I dont really have a problem withthem joining but if they are not active and just using CAP they need to let go from the club.

This is how I look at it. The military flying club is a military benefit. Just like the PX, commissary, bowling alley. We (military folks) fought hard and have "earned" these benefits. We earned the right to fly at a discounted flying club. So, her ecomes this guy who, just because he paid dues in CAP now has the same benfits I have. Is this fair? I dont think it is. If he were active in CAP. then that would be cool. He has earned it if he participates in ES missions,or flies cadets around or teaches classes. But just because he paid some money and is in CAP why is he enjoying the same benefits I and thousands others have worked and sacrafised to earn?

Forgive me, I am venting because I just had to talk to this guy.

Major Carrales

One should join CAP out of a desire for service, as well as to fly. 

Think of it this way, when one comes to a unit they bring with them a skills set; be it pilot, ground, youth programs or you name it.  Those that have alterior motives that do not involve being a WHOLE CAP officer, serving their community/Aif Force/Nation in CAP are not "part of the game plan."

Would a 2B be in order for a person who joins in name only for some other purpose?  That is for the forum to converse.

Should we try to encourge this member to participate?  Yes. Can we force them, most likely not.  Do we have to have dead weight in the units?    

As for Military Flying Clubs...I have nothing against them.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

flyguy06

Those are nice words and very idealistic, but  Idont think they are very realistic. People generally join organizations to see what they can get out of it. Is that the right attitude? No, Is it reality? Yes. I wish we could 2B these members, but the down side is that would drop our roster to about 4 people which is no good

arajca

More realistically, people are looking for a return on their investment. How they individually define that is up to them. For some it's helping a young person grow into a fine upstanding adult, others cheap flying time, yet others want the educational benefits (AFIADL and scholarships).

I have heard that some military personnel join CAP for cheap flying since the CAP rates are less than the military flying club rates and our aircraft are better.

Major Carrales

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:59:57 PM
Those are nice words and very idealistic, but  I dont think they are very realistic. People generally join organizations to see what they can get out of it. Is that the right attitude? No, Is it reality? Yes. I wish we could 2B these members, but the down side is that would drop our roster to about 4 people which is no good

Idealism is that star we try to reach, never do...but are driven farther by it.

Yes, people join organizations for "what they can get out of it."  I fully expect the pilots in our unit to get flying time.  But, a unit has to be built and maintained.  If people don't "do their part" then the unit will collapse as those that do burn out.  I have seen this with my own eyes.

That everyone do their part, that is not unreasonable.  Our three part mission is not to provide free flying time or activities for people to fill free time.  Those that join must have that made clear to them from the start.

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Major Carrales

Quote from: arajca on December 30, 2006, 10:10:25 PM
More realistically, people are looking for a return on their investment. How they individually define that is up to them. For some it's helping a young person grow into a fine upstanding adult, others cheap flying time, yet others want the educational benefits (AFIADL and scholarships).

I have heard that some military personnel join CAP for cheap flying since the CAP rates are less than the military flying club rates and our aircraft are better.

Our three part mission is not to provide free flying time or activities for people to fill free time.  Those that join must have that made clear to them from the start.

That having been said, there are those opportunities their, but there has to be a trade off.  This began with a member's frustration in a person who joined CAP for the seemingly wrong reason. 

There has to be a trade off, what you give should be proportional to what you get.  If one gives nothing to the unit, why should we grin and allow an abuse of the system?
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

RiverAux

I would rather have them join CAP just to get access to the military flying club rather than join CAP and try to turn it into a flying club.  At least this way we get some dues money out of them. 

sandman

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:21:52 PM
In my Squadron, we have a lot of pilots join but they join for the wrong reasons. There is a military flying club and in order to become a member you have to either be in the military, retired military, spouse of military, or CAP. The problem is they will join CAP to get a membership card and join the military flying club. We never see them at meetings or activities, yet they are always at the flying club flying the planes. Two guys have been in CAP since 1992 and only completed Level I training One is a Dentist and demanded we promote him to Captain because of his medical training. My commander, being a 74 year old man, vietnam era helicopter pilot who tries to be nice to everyone went ahead and approved his promotion to my dis satisfaction.

