Level 5 Question

[sleepyboyd]

The 50-17 was posted in September of 2009, but I am just now dealing with a member who is getting close to Level 5 Completion.  The question came up about weather this member could serve as Director or Staff of a SLS/CLC and still have that count as a Level 5 approved activity.  The CAPR 50-17 reads...

7-1. Executive. This is the highest level of CAP career development and is for those officers performing duty as commanders or staff officers. As such, only the most dedicated senior members achieve this level. To complete this level, members must:
a. Complete Level IV.
b. Perform in a command or staff position for a total of 3 years of service to CAP.
c. Conduct a Level I Foundations Course summary conversation and serve in a director or staff member capacity in a CAP approved course (reference Attachment 4). This staffing requirement is in addition to the staffing requirement found at paragraph 6-1.d. Attend National Staff College or complete its approved PME equivalent as listed in Attachment 2.

Reading subparagraph c, It seems as if one could sere as a staff member at an SLS for level 4, and then serve an additional time as staff for another SLS after level 4, and recieve credit for level 5.  This is the way I and my prospective level 5'er read this.  Our group seems to think otherwise... They cite a notation in attachment 4 that reads as follows:

COURSES AND EDUCATION/TRAINING ACTIVITIES MUST HAVE 12 HOURS OF CONTACT TIME WING/CC APPROVES CREDIT FOR LEVEL IV. REGION/CC APPROVES FOR LEVEL V.

They cite this as meaning that serving on staff, instead of director for level 5 is up to the Region CC.  I understand that the Region CC is approval authority for Level 5, but if we meet the "Letter of the Law" and there is no Region Supplement, then shoudn't this member be ok for Level 5?

Comments?

[Eclipse]

The answer is in your question.

They cite this as meaning that serving on staff, instead of director for level 5 is up to the Region CC.  I understand that the Region CC is approval authority for Level 5, but if we meet the "Letter of the Law" and there is no Region Supplement, then shoudn't this member be ok for Level 5?

Ask him.

[EMT-83]

I would say that a Level V candidate that has served as a presenter for two SLS courses is a little weak in meeting the requirements. Being a course director for one level and a presenter for the other would be a different story.

As you said, Region CC gets to make the call. I tend to agree that more is needed.

[sleepyboyd]

I would say that a Level V candidate that has served as a presenter for two SLS courses is a little weak in meeting the requirements. Being a course director for one level and a presenter for the other would be a different story.

As you said, Region CC gets to make the call. I tend to agree that more is needed.

I completely agree that the new 50-17 sets out with weak requirements for Level 5, but the regulation states otherwise.  Its a trend of mediocrity that pervades many organizations today.  "I think more folks should make level 5... lets make it easier..." That does nothing for the prestige of the Level, however thats a whole 'nother threads worth of discussion.

What are other PDO's seeing with Level 5 candidates?  Are there any Wing or Region PDO's and how do they apply the regulation?

[EMT-83]

The PDOs don't apply the regulation; they process the paperwork. The CC makes the call on approval. I can say that the Level V applications that I've seen approved have included service as course directors and region-level staff members.

I don't think the requirements for Level V have been dumbed-down or made mediocre. Perhaps the process is more subjective, but the "prestige" should remain intact.

[FW]

It is interesting that the requirements have been lessened. I think it should be mandated that one serve as a director of a course for level 5 (was the old standard).  But, then again, some get level 5 without NSC or equivalent training these days so...

[Eclipse]

The only thing that has been changed recently is the allowance for being on staff (vs. director) of most of the activities listed, and adding a lot more activities to the list.

I would personally like to have seen the required effort for director-level stay in place for something as rare as level V, but considering how inconsistently and rare some wings put on SLS/CLS, etc., it was artificially and unfairly restricting progression.

My wing does 3-4 a year and is happy to spread the wealth of director around.  Some only do one, and restrict it to a select few.

[sleepyboyd]

The PDOs don't apply the regulation; they process the paperwork. The CC makes the call on approval.

Ok, I could have used "viewed" i guess.  Most Commander's i've worked for look over at the PDO and say... "is this legit?" when it comes time to sign something.

I guess we will send the CAPF 24 up the chain then.  Thanks.

[ColonelJack]

It is interesting that the requirements have been lessened. I think it should be mandated that one serve as a director of a course for level 5 (was the old standard).  But, then again, some get level 5 without NSC or equivalent training these days so...

And that troubles me a lot, Colonel.  I earned my GRW in the early 90s, and since NSC wasn't an option for me I did Air Command and Staff College through ECI.  That was some pretty tough stuff, but it did help me get my thoughts in order to do the doctoral course work I'm doing now.  I think Level V should be harder to get, not easier.

Jack

[RiverAux]

I would personally like to have seen the required effort for director-level stay in place for something as rare as level V, but considering how inconsistently and rare some wings put on SLS/CLS, etc., it was artificially and unfairly restricting progression.

I have always thought that this requirement should show up much earlier than Level 5.  After all, putting on one of these courses isn't all that big a deal. 

[Eclipse]

I would personally like to have seen the required effort for director-level stay in place for something as rare as level V, but considering how inconsistently and rare some wings put on SLS/CLS, etc., it was artificially and unfairly restricting progression.

I have always thought that this requirement should show up much earlier than Level 5.  After all, putting on one of these courses isn't all that big a deal.

I agree - the effort isn't the issue, it was the lack of opportunity.

[NCRblues]

It is interesting that the requirements have been lessened. I think it should be mandated that one serve as a director of a course for level 5 (was the old standard).  But, then again, some get level 5 without NSC or equivalent training these days so...

That wouldn't be a small swipe at someone in-particular now would it? 

[RiverAux]

I would personally like to have seen the required effort for director-level stay in place for something as rare as level V, but considering how inconsistently and rare some wings put on SLS/CLS, etc., it was artificially and unfairly restricting progression.

I have always thought that this requirement should show up much earlier than Level 5.  After all, putting on one of these courses isn't all that big a deal.

I agree - the effort isn't the issue, it was the lack of opportunity.

I daresay that anyone really interested in achieving this level would have the gumption and know-how to get one arranged so that they could meet this requirement rather than waiting around for a regularly scheduled one.  After all there is no limit on how many of these courses can be held. 

[Eclipse]

there is no limit on how many of these courses can be held.

On paper, no.  In practice, not true.

Some wings artificially limit who and where can do these classes (gumption aside).