Nameplate on the CSU double-breasted jacket?

[Eclipse]

1 million years ago, great thunder lizards walked the earth and CAP members wore metal grade on their uniforms.

Since the Great Extinction of both, about an equal amount of time and effort has been spent in researching the why's of extinction and
in trying to bring them both back.  Every once in a while, someone finds a long-long ancestor of one or the other and tries to revive the
species.

We are actually probably closer to cloning dinosaurs than we are to getting back metal grade.

[rmcmanus]

Excellently stated Eclipse.  Sad, but excellent!

[kmbarnes1]

Got it. Metal Grade insignia gone and not coming back without an act of God or Jurassic Park becoming a reality. Check, Understood, Roger, etc.

1 million years ago, great thunder lizards walked the earth and CAP members wore metal grade on their uniforms.

Since the Great Extinction of both, about an equal amount of time and effort has been spent in researching the why's of extinction and
in trying to bring them both back.  Every once in a while, someone finds a long-long ancestor of one or the other and tries to revive the
species.

We are actually probably closer to cloning dinosaurs than we are to getting back metal grade.

Being new to the whole uniform issue and still newish to CAP, I understand this uniform issue is "touchy" to say the least. Not wanting to start a new thread, nor extend this thread, was hoping for a reasonable answer in a PM.

Got metal grade not coming back. Still don't know the reasons why it went in the first place. I have some theories why, but no confirmed facts.

Same with Dinosaurs: I know they are gone and not coming back. Still don't know the reasons why they went in the first place. I have some theories why (comets, asteroids, meteors, ice age, aliens (< why not?)), but no confirmed facts.

Oh, and I searched for a good while trying to find a topic on CAP Talk but if anyone knows of a good one for me to read up on this whole uniform thingy, please PM me a link. I'm just trying to learn the issues and get a broader knowledge about things that are going on. Honestly, my biggest overall question that I am trying to figure out is the relationship between the USAF and CAP so in regards to that, I am trying to find out whether CAP messed up and USAF got mad, or did USAF want to just do this? Again, this is not the thread for this discussion so lets not start that topic. I was just looking for some quick information, not sarcasm. Rant over.

[Major Carrales]

Don't fall into the fallacy that the situation with uniforms is some barometer of the CAP/USAF relationship; most of what you will get in that PM is rumor, speculation and all out lies told so many times they come off as fact.

I wonder what would happen if someone posted this as an official request to the USAF or the CAP National Historian.   I have had conversations with the people in power then who negate most of the supposed story as bunk.  Citing that the USAF had wanted a more distinct CAP for some time.

[SStradley]

Snip ...
You are correct. The AF did not like the AF blue grade slides and a few other things. HWSRN "displayed" it on himself at a NB meeting and then forced a vote on it right then. It was not thoroughly vetted by the AF. In fact the CoS of the AF send a letter to some of the brass about that unifrom.
... Snip

NCRBlues, what is your source for the above? Have you seen the CoS's letter? Do you have a copy of it? If so can you post it to this thread? Or do you even know anyone first hand that has seen this letter?

I don't think this letter exists. I don't think the AF was all upset about the CSU/TPU. I don't think the AF worries about our uniforms as much as we think they do.

I think the NB just wanted to remove the last evidence of the prior National Commander.

[FW]

^I am NCRblues' source for the "above", as I've said before, I do have a copy of the letter from Gen. Chandler and, I do have the response from the BoG Chair.  I will not post the letters because they are of poor quality (a fax of a fax).  However, if anyone wants to buy me a root beer in Louisville this August, I can be bribed )

Oh, and btw; it was the NEC who voted the uniform out of existence. And, we don't need to argue about this again, now do we.

[JK657]

can you give us a readers digest of what the letter said?

[Ed Bos]

Amidst the posts from folks in the know, and some that are a bit more speculative I think I understand this pretty well.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and helping me shape my opinions.

[Eclipse]

Snip ...
You are correct. The AF did not like the AF blue grade slides and a few other things. HWSRN "displayed" it on himself at a NB meeting and then forced a vote on it right then. It was not thoroughly vetted by the AF. In fact the CoS of the AF send a letter to some of the brass about that unifrom.
... Snip

NCRBlues, what is your source for the above? Have you seen the CoS's letter? Do you have a copy of it? If so can you post it to this thread? Or do you even know anyone first hand that has seen this letter?

I don't think this letter exists. I don't think the AF was all upset about the CSU/TPU. I don't think the AF worries about our uniforms as much as we think they do.