This is why I am opposed to the military flying club letting CAP members join. I dont really have a problem withthem joining but if they are not active and just using CAP they need to let go from the club.

This is how I look at it. The military flying club is a military benefit. Just like the PX, commissary, bowling alley. We (military folks) fought hard and have "earned" these benefits. We earned the right to fly at a discounted flying club. So, her ecomes this guy who, just because he paid dues in CAP now has the same benfits I have. Is this fair? I dont think it is. If he were active in CAP. then that would be cool. He has earned it if he participates in ES missions,or flies cadets around or teaches classes. But just because he paid some money and is in CAP why is he enjoying the same benefits I and thousands others have worked and sacrafised to earn?

Forgive me, I am venting because I just had to talk to this guy.

Okay, for one thing, just get over it. Why? Well, the doc, and other "dead weights" still pay dues. Some monies go to the squadron, wing, and national. Think of it in this sense...the guy may not fully participate in person but he is donating to the cause with money.

Two. Medical professionals, MD, DO, DDS, etc. are offered the rank of captain initially anyway. Promotions continue on only time in service. Why worry? There is no DOPMA limitations on how many officers are allowed for a certain grade! Heck, I can be a Lt. Col. right now if I wanted (the pay is the same anyway), I just haven't put in the paperwork....and I have hardly done anything practically since CPPT. [/rant]

Let it be. How does it effect you? Re-examine your priorities. I almost want to say you have way too much time on your hands and/or an addiction to CAP to let this bother you.
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

flyguy06

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 30, 2006, 10:17:22 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:59:57 PM
Those are nice words and very idealistic, but  I dont think they are very realistic. People generally join organizations to see what they can get out of it. Is that the right attitude? No, Is it reality? Yes. I wish we could 2B these members, but the down side is that would drop our roster to about 4 people which is no good

Idealism is that star we try to reach, never do...but are driven farther by it.

Yes, people join organizations for "what they can get out of it."  I fully expect the pilots in our unit to get flying time.  But, a unit has to be built and maintained.  If people don't "do their part" then the unit will collapse as those that do burn out.  I have seen this with my own eyes.

That everyone do their part, that is not unreasonable.  Our three part mission is not to provide free flying time or activities for people to fill free time.  Those that join must have that made clear to them from the start.



You're preaching to the choir. I agree with you that everyone should do their part. Its trying to impart that upon these senior members that is the challenge. If we were talking about one or two out of a squadron of 20, it wouldnt be such an issue but when youare talking about 3 or 4 out of a squadron of 12 it becomes an issue

flyguy06



Okay, for one thing, just get over it. Why? Well, the doc, and other "dead weights" still pay dues. Some monies go to the squadron, wing, and national. Think of it in this sense...the guy may not fully participate in person but he is donating to the cause with money.

Two. Medical professionals, MD, DO, DDS, etc. are offered the rank of captain initially anyway. Promotions continue on only time in service. Why worry? There is no DOPMA limitations on how many officers are allowed for a certain grade! Heck, I can be a Lt. Col. right now if I wanted (the pay is the same anyway), I just haven't put in the paperwork....and I have hardly done anything practically since CPPT. [/rant]

Let it be. How does it effect you? Re-examine your priorities. I almost want to say you have way too much time on your hands and/or an addiction to CAP to let this bother you.
[/quote]

Ok, I see what you are saying and believe me, its not that I have too much time onmy hands.
Understand that I have been in CAP contiuouslly since I was 15 years in the same squadron. My squadron is located in a unique area that needs a programlike CAP. I am trying to build a quality program for youths in my community. I know what CAP did for me as a youth and Iknow what it cando for other young people. However its frustrating when I have to do it alone. I set up O-rides, get promises from pilots, invite the cadets and one pilot shows up. Makes for a really long day. Lets see. We schedule a meeting to go over the CAPF 100 and go over the test for Gen ES and two folks show up. The others say they want to be ES qualified but dont show up for the training. Then there is the whole flying club thing I described above.

