Deputy Commander for Seniors

[Eclipse]

^ Weird, and didn't the return of the nameplate pre-date the implementation of the CC badge?

[spacecommand]

Deputy Commander for Cadets = CDC
Deputy Commander for Seniors = CDS

Those are certainly the office symbols for those Offices according to CAPR 10-1.

The old CAPR10-1 before the revision had this note:
"These address symbols are shown by functional areas and should not be construed as duty titles."

Note that AEO or even Aerospace Education Officer does not show up on CAPR10-1 either, the office symbol of AE is used for Aerospace Education.  Though we often use AEO as the abbreviation for the duty title Aerospace Education Officer.

[Skiiver]

I hate to barge in like this and ask what may be an obvious question... but oh well. I know the regs, and I know the chain of command. I'm looking for a general opinion: in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvemet of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

[Spaceman3750]

Like the CDS at your squadron much?

The cadets do not fall under the CDS in the chain of command. As a CDS, I always try to respect that chain and go through the CDC and C/CC when I need a cadet to do something, though sometimes I will address the cadet directly for the sake of expediency and occasional unreliability with the cadet chain. They do not have any demotion or promotion authority and don't have any direct influence over cadet staff selection. They are the Deputy Commander for Seniors.

Keep in mind that many seniors are multi-billited and therefore your CDS might also be the Asst. CDC or the like.

On its face, this is a good example of the random senior interloping that I discussed in another thread. However, I can't honestly see a commander letting his CDS do this in practice.

[Skiiver]

How can you tell?

Our unit is mildly sized in terms of membership, but we have a full chain of command and I would like to see it more strongly enforced from the senior side. All these things have caused a significant amount of conflict over recent months. The CC isn't actively supporting his CDS' actions, but he's not doing much about them either.

Thanks for your reply, I'd like to read this thread. 

[Spaceman3750]

Now, just because a senior isn't in your chain of command, that doesn't mean you get to blow them off. If they ask you to do something, do it or say "Sir, my superior has already tasked me to do X, but I will find someone who can do that for you." - just because they can't promote you doesn't mean they don't outrank you.

[Skiiver]

Of course, and we do. Just looking for answers.

[Short Field]

in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvemet of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

If the CDS can demote cadets, withhold promotions, and direct cadet staff assignments, then the CDS does have the authority to it.  Sorry, but if the CC has not corrected this, then it is with the CC's permission by default.   If the CDC is allowing it to happen, then it is with the CDC's permission by default.

Not all lines of authority are as clear as a line connecting two blocks on a piece of paper.  None of my organizational charts show the Cadet Commander as falling under the Cadet Leadership Officer - but it is very unwise for a cadet to ignore him.

[lordmonar]

I hate to barge in like this and ask what may be an obvious question... but oh well. I know the regs, and I know the chain of command. I'm looking for a general opinion: in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvemet of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

Not if the organisation is following the concepts of chain of command, span of control and unity of command.

The cadet operations fall under the CDC and he/she falls under the commander.

The CDS should not have any direct say into any of these matters.

Please notice the "should" in that sentance.  The chain of command in any organisation will have some overlap, dotted line relationships, and other "I got two bosses" situations.

For example the:

AE in a composite squadron he has an internal senior duty and and external duty that falls under the CDS.....but his internal cadet AE duties falls under the CDC.
Leadership Officers....ina composite squadron the have a senior duty where they fall under the PDO......and a cadet duty where they fall under the CDC.
When cadets partipate in ES operations they fall under the ES officer and the CDS.
Adminstration and personel officers have to deal with both CDC and CDS.

So....the chain of command can be blury at times....but.....in the situations you are asking about.....there SHOULD NOT be any reason for the CDS to get involved and the CDC should be protecting his turf from such intrustions and the CC should be makeing sure all the players are staying in their own lanes.

[Spaceman3750]

Actually, when cadets participate in ES operations they fall under their immediate supervisor (GTL, unit leader, whatever). Your ES officer can be an MSA and have no authority at all on an actual mission.

[lordmonar]

Actually, when cadets participate in ES operations they fall under their immediate supervisor (GTL, unit leader, whatever). Your ES officer can be an MSA and have no authority at all on an actual mission.

I was thinking more on the operational training side as opposed to actual SAREX or SAR operations.

The ES officer is in charge of planning, training and executing all ES actiivties.....hence the gray line of authority.

[Eclipse]

The ES officer is in charge of planning, training and executing all ES actiivties.....hence the gray line of authority.

Fixed that for you.  I have a philosophical issue with that - the ESO is not a wrench turner, he's a planner and administrator for others.

[lordmonar]

The ES officer is in charge of planning, training and executing all ES actiivties.....hence the gray line of authority.

Fixed that for you.  I have a philosophical issue with that - the ESO is not a wrench turner, he's a planner and administrator for others.

Then who is in CHARGE of executing the plan?

[spacecommand]

I'm looking for a general opinion: in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvement of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

As the Deputy Commander for Cadets in my squadron, I have permissions to access to the cadet promotions/cadet testing etc panel in e-services.  I can see cadet test results, if they are promoting or not etc etc.

Likewise, because I'm not the Squadron Commander, I do not have access to Senior Member promotions panel etc, nor do I have access to the Safety Officer's items or Operations Officer's items.  I can have access if granted the proper permissions.

