BDUs as CAP's permanent official field uniform?

[Major Rob]

Since the BDU is no longer an official Air Force uniform (except as a legacy with a "not to be worn after" date, does that mean that CAP could simply adopt the BDU as its permanent official field uniform and not have to worry about AF authorization?

In other words, rather than moving to the ABU or ACU at some point (which most people here seem to think will happen *someday*), why not just stick with the BDU and call it our own?

I'm NOT trying to stir the pot or kick a hornets' nest here -- I'm just asking a question, because I'm interested in what others might think. Thanks!

[RADIOMAN015]

Since the BDU is no longer an official Air Force uniform (except as a legacy with a "not to be worn after" date, does that mean that CAP could simply adopt the BDU as its permanent official field uniform and not have to worry about AF authorization?

In other words, rather than moving to the ABU or ACU at some point (which most people here seem to think will happen *someday*), why not just stick with the BDU and call it our own?

I'm NOT trying to stir the pot or kick a hornets' nest here -- I'm just asking a question, because I'm interested in what others might think. Thanks!

We need to transition away from anything that is camoflague type uniforms.  CAP is not an invading military force that needs to hide.  CAP means CIVIL Air Patrol.   Perhaps the current various blue BDU's, flight suits, etc might be best to keep as the most conservative, but even a transition to a bright red type uniform might be in order.   The transition should be to have a single utility uniform color for all CAP members, seniors & cadets, since it is in the best interest of CAP for marketing brand identity.  CAP Civilians should not be confused with actual military members at ANY time

HOWEVER, again, a concern is the quality of the utility uniforms other than military procured may be a challenge.

I'm perfectly happy wearing the various golf shirts and grey pants, with occassion use of blue BDU's and extremely limited use of the white aviator shirt/grey pants combination.    I've participated in AF evaluations that got outstanding ratings with just the typical golf shirt, so I'm hard pressed to think that BDU's ACU's etc have any real bearing on mission accomplishment, other than in the insecure eyes of some that CAP tends to attract as members. :angel:   
RM

[DC]

See thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9525.msg172112#msg172112

[Thrashed]

It is funny to wear woodland camo with an orange vest over it!

[RiverAux]

Did a poll based on this idea a while back - no one seemed to like the idea.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2490.msg45079#msg45079

[vmstan]

As has been said in the past: We need to figure out how to become more of a part of the Air Force team, not move ourselves away from it.

[Eclipse]

As has been said in the past: We need to figure out how to become more of a part of the Air Force team, not move ourselves away from it.

Yep - if the affiliation with Big Blue is to be maintained closely, then we go multi-cam (CAP will never see the ABU), wearing the same field uniform as the USAF becomes a "used-to", then we'll go with the Blue Field Uniform.

Absent the military affinity, we have no use for camo anything.  Gray tac pants with ANSI shirts would be more appropriate than anything we are wearing today for all of our missions.

[Al Sayre]

^^Non-concur  the one big use for camo everyone seems to forget is the recruiting aspect.  When we hold recruiting events with our cadets in BDU's we have a much higher interest rate than when we show up in blues.  If we lose the military uniforms for the cadets we might as well be the Boy Scouts, because in the eyes of our target recruiting ages there would be no difference.

[Eclipse]

The recruiting aspect is a legit issue, but not what you base your operational decisions on.

I admit that BDU's do attract our younger recruits, but effective programs and cool activities would do the same thing at a much higher retention rate.

[HGjunkie]

I was sucked in for 3 reasons:

-Pilots license

-Military Uniform (BDUs to be exact)

-The military aspect of the CP


We shouldn't discount that BDUs don't attract members, along with the Mil. aspect of the CP.

YMMV

[Earhart1971]

If only I could get "elected" Supreme Dictator of Civil Air Patrol. Then we would have a good looking BDU Combination that makes sense to transition to.

That is not going to happen.

So here we languish with opinions on what should be done. Cat herding. And laying down to the Wims of the Air Force and a CAP Uniform Committee at National.

BTW is the CAP Uniform Committee still in existance?

[Майор Хаткевич]

I was sucked in for 3 reasons:

-Pilots license

-Military Uniform (BDUs to be exact)

-The military aspect of the CP


We shouldn't discount that BDUs don't attract members, along with the Mil. aspect of the CP.

YMMV

BDUs were the initial hit on me as an impressionable 13 year old.

Eventually the military aspect/leading took over.

