BDUs as CAP's permanent official field uniform?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've actually had one idiot tell me that he doesn't have to salute me, because I don't wear the AF uniform. He even claimed I was wrong when I showed him the reg!

Would you mind sharing the regulation that definitively describes what customs and courtesies apply to each uniform? This question came up just this week at my squadron and there was a difference in opinion on what was required.

Without quoting regulations, look at it this way.

Is an officer any less an officer if s/he is wearing BBDU's rather than BDU's?

You salute the brass, not the person wearing it.

[Hawk200]

Makes us all look "uniform", without creating an artificial "underclass"

....I really don't get why some people have to try to set up artificial distinctions.....

Your key word is there. People. The organization does not set up any kind of "underclass."

I'm still amazed that some in alternate uniforms try to claim this. You're not "underclass." No one that matters thinks so.

It also puzzles me that there are people here stating that we could do the job in any uniform. If it doesn't matter what uniform we use, why are people so hung up on being "uniform"? If the uniform doesn't matter, then we shouldn't have to worry about all looking exactly the same.

[davedove]

From CAPP 151 Respect on Display, pg. 5:

"Key Principle

When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP
senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.
Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher
in rank than themselves."


From CAPP 151 Respect on Display, pg. 6:

"When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it."

[Eclipse]

Makes us all look "uniform", without creating an artificial "underclass"

....I really don't get why some people have to try to set up artificial distinctions.....

Your key word is there. People. The organization does not set up any kind of "underclass."

I'm still amazed that some in alternate uniforms try to claim this. You're not "underclass." No one that matters thinks so.

We'll see about that in 2012.  If you have command staff at major activities wearing a blazer next to their subordinates
wearing USAF-combos, you tell me about whether there is an underclass of uniforms.  We've been here before to no resolution.

[MIKE]

From CAPP 151 Respect on Display, pg. 5:

"Key Principle

When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP
senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.
Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher
in rank than themselves."


From CAPP 151 Respect on Display, pg. 6:

"When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it."

The previous iteration of CAPP 151 as worded... not so much.  Just saying.

[Major Rob]

Further from CAPP 151:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and
courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all
uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).

More importantly, and the tack I use when confronted by somebody making the claim that we have a heirarchy of uniforms, NO WHERE in CAP 39-1 is any distinction mentioned or specified. If anybody can show me ANYWHERE in the regs where there is a distinction between the AF-style and corporate equivalents (notice the word "equivalents"), except for the polo shirt/blazer combinations mentioned above, I'll buy them dinner and the most expensive bottle of wine on the wine list.

I'll do it here: If anybody thinks we have a heirarchy of uniforms in CAP, show me *anything*, *anywhere* in the regs that mentions it.

BBDUs = BDUs. White aviator shirt = AF blues. Period.

If I'm wrong, show me. Otherwise, I'll continue to believe that people who want to set themselves above the "fat and fuzzies" (not exactly a complimentary description in itself) are jerks that I'd rather not deal with.

Just my humble opinion, of couse, and open to change, IF anyone can show me where I'm wrong.

[MIKE]

Historically speaking, there was a clearer division... back when you could wear BDUs and the sage green bag if you did not meet weight and/or grooming standards... but you could not wear grade insignia...  The aviator shirt also only had the blazer name tag with miniature grade on it, and the CAPP 151 of the time reflected this...  Then they put epaulet sleeves and badges, and later ribbons on the aviator shirt, and the CAP distictive Field and Utility Uniforms came out followed by the CSU.

[cap235629]

Why not adopt an OD Green BDU for
everyone? Readily available, not currently
used by the military, harkens to our past,
functional, rugged and has the tacti-kewl
look cadets crave? I was a fan of
Stonewalls proposal a couple of years ago
of an OD green ACU but think we should
go with a BDU cut uniform to mirror the
cut of the ABU or Multicam uniforms the
AF is adopting.

[BillB]

And what is the cost to cadets for the pickle suit? There are still BDUs floating around from AFROTC and other sources free for cadets. By the time the ABU is authorized, if it is, there should be a supply of them coming from DRMO or AFROTC sources. Whatever field uniform is mentioned, the cost to cadets is still in the $150 dollar range. If you want everyone in BBDU's the cost to seniors is about $100, but to cadets that require two sets for many activities including encampments, it comes to $150. So chances are you will never get everyone into the same field uniform or any other CAP authorized uniform.

[Earhart1971]

And what is the cost to cadets for the pickle suit? There are still BDUs floating around from AFROTC and other sources free for cadets. By the time the ABU is authorized, if it is, there should be a supply of them coming from DRMO or AFROTC sources. Whatever field uniform is mentioned, the cost to cadets is still in the $150 dollar range. If you want everyone in BBDU's the cost to seniors is about $100, but to cadets that require two sets for many activities including encampments, it comes to $150. So chances are you will never get everyone into the same field uniform or any other CAP authorized uniform.

The  issue of Cadets and Uniforms, makes me ill. CAP should demand more Uniform support from the Air Force for the Cadet Program.

AFJROTC and AFROTC get their uniforms in bulk at the beginning of the school year. Cadets entering CAP get them maybe 6 months later WITHOUT SHOES or BOOTS. Blue Uniform only.
I am tired of asking parents to spend upwards to $500 for Uniforms and equipment. AFROTC issues uniforms, and we have several missions in the field with Cadets being used. Why cannot we demand that cadets be issued BDUs. CAPs budget for running a natiionwide cadet program is AWFUL.

