Can a group commander force a commander to relieve a deputy commander, for no valid reason? Not a cppt issue or anything like that
For no good reason? Probably not.
With cause, yes.
The Group Commander is also in a position to start the process to terminate a membership, although it's usually poor form to do this without at least consulting the impacted Squadron Commander. I'm sure that the Group Commander could influence the Squadron Commander to replace the Deputy Commander.
hmm, 35-1 says,
QuoteA unit commander is authorized to assign personnel to specific duties and positions within his/her unit; remove personnel from specific duties and positions within his/her unit; and reassign personnel from one duty position to another within his/her unit.
A case could be made that any commander can remove anyone from any duty from any unit under their command, I've never heard of a Group/Wing Commander personally either assigning or removing someone as a squadron deputy commander or squadron staff officer slot.
Could the Group/Wing Commander order a squadron commander to make the change? Sure.
Does the commander need a good reason to remove anyone from a position over which they have control? Not at all.
Interestingly, the MARP wouldn't accept an appeal from a staff officer or vice commander that was removed from their position (35-8 5a)
Quote from: RiverAux on November 20, 2013, 01:33:12 AM
hmm, 35-1 says,
QuoteA unit commander is authorized to assign personnel to specific duties and positions within his/her unit; remove personnel from specific duties and positions within his/her unit; and reassign personnel from one duty position to another within his/her unit.
A case could be made that any commander can remove anyone from any duty from any unit under their command, I've never heard of a Group/Wing Commander personally either assigning or removing someone as a squadron deputy commander or squadron staff officer slot.
Could the Group/Wing Commander order a squadron commander to make the change? Sure.
Does the commander need a good reason to remove anyone from a position over which they have control? Not at all.
Interestingly, the MARP wouldn't accept an appeal from a staff officer or vice commander that was removed from their position (35-8 5a)
I have. And Im the guy who was asked to step in. I was told if I declined the offer, the squadron would be closed and disbanded.
Does he have the authority to remove a deputy commander?
Yes.
The Deputy CC is appointed by the Squadron CC....who is appointed by the Group CC.....ergo chain of command says "Major Smith, you need to removed Capt Jones and appoint a new deputy" is a legal binding order.
Now.....Capt Jones is well within his rights to challenge said order up the chain of command and via the IG system. But we all serve at the pleasure of those appointed over us.
Quote from: smilindrew on November 19, 2013, 11:49:17 PM
Can a group commander force a commander to relieve a deputy commander, for no valid reason? Not a cppt issue or anything like that
If there is no valid reason, why does group want the deputy removed? Does the deputy part his hair on the wrong side or something?
Tell the rest of the story. Let's not play 20 questions with drive-bys like this.
Quote from: smilindrew on November 19, 2013, 11:49:17 PM
Can a group commander force a commander to relieve a deputy commander, for no valid reason? Not a cppt issue or anything like that
You've also asked if Cadet Commanders can be appointed without a review board. So whats the who story?
Quote from: A.Member on November 20, 2013, 02:12:14 AM
If there is no valid reason, why does group want the deputy removed? Does the deputy part his hair on the wrong side or something?
Don't need one. If the deputy commander was a graduate of a rival high school that the Group Commander hated, he could remove him for that. About the only limitations relate to discrimination (against the groups CAP says you can't discriminate against) or retaliation. Group Commander hates redheds? Good enough.
However, I would suspect it comes down to a good old-fashioned personality conflict of some type --- assuming we aren't just discussing a hypothetical question.
There may be more to this than is being presented. Normally the GPCC's action would be considered meddling in the internal workings of the squadron. But there is a possibility that the GPCC is aware of something coming down the CofC that would impact the Squadron, or that the Deputy is the focus of an investigation. In either case Group must maintain silence until the matter is settled.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 20, 2013, 02:49:28 AM
Quote from: A.Member on November 20, 2013, 02:12:14 AM
If there is no valid reason, why does group want the deputy removed? Does the deputy part his hair on the wrong side or something?
Don't need one. If the deputy commander was a graduate of a rival high school that the Group Commander hated, he could remove him for that. About the only limitations relate to discrimination (against the groups CAP says you can't discriminate against) or retaliation. Group Commander hates redheds? Good enough.
However, I would suspect it comes down to a good old-fashioned personality conflict of some type --- assuming we aren't just discussing a hypothetical question.
Maybe he recommended a khaki Corporate Service Uniform up the chain. ;)
Not that I believe in this.
But Shuman, he was very vocal against a college degree for senior members?