However there are those in CAP who get more interested in the AE, and kinda muck through the cadet program to get to the things they like, usually quitting before their time and not getting to "leave a mark" as a cadet. Probably why we should have a separate AE membership where those folks just show up on AE nights/activities. 

[Smokey]

I've found that many (not all) of the members who propose we move away from military type uniforms are those that are of the "Flying club" attitude rather than interested in service.  In talking to many (and some posts here) they want to fly cheap (even to the extent of flying sheep counting missions if they could) and find the relationship to the military to be an annoyance.  Usually you will find them flying in the polo shirt uniform because "that nomex flight suit stuff is just silly." They even dislike the blue flightsuit because it's all about cheap flying.

I know of one squadron with a G1000 aircraft that puts on quite a few hours....but rarely are they "A" missions.  Most are of the "C" variety flow as "proficiency (read pleasure) flights."  You rarely see them answer the call for a real SAR or ELT mission.  CAP is just a flying club to them.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm perfectly happy wearing the various golf shirts and grey pants, with occassion use of blue BDU's and extremely limited use of the white aviator shirt/grey pants combination.    I've participated in AF evaluations that got outstanding ratings with just the typical golf shirt, so I'm hard pressed to think that BDU's ACU's etc have any real bearing on mission accomplishment, other than in the insecure eyes of some that CAP tends to attract as members. :angel:   
RM

Your stance on "getting CAP out of AF uniform" has been reiterated and, I think, is quite well known.

However, you do not need to be insulting about "the insecure eyes of some that CAP tends to attract as members."  I hope you did not intend that.

There are people who are attracted to CAP for its military aspects, and in most cases they do just as good a job as the members who could care less about uniforms.  It is all down to the individual and said individual's motivation.

That said, I would be perfectly pleased to keep the BBDU and blue flight-suit style jumpsuit as CAP's work/field uniform, and I do agree that we do not need camouflage.

Other options could be olive-green BDU's in winter (a nod to our history) and tan BDU's for summer.

Change all insignia to navy blue rather than ultramarine.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've found that many (not all) of the members who propose we move away from military type uniforms are those that are of the "Flying club" attitude rather than interested in service.  In talking to many (and some posts here) they want to fly cheap (even to the extent of flying sheep counting missions if they could) and find the relationship to the military to be an annoyance.  Usually you will find them flying in the polo shirt uniform because "that nomex flight suit stuff is just silly." They even dislike the blue flightsuit because it's all about cheap flying.

BTDT, in a senior squadron where I was one of the very, very few non-pilots.  I was right-seat baggage (observer).

The circumstances were very similar to what you describe.  They would sign up their significant others as members so they could ride in CAP aircraft, but they did nothing else in the unit.  I would estimate we had probably 5-6 SO's as these members, which looks good on paper but isn't anything operationally.

When I transferred to the unit (due to a move) and wore the AF-type uniform (as I always have) they looked at me as if I was from another planet.

Many didn't even want to wear a polo shirt, let alone a flight suit (though some did, though not always with insignia)...their "concession" to "being in CAP uniform" when flying was to wear a CAP baseball cap.

[wuzafuzz]

I'm sure we all have our uniform preferences, but I'd advise caution when categorizing members' usefulness based on their uniform choices.  My squadron is a heavy duty polo shirt outfit; you won't find a uniform anywhere near most of our senior member meetings.  Yes, the uniforms do appear, properly worn, for activities, missions, and schools.  Of course on the cadet side it's nothing but uniforms. (Cadet and senior meetings are held separately since we are homeless.)

In spite of our polo shirt wear we are a very active unit, contributing mightily to CAP missions.  Our squadron boasts over 100 members, a substantial percentage of which are very active.  We are very motivated in ES, with a boatload of active IC's, branch directors, CUL's, GTM's and GTL's, etc.

Although I'm not a big fan of the polo uniform I see no correlation between uniform choice and effectiveness.  Pick the right clothing for the job and get r done!

BDU's?  Nothing to get excited about.  Cadets love 'em, but would love ABU's or multicam too.  If we wear camo to match our parent service, that's fine and makes some sense.  Otherwise it strikes me as a bit silly for our mission.  Having said that, I wear them.  They were free  and matching field gear is dirt cheap.  If I was starting out fresh I'd buy BBDU's.  I still might.

Edited to fix a typo or two.

[RiverAux]

I've found that many (not all) of the members who propose we move away from military type uniforms are those that are of the "Flying club" attitude rather than interested in service.  In talking to many (and some posts here) they want to fly cheap (even to the extent of flying sheep counting missions if they could) and find the relationship to the military to be an annoyance. 