Does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have access permissions to cadet promotions via e-services?  I'm not sure, I would venture to say under normal circumstances they would not have those permissions, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, if the Deputy Commander for Seniors is doing all of that as you indicated without the involvement of the Deputy Commander for Cadets or the Squadron Commander, then something seems fishy about whats going on at that squadron. It might not be entirely the Deputy Commander for Seniors fault, it might be because of poor command structure, from a Squadron Commander who never shows up or a Deputy Commander for Cadets who never shows up.  However, generally speaking, the Squadron Commander and the Deputy Commander for Cadets should be involved in the daily activities of the cadets not the Deputy Commander for Seniors.

[Eclipse]

The ES officer is in charge of planning, training and executing all ES actiivties.....hence the gray line of authority.

Fixed that for you.  I have a philosophical issue with that - the ESO is not a wrench turner, he's a planner and administrator for others.

Then who is in CHARGE of executing the plan?

The operators - aircrew, approved trainers, ground team people, SET's, etc.  The ESO might be one of those people, mostly because we're short handed or he likes doing that, but by design he's not executing the plans.  The ESO is supposed to make sure the resources are available, and the people doing the work are properly vetted, etc.

[lordmonar]

Nope....they are in charge of carrying out the TASK.....not the plan.

[Eclipse]

Nope....they are in charge of carrying out the TASK.....not the plan.

I see your "nope" and raise you a "I don't even think so".  The duties are about creating and administering the plans and programs around ES, not running activities.  There isn't even a requirement that an ESO be a qualified operator, and certainly most are not dual-tracked enough to do both air and ground taskings, etc. 

Quoth 20-1
Emergency Services (ES) Officer

Manages and directs emergency services activities.  They shall:
Develop agreements with agencies responsible for search, domestic emergencies, and civil defense.
Develop and maintain an adequate emergency service force.
Develop training programs to ensure that highly qualified ES personnel are available for search and rescue, and disaster
relief missions.
Develop plans and standard operating procedures to support the wing's emergency services program.
Maintain records to determine the status of resources (personnel, vehicles aircraft, radios and other emergency
equipment) available for ES missions.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm looking for a general opinion: in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvement of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

As the Deputy Commander for Cadets in my squadron, I have permissions to access to the cadet promotions/cadet testing etc panel in e-services.  I can see cadet test results, if they are promoting or not etc etc.

Likewise, because I'm not the Squadron Commander, I do not have access to Senior Member promotions panel etc, nor do I have access to the Safety Officer's items or Operations Officer's items.  I can have access if granted the proper permissions.

Does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have access permissions to cadet promotions via e-services?  I'm not sure, I would venture to say under normal circumstances they would not have those permissions, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, if the Deputy Commander for Seniors is doing all of that as you indicated without the involvement of the Deputy Commander for Cadets or the Squadron Commander, then something seems fishy about whats going on at that squadron. It might not be entirely the Deputy Commander for Seniors fault, it might be because of poor command structure, from a Squadron Commander who never shows up or a Deputy Commander for Cadets who never shows up.  However, generally speaking, the Squadron Commander and the Deputy Commander for Cadets should be involved in the daily activities of the cadets not the Deputy Commander for Seniors.

By default CDS does not have cadet promotions access (they don't have access to about 95% of other modules either), but if the CC assigns them Deputy Commander permissions as well, they will have everything, including cadet promotions.

[lordmonar]

Nope....they are in charge of carrying out the TASK.....not the plan.

I see your "nope" and raise you a "I don't even think so".  The duties are about creating and administering the plans and programs around ES, not running activities.  There isn't even a requirement that an ESO be a qualified operator, and certainly most are not dual-tracked enough to do both air and ground taskings, etc. 

Quoth 20-1
Emergency Services (ES) Officer

Manages and directs emergency services activities.  They shall:
Develop agreements with agencies responsible for search, domestic emergencies, and civil defense.
Develop and maintain an adequate emergency service force.
Develop training programs to ensure that highly qualified ES personnel are available for search and rescue, and disaster
relief missions.
Develop plans and standard operating procedures to support the wing's emergency services program.
Maintain records to determine the status of resources (personnel, vehicles aircraft, radios and other emergency
equipment) available for ES missions.

Sounds like they "run" them to me.

I have to also add......Most full blown ES activites are not "run" at the squadron level anyways.  The IC's are appointed at the wing level and by defalut technically all ES activities are wing affairs.

But that is an argument for another thread.

[Eclipse]

By default CDS does not have cadet promotions access (they don't have access to about 95% of other modules either), but if the CC assigns them Deputy Commander permissions as well, they will have everything, including cadet promotions.

In a preferred situation, the CDC and CDS are both working together, with each having the majority of their duties in their respective area, but occasionally helping out as-needed on the other side of the house.  The houses really shouldn't be that split to start with.

I've seen more than one situation, though, where the CDS has little cadet program knowledge, and may well not even be that fond of "kids", which is why he's the CDS to start with.  Then, though some unexplainable mental process, decides to occasionally "get involved", or worse "fix things" on the cadet side, usually unbidden, and making things worse then they were.  I think for some, it might be mental math that says since the CDS has responsibilities for the adults, that side is somehow higher on the food chain than the cadets.

If the CDS isn't asked to help, he should stay in his lane.