Flyer
Can a group commander order a squadron commander to remove his deputy commander from the position without cause? Sure. Can he enforce such order? Maybe.
It really depends on how effective the squadron commander is and how far he's willing to go? The squadron commander has the authority to assign and remove members of his staff. He could refuse to remove the deputy commander. But the group can then remove the squadron commander. An IG complaint could be filed, but unless wrong doing can be proved, I'm not sure it would go far.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 20, 2013, 05:27:16 PM
Can a group commander order a squadron commander to remove his deputy commander from the position without cause? Sure. Can he enforce such order? Maybe.
It really depends on how effective the squadron commander is and how far he's willing to go? The squadron commander has the authority to assign and remove members of his staff. He could refuse to remove the deputy commander. But the group can then remove the squadron commander. An IG complaint could be filed, but unless wrong doing can be proved, I'm not sure it would go far.
Without commenting on the wisdom of doing this, I don't see how an IG complaint would go anywhere.
If the Group/CC gives a lawful order to a Squadron/CC under his/her command, and the Squadron/CC disregards that order, the Group/CC is free to relieve the Squadron/CC. Unless you can establish that the original order was in some way unlawful, failure to follow a lawful order is certainly grounds for relief.
Not sure if it's more interesting to realize that the person asking the question is the Unit CC.. who's apparently having a CV forcibly changed.
There was an instance some years ago where a region CC told a wing CC to replace one of his wing staff officers.
Wing CC refused.
Wing CC was replaced.
Is this sort of thing right? Often it is not...but it is possible.
Wing CC's are a different situation as they have a specific term and can only be removed through a specific process, not so for a unit staffer who is not the commander.
Quote from: smilindrew on November 19, 2013, 11:49:17 PM
Can a group commander force a commander to relieve a deputy commander, for no valid reason? Not a cppt issue or anything like that
Yes and you likely do not want to know the 'whole' and/or 'true' story.
<really good story goes here ... > But confidentiality agreement buffer blocks input. 8)
Quote from: Eclipse on November 20, 2013, 08:13:17 PM
Wing CC's are a different situation as they have a specific term and can only be removed through a specific process, not so for a unit staffer who is not the commander.
Relief from command (not staff or any other position) is an "adverse personnel action" that is subject to appeal, including to the MARP. Heck, there's even one case in the MARP records recently in Florida where they relieved a Group Commander, then disestablished the Group...the MARP found in his favour, but could not restore him to his command of the Group (but did order that his personnel record be amended to reflect his command of the Group through the date that it was disestablished).
My point was, if a wing CC can be fired for not following senior commander's directions, we'd better believe a squadron CC can be canned for not listening to group or wing commander!
I command a large group with a geographical area that is larger than a few wings. I as a group commander in that situation do not have the luxury of micromanaging each of my squadrons every personnel decision. If I had received adverse information on a member of a squadron, I would be talking with the relevant squadron cc and if needed, the affected staff member as well. I would not order any kind of a personnel change at a subordinate unit without real cause that could be documented and proven to a higher authority. I might suspend a member if the situation warranted it such as gross misconduct, pending felony charges, cadet protection issues, etc. but I would also work through the unit cc(unless it was him) in doing so. I would also make sure that I did my due diligence and proceeded within the limits of the regulations.
Do I as a group commander have the power to unilaterally remove a subordinate unit's staff officers or order the unit cc to remove them. Probably. But this is not something that I would do except in the circumstances described above. Remove someone because of a personality conflict when he doesn't work for me? No. That is bad leadership, poor exercise of command, and just petty. I don't have to like someone to work with them, for them, or have them work for me. But until they cross "the line in the sand" of misconduct or insubordination, removal or suspension is just an abuse of power.
We have no idea of the circumstances involved here and if we did, somebody is probably talking about things they shouldn't.
Ol' Fido has it right...my group had more members than half the wings in our region!
Did I have the authority, under CAP regs, to order the removal of a squadron deputy CC? I believe so.
I did not ever do it...nor would I, except under the most extreme circumstances...which in my view, would probably indicate I had lost confidence in the squadron CC, as well.
The only reason I could see this happening is if one of these "saviors" shows up from another wing or off the
000 / patron books with a history unknown to the CC but known to the Group CC or others.
A "not no but H-E-Double Hockey Sticks no" deal because of someone who dropped off or out instead of being term'ed or similar.
BTDT, it happens, but not very often, and I agree if there's an issue where a Group CC has a real problem with downstream staff
and has to go "under" the unit CC's head to remove that person, there's a confidence issue with the CC as well.