I don't recall many, if any, members here admit to being "flying club" members so I'm not sure that your impression is correct. 

[Eclipse]

I've found that many (not all) of the members who propose we move away from military type uniforms are those that are of the "Flying club" attitude rather than interested in service.  In talking to many (and some posts here) they want to fly cheap (even to the extent of flying sheep counting missions if they could) and find the relationship to the military to be an annoyance. 

I don't recall many, if any, members here admit to being "flying club" members so I'm not sure that your impression is correct.

Yep - let's make sure we understand the positions and reasoning before making generalizations.  The Flying Clubbers disdain anything that isn't in their closet or that they "feel like" wearing, which is usually a well-worn t-shirt from Osh Kosh and shorts.

My desire for change and stability in the uniforms are (in this order):

Meets the mission requirements (which sometimes includes the most formal).
Makes us all look "uniform", without creating an artificial "underclass"
Maintains our military affiliation and history.

Any organization establishing uniforms or clothing wear regulations that does so outside of the above order, including the military,
is doing themselves and their membership a disservice, and as evidence of this I would point to the chaos that has been the
US military field uniform for almost ten years,

The issue with the USAF-style uniforms is that the respect and honor of wearing them comes at the price of dividing the membership
into two groups, while overly complicating what should be simple choices for clothing.  CAP isn't even afforded the full compliment
of options and articles, which means some choices that would make sense in a given situation are useless because a major component
is not approved.

The military affinity was a big attractor for me and continues to be a major part of the personal benefit of my service - not in the "wannabe mode", but in the "one team mode".  I also have the advantage of regular access to facilities and resources many members do not. However with all that said, and to head down well-traveled discussion road, I still maintain it is incredibly unfair to what is probably at least 1/2 the adult membership, that CAP is more than happy to accept and encourage high-tempo effort by members who are not afforded the same uniform choices as members who give 1/2 the effort but weigh a little less.

Like any survey or similar issue, the majority of the problem is the middle (pun intended) Throw out the top and bottom 10 percent and most of the "violators" are just typical middle-aged Americans who are healthy and match the image profile of their counterparts in similar organizations and government service.

[Major Rob]

Makes us all look "uniform", without creating an artificial "underclass"

I agree with this point wholeheartedly. I can't tell you how many times I've had other member try to take over during fall-in at the beginning of a meeting, claiming that my BBDUs are somehow not a uniform and only members in AF-style uniforms should head the senior flight and report to the commander.

These people obviously haven't read the regs, which state that ALL CAP uniforms are equal -- Period. There is no hierarchy based on style or type. If it's a CAP uniform and worn correctly, even the polo shirt uniform is the equal of the AF-style Class A's (if appropriate to the occasion, of course).

I've actually had one idiot tell me that he doesn't have to salute me, because I don't wear the AF uniform. He even claimed I was wrong when I showed him the reg! He's an arrogant, know-it-all jerk, but there are lots of those in life, aren't there?

As of today, I qualify as a "fuzzy," because my hair is about two feet long and almost reaches my waist. In October, I'll be donating my ponytail to Locks of Love, getting a mil-spec haircut, and then I'll be eligible to wear the camo BDUs (which I've already bought, by the way!).

I wonder what the jerk will do then?

I really don't get why some people have to try to set up artificial distinctions. We're all volunteers, giving of our time and abilities for the good of the organization. Jerks like this guy just serve to drive away people who might turn out to be valuable members. (In fact, I was at a Commanders' Call not long ago where somebody - not this guy - stated that we'd be better off without the people who don't fit the AF H/W standards! My reply? "Are you serious?")

I wish everybody would judge people by their contributions and not by the uniforms they wear. In fact, although I like the camo BDUs and keeping the symbolism of our relationship with the AF, I wouldn't be averse to going to BBDUs, just so jerks like I've described would be brought down a peg or two. Get them into the same uniform I have to wear right now and see how superior they feel.

This is why I think adopting the BDU as our corporate uniform would be a good idea, once the AF is out of the BDU business. Short of that, I would also agree that getting rid of it altogether would work, too. Whatever it takes to get us all into the same uniform would go a long way toward making us feel more like a team.

After all, that's why call it a "uniform," isn't it?

[UWONGO2]

I've actually had one idiot tell me that he doesn't have to salute me, because I don't wear the AF uniform. He even claimed I was wrong when I showed him the reg!

Would you mind sharing the regulation that definitively describes what customs and courtesies apply to each uniform? This question came up just this week at my squadron and there was a difference in opinion on what was required.