I am trying to buy some BDUs for encampment and CAPM 39-1 states on page 32 that if the BDU sleeves are to be rolled up, the inside fabric of the sleeve must match the outside camoflauge color of the BDU as shown in the right picture of the cadet.
I went to an army surplus store to look for BDUs but the inside was not camoflauged, it was just like a pale greenish because you could see through to the other side's camoflauge, but there was not camoflauge actually printed on the inside. I asked the guy that owned the place and he said he had never seen them before, but I've seen people in my squadron wear them and the person in the picture obviously has matching sleeves.
Does anyone know where to get these? Are they a CAP specific item? Thanks.
Cadet Nelson, what CAPM 39-1 is referring to is not the color of the inside or lining of the BDU --which for all woodland camo ones will be that pale green color-- but rather a technique for rolling (actually folding) up the sleeves of the BDU so as to keep the pale green lining from being visible.
I am not very adept at explaining that process, hopefully someone else on here can tell you (it's like trying to tell someone how to tie a necktie by email).
Good luck.
Ch. Don
*repost from Gruntsmilitary.com*
"Reach up inside the sleeve, a little above halfway, then grab the inside of the sleeve, don't let it go, now pull the lower half of the sleeve up inside out, 'til you're even with where you grabbed the sleeve from the inside, straighten the fold out before you start rolling, then with about 2, maybe 3 rolls up, with each roll snap it taunt, smoothing out wrinkles, 'til you come even with the sleeve cuff, then just fold the sleeve cuff back down over the rolls. Starch does help alot, but it's not necessary. "
So that it looks like: (on the right)
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/bdu-33_f-16_020529_07.jpg)
and not the marine way:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v290/bong003/DSC00241edit.jpg)
If you need more help just ask.
Thats not too bad of a job explaining that. :clap:
QuoteRolling the sleeves presents a neat cuff while the camouflage pattern remains exposed at all
times. It also provides quick recovery of the sleeve by pulling down on the cuff. Rolling of the
sleeves is only authorized in the garrison environment.
How to Roll the Sleeve
1. Pull the sleeve al the way up to the armpit so that the sleeve is folded over on itself with the
insides showing.
2. Make two folds upward toward the armpit.
3. Fold the cuff down over the folds you have just made.
Source (http://www.rotc.wustl.edu/Assets/PDFs/uniform.pdf)
See also:
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 2-3.1 Shirt (Long Sleeve) ... Long sleeve camouflage pattern
(woodland green) may be rolled up; if rolled up, sleeve material must
match shirt and will touch or come within 1 inch of forearms when arm
is bent at a 90-degree angle; may be removed in the immediate work
area. When removed, T-shirt (other than athletic or sleeveless style)
will be worn. Military creases are prohibited.
Emphasis added.
The proper folding of BDU/CAP field uniform sleeves:
1. With BDU shirt off, lay it out flat. Fold sleeve up until the end of the sleeve is about 3 inches from the top. Keep the seams laying flat.
2. Fold again, halfway up the sleeve, so that the two folds are of equal distance.
3. Fold the first part back over the second, keeping the folds crisp and even. This will expose the outer portion of the sleeve.
4. With arms bent at a 90-degree angle, the sleeve should barely touch cor come within about 1" of the forearm.
Hope this helps.
Thank you very much. Actually, as I wrote that question I was on my way to a second army surplus store and the guy there also explained it so thanks everyone!
Cadet, I am attaching a file that explains the whole process with photos. This was made for my SDF but it is the same for AF. Let me know if it doesn't post. I can email it to you.
[attachment deleted by admin- older than one year]
Cadet Nelson,
As nice as it is that everyone here provided multiple explanations, are you the only person in your unit?
Don't you have a Flight Commander, Flight Sergent, Cadet Commander, or Unit CC who has at some point done this and can show you?
Yes, there are people who could show me this. But I just got BDUs today, and I didn't realize I didn't know how until I tried to roll up my sleeves, and I was just trying to figure it out before next meeting so I could just show up and be ready. That's what this forum is for, right??
Good answer.
I don't see a problem with where Cadet Nelson gets his info from... If it's from his chain of command or here CAPTalk, as long as it's the correct info. Obvously where unit specfic standards may apply, seek guidance from your chain of command.
Since we are on the topic of BDU sleeves, what determines when the sleeves are worn rolled up or down? I understand the term uniformity and thought that all members wore them the same. However, the picture of the two active duty sargeants above show one with his sleeves up and one with them down. Is this at the members discretion/option or is this a command call? Is there a problem is some have them up and some down? If so, how do we explain the above picture? Thanks in advance.
It is a command choice. Being comfortable is also important too. However, I laugh when people say they are rolling their sleeves up because they are hot. Leaving the sleeves down will actually keep you more cool than if you rolled them up. Did you ever see pictures of people riding camels in the desert? They are allways pictured with long sleeves and usually 2 or 3 different shirts or overshirts on. Keeping the moisture (sweat) between your skin and clothes actually creates a barrier that will help lower temperature on the surface of the skin. Rolling sleeves is more mental than practical.
As "mikeylikey" said, it can be a command choice. A squadron commander can institute a local policy on when sleeves get rolled up and when they come down, simply specify that all members will do it uniformly, or specify always up or always down, etc.
However, in the abense of command guidance on this, it becomes the individual choice. I know a number of CAP squadrons that do not have a local policy in effect regarding the sleeves, so it's up to the member to decide if and when they want to roll their BDU sleeves.
