Especially shirt epaulets worn on a RAINCOAT. Not only does it make the wearer look like a moron who has no clue how a uniform goes together, but that slide on insignia was never meant to be exposed to the weather like that.
Also consider the lightweight jacket, where the top of the epaulet does not even detach, and we have to have some bizarre Velcro wrap around insignia made just for it
The grey slides on a shirt look just fine. But they are very obviously intended for wearing on a shirt.
I'm not even going to suggest what should replace it, I am sure there are a dozen good ideas out there.
The fact that we don't use pin-on insignia bewilders me.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 04:32:39 PMThe fact that we don't use pin-on insignia bewilders me.
We used to wear pin on insignia before the maroon at first and later grey epaulets were forced on us because of some member's misbehavior.
So do like CAP did in the early days, change the color of the epaulet itself on the Service Coat and use pin-on rank. Make it grey or make it maroon like on the USAAF style uniform.
As to outerwear, pin-on rank with a CAP cutout worn centered between the rank insignia and the epaulet button.
Grey slides on blue or white shirts and sweaters only.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 04:32:39 PMThe fact that we don't use pin-on insignia bewilders me.
Even more odd is that metal grade is still worn on the blue field caps.
Don't understand how this is still a thing, let alone ever was.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 04, 2022, 06:45:41 PMSo do like CAP did in the early days, change the color of the epaulet itself on the Service Coat and use pin-on rank. Make it grey or make it maroon like on the USAAF style uniform. As to outerwear, pin-on rank with a CAP cutout worn centered between the rank insignia and the epaulet button. Grey slides on blue or white shirts and sweaters only.
Changing the epaulet itself would be the best choice heritage wise but would also be prohibitively expensive.
Wearing a CAP Cutout on the epaulet along with rank was tried, but the USAF did not like it.
To anyone with actual military time, the slide on shirt rank worn on a jacket or coat makes you look like a moron.
However, doing research into this I find we have been wearing shirt rank on the coats for 30 years. I now have zero hope in this ever changing.
So if you're wearing the raincoat over Class A uniform as a senior, you're wearing ... three stacks of grade slides on top of each other?
Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2022, 06:52:47 PMQuote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 04:32:39 PMThe fact that we don't use pin-on insignia bewilders me.
Even more odd is that metal grade is still worn on the blue field caps.
Don't understand how this is still a thing, let alone ever was.
Which is my "The insignia already exists. Let's apply it elsewhere" M.O.
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 04, 2022, 07:13:11 PMChanging the epaulet itself would be the best choice heritage wise but would also be prohibitively expensive.
How so? I could have sworn I saw a conversion kit for an enlisted coat to officer coat that offered two epaulets, two buttons and the thread needed to sew them in place for less than twenty bucks at the Exchange.
This one even throws in the cuff piping for under thirty.
http://www.uniforms-4u.com/p-usaf-officer-jacket-conversion-kit-18231.aspx (http://www.uniforms-4u.com/p-usaf-officer-jacket-conversion-kit-18231.aspx)
Of course Vanguard has one too, at a higher price.
https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/civil-air-patrol-air-force-shoulder-loop-conversion-kit-officer (https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/civil-air-patrol-air-force-shoulder-loop-conversion-kit-officer)
A grey or maroon epaulet would be an easy do. It also has no effect on cadets, they could wear any color and not every senior has a Service coat. Technically a short sleeve shirt and trousers in light blue/blue or white/grey is all that is required.
Changing out or adding epaulets to Service coat would run about another twenty bucks at most tailors so say less than fifty bucks total for parts and labor.
That's not prohibitive.
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 04, 2022, 03:20:21 PMAlso consider the lightweight jacket, where the top of the epaulet does not even detach, and we have to have some bizarre Velcro wrap around insignia made just for it
Five minute fix: Unstitch the top of the epaulet, sew on some velcro. No need for those awful-looking shoulder marks with the velcro there.