Put all these things together and realize i have been dealing with this for over 10 years and you can see my frustration.

RiverAux

Here is what I would do....have the squadron commander approach the flying club and ask them to revise their membership requirements to only allow current and qualified CAP Mission Pilots to join their flying club.  That will ensure that they are meeting some minimum requirements as to proficiency and dedication to CAP, and that will be to the flying club's advantage.  I am sure they would understand why you would ask this.

The reason you would want to do this is that these "CAP Members" are representing CAP on the base to some extent and if one of them have an accident it will reflect badly on CAP ("Oh yeah, that was a CAP guy.  Obviously those guys don't know anything about flying....").  

Now, if they flying club changes their rules this could actually be a benefit by putting these AF pilots in contact with dedicated CAP members and might help bring in some new recruits.  

flyguy06

But not everyone in CAP is interested in being a Mission Pilot. Most of our good members want to fly cadets and give O-rides.

lordmonar

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:21:52 PM
In my Squadron, we have a lot of pilots join but they join for the wrong reasons. There is a military flying club and in order to become a member you have to either be in the military, retired military, spouse of military, or CAP. The problem is they will join CAP to get a membership card and join the military flying club. We never see them at meetings or activities, yet they are always at the flying club flying the planes. Two guys have been in CAP since 1992 and only completed Level I training One is a Dentist and demanded we promote him to Captain because of his medical training. My commander, being a 74 year old man, vietnam era helicopter pilot who tries to be nice to everyone went ahead and approved his promotion to my dis satisfaction.

If they are not active in CAP....2b them.  It's that simple.

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:21:52 PM
This is why I am opposed to the military flying club letting CAP members join. I dont really have a problem withthem joining but if they are not active and just using CAP they need to let go from the club.

This is not a CAP problem but a aero club problem.  Who they let join them has nothing to do with CAP.  Just because people abuse this, don't take it away from those who are in CAP and are looking for a cheap aero club to join.  The fix, as I just said, is to 2b those members who are not active with CAP.  It is completely within the rights of the squadron commander to fix this problem.

The other thing I have got to ask...is why do you care?  I mean...someone pays his dues, does his minimal training and then never shows up again?  Who cares?  Now if they are over at the aero club giving you squadron a bad name...then you have something to talk about.

Getting people active in you squadron is not the aero club's job...but your job.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

flyguy06

Why do I care? Because I just spent a year in a freking dessert away from my family to earn the right to become part of a discounted flying club/. What did the lazy CAP guy do? Why should he enjoy the same priviledge as me? Exactly what has he done to earn that? I was always taught you get what you earn.

RiverAux

QuoteBut not everyone in CAP is interested in being a Mission Pilot. Most of our good members want to fly cadets and give O-rides.

Make up your mind.  Your first post indicated that these people in the aero club were doing absolutely nothing in CAP.  If they are giving o-rides for cadets they are doing someting positive and I don't understand what you're griping about. 

RocketPropelled

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 31, 2006, 02:07:59 AM
Why do I care? Because I just spent a year in a freking dessert away from my family to earn the right to become part of a discounted flying club/. What did the lazy CAP guy do? Why should he enjoy the same priviledge as me? Exactly what has he done to earn that? I was always taught you get what you earn.

I was always taught that life isn't fair.

Did you really spend a year in the desert in order to join an aero club? Because, seriously, that's a pretty harsh membership bar to clear.

That said, aero clubs, even military ones, can extend membership to whomever they wish.  While working for a former employer (an Alabama state agency) I was extended the privilege of joining an aero club at an Army post with a rather nice airfield (Redstone Arsenal).  We were also afforded privileges at the local Army-sponsored credit union (Redstone Federal).  We didn't get any level of hate or static from the Army folks over either issue.  In fact, they were gracious about it.