I think the NB just wanted to remove the last evidence of the prior National Commander.

It doesn't.

[NCRblues]

Snip ...
You are correct. The AF did not like the AF blue grade slides and a few other things. HWSRN "displayed" it on himself at a NB meeting and then forced a vote on it right then. It was not thoroughly vetted by the AF. In fact the CoS of the AF send a letter to some of the brass about that unifrom.
... Snip

NCRBlues, what is your source for the above? Have you seen the CoS's letter? Do you have a copy of it? If so can you post it to this thread? Or do you even know anyone first hand that has seen this letter?

I don't think this letter exists. I don't think the AF was all upset about the CSU/TPU. I don't think the AF worries about our uniforms as much as we think they do.

I think the NB just wanted to remove the last evidence of the prior National Commander.

It doesn't.

It doesn't? 

WOW....that's amazing, so your calling FW a lier? He would lie about this for what reason?

[FW]

For the price of a root beer, Eclipse can find out if the letter exists or not....
Of course, he must go to St Louis (for the summer CAP conference) to see it.

[Eclipse]

I'm not calling anyone, anything.

USAF directives on this scale are not secret, nor would they choose or need to make the whole situation "double secret" as has been
postulated.

IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.

[SarDragon]

After comment and adjustment, the uniform was approved by the USAF, and after that approval, and for the first time in memory, all members had a uniform choice that fulfilled 100% of the mission for all members.

You know that isn't true, and I'm sure that you know why.

[NCRblues]

I'm not calling anyone, anything.

USAF directives on this scale are not secret, nor would they choose or need to make the whole situation "double secret" as has been
postulated.

IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.

Eclipse, the CoS of the AF has to make nothing public other than what public law passed by congress and signed by the president say must be made available. The rest, he can classify at his discreation, that includes anything from what he eat that morning, to personal correspondence to a civilian organization (i.e. CAP).

It just hurts you to believe that everything is not out in the open, and that really surprises me, since you live by Chicago i would have figured you would be used to back door deals and corruption....

[Eclipse]

After comment and adjustment, the uniform was approved by the USAF, and after that approval, and for the first time in memory, all members had a uniform choice that fulfilled 100% of the mission for all members.

You know that isn't true, and I'm sure that you know why.

OK, hippies excepted...we'll never please everyone, but the CSU came pretty close.

[Eclipse]

It just hurts you to believe that everything is not out in the open, and that really surprises me, since you live by Chicago i would have figured you would be used to back door deals and corruption...

So...by your comments you're suggesting something like that occurred in this case?

(and again with personal, unrelated comments)

[NCRblues]

It just hurts you to believe that everything is not out in the open, and that really surprises me, since you live by Chicago i would have figured you would be used to back door deals and corruption...

So...by your comments you're suggesting something like that occurred in this case?

(and again with personal, unrelated comments)

Yes *something* like that did occur... maybe you missed the whole pineda incident, but he was kicked out for doing underhanded things.....So you think the CSU/TPU was the only clean thing pineda did?

(not personal to you, unless your one of the "wonderful" politicians that are coming out of Illinois)

[davidsinn]

After comment and adjustment, the uniform was approved by the USAF, and after that approval, and for the first time in memory, all members had a uniform choice that fulfilled 100% of the mission for all members.

You know that isn't true, and I'm sure that you know why.

OK, hippies excepted...we'll never please everyone, but the CSU came pretty close.

I'm not a hippie. I just don't like being mistaken for a cadet. I have been many times and I'm 26. I wear the BBDU so I can have a goatee. You have seen me both shaved and with facial hair in the space of a week. Honestly which looks better for me? Some guys just look better with a little facial hair.

[Major Carrales]

Again with the politics on the forum?!? 

I will not defend the actions of Citizen Pineda, however, one underhanded event does not mean all activities were (if so, everyone promoted during his administration would be so tainted and invalid). 

Again, a CAP National Commander cannot operate "unilaterally" on an issue like designing a uniform.  It would have to involve a great deal of input and support from the rest of the ruling/governing bodies and accepted by the vote of the National Board.  That it was approved goes to show that it had support.  Seeing that people are always asking for two main things...metal rank pins and blue shoulder marks, it is more likely voted into law by the National Board because it seemed to be the "general will."

[FW]

IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.

Gen Chandler never directed CAP to retire a uniform.  He and Sec. Goodwin wanted the National Commander to work with the Air Force to modify it; so it would be acceptable to CAP and the USAF.