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 04, 2022, 03:20:21 PMThe grey slides on a shirt look just fine. But they are very obviously intended for wearing on a shirt.
Over the years, the bottom of the shoulder marks has "opened up" a little to accommodate the service coat epaulet width.
When I get a set of shoulder marks intended solely for my shirts, I flip them inside out and add an extra stitch along the seam to tighten them up by about a quarter of an inch. Flip them right side out and give them a nice press between two clean pressing cloths. They look a whole lot more like many of the "new old stock" shoulder marks I have from the "before times" after that.
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on January 04, 2022, 07:36:26 PMSo if you're wearing the raincoat over Class A uniform as a senior, you're wearing ... three stacks of grade slides on top of each other?
Hmm. Yeah. Which is why if I'm wearing my service coat, I'm often not wearing shoulder marks on my shirt.
Quote from: NIN on January 04, 2022, 10:13:38 PMFlip them right side out and give them a nice press between two clean pressing cloths.
Careful on the heat, or avoid the insignia itself altogether, too much
heat will take the metallic sparkle right off of them.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2022, 10:16:33 PMCareful on the heat, or avoid the insignia itself altogether, too much
heat will take the metallic sparkle right off of them.
Spoken like a man with experience.
Same experience I have.
I once received a set of aircrew wings for one of my officer's uniforms. They were pre-sewn, and badly at that. I unstitched and went to "press out the creases" so they could be correctly folded. Well, one (badly) scorched set of aircrew wings later, I'm on Vanguard's site to buy another set for her.
And this was the "White on dark blue" days for the BBDU.
(https://i.imgur.com/sIGgMfU.jpg)
I was
tres unhappy with myself. Rookie move.
Quote from: NIN on January 04, 2022, 10:22:16 PMSpoken like a man with experience.
Sadly yes, with an epaulet sleeve.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 04, 2022, 09:44:50 PMChanging out or adding epaulets to Service coat would run about another twenty bucks at most tailors so say less than fifty bucks total for parts and labor.
That's not prohibitive.
Conceivably this would actually make things cheaper, as we could all use enlisted service coats which can be had SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than the officer ones. This is basically an enlisted coat conversion kit, just with different color epaulettes. But also requires access to a tailor to get it done.
Makes it easier to get a service coat too, since now you can either swap out epaulets on an officer coat or add them to the cheaper and more available enlisted service coat.
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 05, 2022, 07:19:22 PMBut also requires access to a tailor to get it done.
Doesn't need to be a military tailor, most police uniform stores and civilian dry cleaners have a tailor on staff that can complete the work.
Most towns in America have drycleaner/tailor shop/uniform store within commutable distance.
Lots of ways to skin this cat. Lots of ideas I've seen through the years. Go back to the pin on rank and CAP cutouts, epaulet color modification, shoulder boards... even seen something like the US army leadership epualet loops but placed under the grade insignia. I like all of these options (except the shoulder boards) better than grey slides on the coat.
... side note wouldn't mind if we did something about our shoulder boards too. The blue on blue gets lost and just looks boring to me. If you're gonna spend 40+ on shoulder boards at least make the braid a contrasting color... my 2 cents. Pardon the minor derailment there.
I wouldn't mind the 80's maroon slides on the shirt, with maroon epaulets and pin on rank for the coat, I think that would look sharp, and the red is a throwback to our early days. There would be absolutely no mistaking a CAP member for actual Air Force.
While we're on the subject, the Cadet Officer shoulder boards are hideous and always have been. The only issue there is a lot of Cadets have the NCO service coats, which the shoulder boards are compatible with, but for what they cost you could easily convert to epaulets and do pin on rank for them as well.
Quote from: Capt Thompson on January 06, 2022, 02:01:44 PMI wouldn't mind the 80's maroon slides on the shirt, with maroon epaulets and pin on rank for the coat, I think that would look sharp, and the red is a throwback to our early days. There would be absolutely no mistaking a CAP member for actual Air Force.