So, as I'm reading it, you're upset because you feel the military aero club should not allow CAP members access to the fleet?  Okay -- go complain to their leadership about how your military service is somehow diminished or minimized by their policies.

dmac

At Offutt AFB, the Aero Club grants membership to CAP members but when I was the squadron commander of the unit on base, I had to be very careful of letting people join CAP just to join the Aero Club. We would screen people for that very reason and wouldn't let them join CAP so they wouldn't have access to the Base. AFI 10-2701 allows installation commanders to grant CAP use of base facilities.

flyguy06

Quote from: RocketPropelled on December 31, 2006, 04:18:58 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 31, 2006, 02:07:59 AM
Why do I care? Because I just spent a year in a freking dessert away from my family to earn the right to become part of a discounted flying club/. What did the lazy CAP guy do? Why should he enjoy the same priviledge as me? Exactly what has he done to earn that? I was always taught you get what you earn.

I was always taught that life isn't fair.

Did you really spend a year in the desert in order to join an aero club? Because, seriously, that's a pretty harsh membership bar to clear.

You read incorrectly. I have no problem with CAPers being in the aero club. I have an issue with CAPers that are not active in CAP being inthe aero club.
That said, aero clubs, even military ones, can extend membership to whomever they wish.  While working for a former employer (an Alabama state agency) I was extended the privilege of joining an aero club at an Army post with a rather nice airfield (Redstone Arsenal).  We were also afforded privileges at the local Army-sponsored credit union (Redstone Federal).  We didn't get any level of hate or static from the Army folks over either issue.  In fact, they were gracious about it.

So, as I'm reading it, you're upset because you feel the military aero club should not allow CAP members access to the fleet?  Okay -- go complain to their leadership about how your military service is somehow diminished or minimized by their policies.

T34 Flyer

#18
I am a long time CAP member and the president of a Navy Flying Club.  The clubs need CAP members.

Active duty club members are deployed regularly these days, CAP and retired military are needed to keep the clubs running. 

I joined CAP to stay in the club system, upon learning what CAP does, I desided to become active in CAP.  I have been a squadron commander and sar pilot.  I invited one person to join CAP to join the flying club and he went on to be a group commander.  IT GOES BOTH WAYS!

The regs require that a CAP member get a letter from there commander to join the club, but don't ask the clubs to inforce, they will not. They need members.  I know a club that has patron applications in the office and those people you don't see even once.


With the deminishing reasons to remain in CAP a benifit is club membership.  I recommend you join the nearest club to you.

sandman

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 10:51:52 PM


Ok, I see what you are saying and believe me, its not that I have too much time onmy hands.
Understand that I have been in CAP contiuouslly since I was 15 years in the same squadron. My squadron is located in a unique area that needs a programlike CAP. I am trying to build a quality program for youths in my community. I know what CAP did for me as a youth and Iknow what it cando for other young people. However its frustrating when I have to do it alone. I set up O-rides, get promises from pilots, invite the cadets and one pilot shows up. Makes for a really long day. Lets see. We schedule a meeting to go over the CAPF 100 and go over the test for Gen ES and two folks show up. The others say they want to be ES qualified but dont show up for the training. Then there is the whole flying club thing I described above.

Put all these things together and realize i have been dealing with this for over 10 years and you can see my frustration.

I see that you may have some frustration within the squadron, I sympathize. The point of my criticism of your post was that you shouldn't discourage people from joining. Anyone other than medical or JAG who doesn't participate in your squadron you can choose to disenroll them.
However, I would discourage you to take that action unless the dead weight member is detrimental in some way to the squadron...which requires the member to show up on occasion so you can evaluate their character!

Who cares if they just want to join the military aero club. I ask again, how does that effect you? Well, in short, that member helps keep the military aero club afloat so that you can enjoy it too!

Can you redouble your recruiting efforts to bring in members who want to participate in your squadron? Does your squadron lack in ways that discourage continuous member participation?

And for my last jag...you were in the desert for only a year? What luck. Seriously, thanks for your service...in the desert and in CAP. Keep up the good work...
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command