YMMV.
We dictate for our squadron to ensure uniformity within the ranks.
Quote from: Pylon on May 08, 2006, 03:24:22 PM
As "mikeylikey" said, it can be a command choice. A squadron commander can institute a local policy on when sleeves get rolled up and when they come down, simply specify that all members will do it uniformly, or specify always up or always down, etc.
However, in the abense of command guidance on this, it becomes the individual choice. I know a number of CAP squadrons that do not have a local policy in effect regarding the sleeves, so it's up to the member to decide if and when they want to roll their BDU sleeves.
YMMV.
Lump my unit in with the latter. As a squadron commander (with an admitted toss to the AF way of life), I feel that uniformity is not compromised by up or down sleeves (and the AF Chiefs of Staff during my AF tenure seemed to agree.) Rather, I think that all things can be taken to an extreme and this MAY ("may," not "is") be an example of taking things a wee bit too far outta context (the sleeps up or down thing.)
I shudder at the notion that there might be a unit out there that prescribes the exact shade of black and width when considering which laces boots have.
If my cadet flight commanders wish to go to such extremes as having their flights do up or down, that's their call.
Some things, in MY OPINION, are best left to those that oversee others more directly than I (namely, my cadet flight commanders.) I do, however, stipulate to my folks that if a flight wishes to go up or down, it must be the result of a 100% agreement. I will not have a cadet that is seemingly freezing be forced to keep sleeves up in December, just because the rest of the flight thinks it looks more hardcore to keep sleeves up.
When my CAP folks are military personnel (paid to endure hardship), then I'll adjust the notion! :)
Eh, we don't go so far as to make sure everyone's eyelashes are the same length, but sleeves are noticable enough to make a distinct impression on uniformity.
My rule of thumb is if a civillian can notice it, then it must be looking professional. Uniformity in the sleeves can definetly be noticed, therefore important. MHO.
Quote from: Nathan on May 09, 2006, 01:20:43 PM
Eh, we don't go so far as to make sure everyone's eyelashes are the same length, but sleeves are noticable enough to make a distinct impression on uniformity.
My rule of thumb is if a civillian can notice it, then it must be looking professional. Uniformity in the sleeves can definetly be noticed, therefore important. MHO.
Be careful friend...there may be a flaw in interpretation here.
The crux of the issue is a difference between a connotation and a denotation and how the term "uniform" is used.
If people are "uniform" in appearance, then the denotation for "uniform" means "Always the same, as in character or degree; unvarying." That's impossible, given that we can't control eye color, skin color, character, etc.
So we toss that denotation for "uniform" back into the water and go fish again. We can't "uniform" people but we can deal with their CAP clothes; their "uniform."
Denotation here is dealing with clothes that are the same in appearance. We aren't discussing if the sleeves are the same in appearance...merely the physical components (caps, boots, tops, bottoms, etc.)
A BDU top is the same as a BDU top, regardless of whether the sleeves are up or down. Why? It's still a BDU top, even if it is inside-out. Thus....
We've reached the end of our little brain-pain with respect to separated denotations from connotations.
(As you can gather, specifics are certainly the order of the day...the lesson outlined here, however, is the fact that...
No two people's connotations are the same; command decisions (and in many cases, regular 'ole opinions in general) based upon connotations are highly flawed and can have more holes than Swiss cheese (which ain't so groovy.) Consider that the term "Diva" has a denotation and a connotation (female lead opera singer vs. a "Miss Priss.")
"Uniform,"
ironically, doesn't mean what some folks think it means! :)
I feel like I am in philosophy 101 again. ;D
Quote from: msmjr2003 on May 08, 2006, 10:00:01 PM
Lump my unit in with the latter. As a squadron commander (with an admitted toss to the AF way of life), I feel that uniformity is not compromised by up or down sleeves (and the AF Chiefs of Staff during my AF tenure seemed to agree.) Rather, I think that all things can be taken to an extreme and this MAY ("may," not "is") be an example of taking things a wee bit too far outta context (the sleeps up or down thing.)
Post BMT, only twice in my 15 years in the Air Force has it ever been dictated whether I wear my BDU sleeves up or down. First case was for a change of command. Second time was while I was going through NCOA. But then, it was cold enough that you really didn't have to tell us to wear them down. On a day-to-day basis, it's up to the individual.
Quote from: captrncap on May 09, 2006, 06:36:20 PM
I feel like I am in philosophy 101 again. ;D
Either Phil101 or Interpersonal Communications 018! :)
In all seriousness, command is a lot of work and I (personally) cringe when I see people's CAP experience being led by commanders that do the job by the seat of their pants/trousers or fall upon life experience instead of training AND life experience.
Whoa, there's my soapbox; I had wondered where it had gone... :)
My rule of thumb is.....in formation everyone should be the same. With that said....the initial inspection of a normal meeting night, I do not make an issue of it. Some cadets like them up and some like them down. If we were doing a parade or some sort where we wanted to more formal we would make them match.
On active duty we also have to contend with the tattoo issue. If you have a tattoo covering more than 25% of the exposed skin (IIRC) then you must wear your sleeves down. That means even if the command decided to wear them up you would not be able to do so.
Therefore....in formation we usually go sleeves down.
Some bases have a sleeves up window (usually May through October) where you have the option but just as many bases have no policy on it at all.