While we're on the subject, the Cadet Officer shoulder boards are hideous and always have been. The only issue there is a lot of Cadets have the NCO service coats, which the shoulder boards are compatible with, but for what they cost you could easily convert to epaulets and do pin on rank for them as well.
I'm on the opposite side. I think the maroon is hideous. The cadet shoulder boards on the service coat are visually a nice touch. I like the blue/black combo.
I still fully endorse pin-on insignia across the board, though. That is, unless a miracle occurred and we finally got OCPs and Velcro'd our way into the future...
Agreed as well. going back to the berry boards wouldn't be my preference either. Going back to blue on the shirt an pin on rank/cap cutout on the service coat would be a good option. I could be wrong here that the reason we deviated from that was from a bad apple or two, and not necessarily the USAF saying they didn't like it. I'd venture to say those involved in us getting hit with the maroon are long gone on both the CAP and USAF side, and there is precedence to ask the USAF to allow us to move back to that as its not a new uniform, just a request to return to an older iteration.
For added visibility maybe change the sleeve braid color on the coats if it is a major concern of the USAF for visibility? Red (not maroon) or Gold maybe?
Quote from: biomed441 on January 06, 2022, 04:31:23 PMFor added visibility maybe change the sleeve braid color on the coats if it is a major concern of the USAF for visibility? Red (not maroon) or Gold maybe?
Or just a contrasting medium-dark gray.
Quote from: biomed441 on January 06, 2022, 04:31:23 PMAgreed as well. going back to the berry boards wouldn't be my preference either. Going back to blue on the shirt an pin on rank/cap cutout on the service coat would be a good option. I could be wrong here that the reason we deviated from that was from a bad apple or two, and not necessarily the USAF saying they didn't like it. I'd venture to say those involved in us getting hit with the maroon are long gone on both the CAP and USAF side, and there is precedence to ask the USAF to allow us to move back to that as its not a new uniform, just a request to return to an older iteration.
For added visibility maybe change the sleeve braid color on the coats if it is a major concern of the USAF for visibility? Red (not maroon) or Gold maybe?
A red sleeve braid might not look too bad, and Vanguard already carries it
https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/civil-air-patrol-sleeve-braid-34-inch-wwii
Perhaps maybe we could borrow an idea from the USCGAux.
Their office holder insignia has a big "A" on the rank itself in Red for appointed office holders and blue for elected office holders.
USCGAux Office Holder Insignia (http://resource.d11nuscgaux.info/memprocess/insignia.html)
Perhaps we could do the same but use three red letters "C A P" across our ranks or just the red "A" as we are the USAF's auxiliary, and maybe use red enamel in our silver nametags on the service coat instead of blue.
I wouldn't mind if we changed the sleeve braid from dark navy blue (black) to grey or red (maroon). these would small changes that would make a big difference.
Then we could use pin -on rank on the Service Coat and outwear without issue.
Quote from: PHall on January 04, 2022, 06:30:49 PMQuote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 04:32:39 PMThe fact that we don't use pin-on insignia bewilders me.
We used to wear pin on insignia before the maroon at first and later grey epaulets were forced on us because of some member's misbehavior.
Well, that moron was the CAP National Commander. and his initials weren't AP, imagine that. Just be thankful Ma Blue didn't put us back in Berry Boards after THAT fiasco.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 06, 2022, 07:23:15 PMPerhaps maybe we could borrow an idea from the USCGAux.
Their office holder insignia has a big "A" on the rank itself in Red for appointed office holders and blue for elected office holders.
USCGAux Office Holder Insignia (http://resource.d11nuscgaux.info/memprocess/insignia.html)
Perhaps we could do the same but use three red letters "C A P" across our ranks or just the red "A" as we are the USAF's auxiliary, and maybe use red enamel in our silver nametags on the service coat instead of blue.