[Eclipse]

I am tired of asking parents to spend upwards to $500 for Uniforms and equipment.

Looked into your average hockey team or similar sport lately?

How about summer camp?

[Ned]

The  issue of Cadets and Uniforms, makes me ill. CAP should demand more Uniform support from the Air Force for the Cadet Program.

Why cannot we demand that cadets be issued BDUs. CAPs budget for running a natiionwide cadet program is AWFUL.

What a great idea!  I feel bad for not realizing that all it takes is a simple demand to make this happen.  Genius!

Here is the web page for the CAP-USAF commander, Col Bill Ward.  It has his bio and a "contact me" link on it for you to use to make demands.

Let me know when we can expect a couple of million dollars to fund uniforms for our cadets.

We sure could use it.

Ned Lee
National CP Guy

[lordmonar]

I am tired of asking parents to spend upwards to $500 for Uniforms and equipment.

Looked into your average hockey team or similar sport lately?

How about summer camp?

I paid over $300 for my son's Soccer Kit...and it is planned to change every two years.

$65/month coach's fees
$700 per year team fee
$100 per tournament
$1 per goal

Youth activities are not cheap.  We should be mindful of the costs involved and try our best to limit them...but there are costs with CAP.

[Short Field]

If I'm wrong, show me. Otherwise, I'll continue to believe that people who want to set themselves above the "fat and fuzzies" (not exactly a complimentary description in itself) are jerks that I'd rather not deal with.

I recently sat on a membership board interviewing a former SM member who wanted to rejoin.  He was already wearing his BDUs (with old FO rank and patches) and had attended previous meetings in his Flight Suit with AFROTC patches.  He hadn't been in AFROTC in years nor been a CAP member for years.  He was really hot to start correcting uniform violations among senior and cadet members.  He stated we should be pushing senior members who met H/W standards to wear the AF Style uniforms instead of corporate uniforms because it presented a more professional appearance.  This from a person who failed to advance in either the cadet program or senior program.  Duh.....

[NC Hokie]

Let me know when we can expect a couple of million dollars to fund uniforms for our cadets.

With all due respect, isn't this why there was such a big push for wing banker and the associated unqualified audit?  As a concerned member, I'd really like to what NHQ is doing to secure outside funding for serious needs such as this.

[Earhart1971]

The difference between CAP and Soccer is that we have Cadets performing a mission, and by the way, they are in the Air Force Cadet Program called Civil Air Patrol. Uniforms are provided to a similiar program AFJROTC and AFROTC.

Demands for Money: Guys, I have heard all the arguments before. CAP is so WEAK at recognizing its own value to the Country and the Air Force, we just don't have the goals or resolve to ask for anything. And now we can use the economy for an additional excuse also. Its a National CAP inferiority COMPLEX, its been going on for years. It is stuck in our minds, hey we dont deserve the same support as say AFJROTC or AFROTC.

AFJROTC is funded for one mission - a Cadet Program - their Cadet Program runs on 60 million per year. CAP and its Cadet Program runs on 2 Million maybe.

[Eclipse]

The difference between CAP and Soccer is that we have Cadets performing a mission...

Nope - some cadets participate in ES, however it is an optional part of the program not even included in the base curriculum.
The number of cadets never involved in ES far exceeds those who are, and the ones who ever actually participate in a real mission, is,
sadly, quite low in relation to the total cadre.

and by the way, they are in the Air Force Cadet Program called Civil Air Patrol.

Civil Air Patrol is not the "Air Force Cadet Program" - that would most certainly be J/ROTC or the USAFA, depending on your view, which are both programs supported and staffed directly by military personnel, with ROTC there is certainly some expectation of professional service.  ROTC is a recruiting program for the USAF, CAP is not.

Uniforms are provided to a similiar program AFJROTC and AFROTC.

Last I checked the USAF was providing most of the basic required uniform to our cadets.

[wuzafuzz]

Demand?  I don't think so.

Is it written anywhere that the Air Force requires CAP to wear Air Force style uniforms?  We are permitted to wear them, but that's where it stops.  I'll wager if we moved everyone to polo shirts today the Air Force would be just fine with it.  I certainly don't see the foundation for us to demand they do anything.

Does any cadet program outside J-ROTC actually pay for member uniforms?  Sea Cadets?  Army Cadets? Young Marines? Scouting? Explorers?

[Earhart1971]

AFJROTC pays for the entire setup, Shoes, and entire Blue Uniform, I estimate all that at about $140 per Cadet.

Whether CAP Cadets are in ES does not matter. AFJROTC has no ES Mission, they get uniforms FREE, they also don't have the dues expense. 

Comparing Apples to Apples, Congress favors AFJROTC in funding.

I think we should try and close the gap.

[Earhart1971]

Demand?  I don't think so.

Is it written anywhere that the Air Force requires CAP to wear Air Force style uniforms?  We are permitted to wear them, but that's where it stops.  I'll wager if we moved everyone to polo shirts today the Air Force would be just fine with it.  I certainly don't see the foundation for us to demand they do anything.

Does any cadet program outside J-ROTC actually pay for member uniforms?  Sea Cadets?  Army Cadets? Young Marines? Scouting? Explorers?

The Organizations you mention don't save the Taxpayers any money on Missions performed.