I wouldn't mind if we changed the sleeve braid from dark navy blue (black) to grey or red (maroon). these would small changes that would make a big difference.
Then we could use pin -on rank on the Service Coat and outwear without issue.
This would work great with CAP - just like the Navy uses for their civilian professional mariners in the Military Sea Lift. https://www.vanguardmil.com/collections/navy-military-sealift-command
Or wait...what if there was just no grade?
Nothing to PIN, nothing to sew, nothing to buy.
Done.
Next issue.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 13, 2022, 10:41:25 PMOr wait...what if there was just no grade?
Nothing to PIN, nothing to sew, nothing to buy.
Done. Next issue.
I support eliminating grade for a different reason. It totally confuses anyone from outside the organization who is attempting to figure out how CAP functions. Its like the grade is there for the same reason Patton had an invasion force in WW2, its camouflage so you can't tell who is really in charge
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on February 13, 2022, 11:00:31 PMQuote from: Eclipse on February 13, 2022, 10:41:25 PMOr wait...what if there was just no grade?
Nothing to PIN, nothing to sew, nothing to buy.
Done. Next issue.
I support eliminating grade for a different reason. It totally confuses anyone from outside the organization who is attempting to figure out how CAP functions. Its like the grade is there for the same reason Patton had an invasion force in WW2, its camouflage so you can't tell who is really in charge
You can give up your grade anytime you want to. Just fill out a CAP Form 2, check the Voluntary Demotion box and give it to your Commander. It's as simple as that.
This attitude is one of the problems with CAP as a concept.
Back to reinventing wheels. We lost the privilege of metal insignia in the late 80's when some a National Commander convinced the then National Board and Executive Committee to authorize a difference in the Grade structure without asking for AF's opinion or input. The grade insignia (Berry and Grey shoulder sleeves) are just the beginning
lesser impacts of that decision.
Filling out a CAPF 2A, eh? Seems to have been suggested to someone else on this site.
All these uniform changes and bling sure have been instituted by a bunch of folks interested in "ME before Mission."
Good ol Pineda and his type of ilk in CAP and Exec Committee and Natl Board sure have a hard time understanding the landlord/tenant relationship
IF we are a "Corporation" maybe we ask USAF for total civilian line of ES wear ( like hi Viz, many ask me why camo for SAR) maybe if we are "Premier SAR" organization we might want dress like one...you know see and be seen...
But common sense for the last 80 years hasn't been so common....when it comes operations and uniforms discussions
LOLOLOL
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2022, 01:34:43 AMThis attitude is one of the problems with CAP as a concept.
I'm glad you recognize you have a problem, will you seek help?
Quote from: armyguy on February 13, 2022, 09:45:46 PMThis would work great with CAP - just like the Navy uses for their civilian professional mariners in the Military Sea Lift. https://www.vanguardmil.com/collections/navy-military-sealift-command
I have never seen those before, thanks for the link.
That's exactly what we should do, change the little enamel bar to red or grey with silver edges and silver lettering and the initials "MSC" to "CAP" and we have the perfect pin-on insignia.
Even if we only got to use them on the trench coat and the blue windbreaker jacket, it would be an improvement on rank slides on a outer-coat's epaulets.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on February 14, 2022, 02:29:27 PMQuote from: armyguy on February 13, 2022, 09:45:46 PMThis would work great with CAP - just like the Navy uses for their civilian professional mariners in the Military Sea Lift. https://www.vanguardmil.com/collections/navy-military-sealift-command
I have never seen those before, thanks for the link.
That's exactly what we should do, change the little enamel bar to red or grey with silver edges and silver lettering and the initials "MSC" to "CAP" and we have the perfect pin-on insignia.
Even if we only got to use them on the trench coat and the blue windbreaker jacket, it would be an improvement on rank slides on a outer-coat's epaulets.
Don't forget the raincoat, where slide cloth ranks make no sense, and the fact the epaulets on the blue jacket are attached at the top, requiring special velcro non-slide-on ranks to be made just for that one uniform.
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on February 14, 2022, 07:39:24 PMDon't forget the raincoat, where slide cloth ranks make no sense, and the fact the epaulets on the blue jacket are attached at the top, requiring special velcro non-slide-on ranks to be made just for that one uniform.
I thought the Trench Coat and the Raincoat were the same thing, are there two different coats in the USAF and CAP?
As I don't own a Service Coat, I did not know it required a special rank slide for it's epaulet; I "assumed" that you just unbuttoned the Silver button and put the slide on.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on February 14, 2022, 07:54:46 PMQuote from: Dwight Dutton on February 14, 2022, 07:39:24 PMDon't forget the raincoat, where slide cloth ranks make no sense, and the fact the epaulets on the blue jacket are attached at the top, requiring special velcro non-slide-on ranks to be made just for that one uniform.
I thought the Trench Coat and the Raincoat were the same thing, are there two different coats in the USAF and CAP?
As I don't own a Service Coat, I did not know it required a special rank slide for it's epaulet; I "assumed" that you just unbuttoned the Silver button and put the slide on.
He means the lightweight blue jacket, trench coat/rain coat is called the all-weather coat.
Quote from: Jester on February 15, 2022, 12:50:22 AMQuote from: Shuman 14 on February 14, 2022, 07:54:46 PMQuote from: Dwight Dutton on February 14, 2022, 07:39:24 PMDon't forget the raincoat, where slide cloth ranks make no sense, and the fact the epaulets on the blue jacket are attached at the top, requiring special velcro non-slide-on ranks to be made just for that one uniform.
I thought the Trench Coat and the Raincoat were the same thing, are there two different coats in the USAF and CAP?
As I don't own a Service Coat, I did not know it required a special rank slide for it's epaulet; I "assumed" that you just unbuttoned the Silver button and put the slide on.
He means the lightweight blue jacket, trench coat/rain coat is called the all-weather coat.
Oddly enough, the USAF, and CAP, used to have separate coats. If you go back to the March 2005 CAPM 39-1, you will see the raincoat, which was a polyvinyl nylon jacket (funny when the wing patch was to be sewn on). Then we had an all-weather jacket and an overcoat. The USAF overcoat was really a civilian topcoat while the all-weather jacket was really a civilian overcoat. A trench coat is really a topcoat, which has fabric of 18 oz or less per yard. The overcoat traditionally had fabric of 30 oz or more per yard.
Quote from: LSThiker on February 15, 2022, 04:11:49 AMQuote from: Jester on February 15, 2022, 12:50:22 AMQuote from: Shuman 14 on February 14, 2022, 07:54:46 PMQuote from: Dwight Dutton on February 14, 2022, 07:39:24 PMDon't forget the raincoat, where slide cloth ranks make no sense, and the fact the epaulets on the blue jacket are attached at the top, requiring special velcro non-slide-on ranks to be made just for that one uniform.
I thought the Trench Coat and the Raincoat were the same thing, are there two different coats in the USAF and CAP?
No, CAP and USAF use the same coats. Used to be there was a raincoat, a topcoat and an overcoat. It was all simplified to a single all weather coat with a removable liner.
There used to be a cheap polycotton windbreaker for blues but it is gone now, what you have is an admittedly much nicer poly-wool jacket that's more like a sports team jacket. In fact a lot of the surplus ones you find have the USAF logo on the front and we can't use those, you have to find a plain one.
On those coats the shoulder epaulet does not have a button, it is sewn down at the top, and you have to use wrap around velcro rank sleeves on it.
Many of the surplus Air Force Lightweight Jacket have the Air Force logo on them because the getting the logo embroidered on the jacket is heavily encouraged at Lackland and the AETC Tech School bases.
Many airmen opt to get a new jacket once they reach their first assignment and the effects of the AETC brainwashing start wearing off.