CAP Talk

Hello everyone it's been awhile since I've been on CAP Talk. I started a similar topic awhile back and have not been able to use my computer since.

At that time a couple people offered to help me post the picture via email (I'm still to new to do so). I am hoping someone might help me again.

I'm really intrested in what everyone has to say about this redesign of the ES patch.

Thank you!!

Post the image somewhere like Imageshack or similar, then post the link here using the I mg tags.

What new ES patch?

Self-initiated redesign by Mr. zonaman, apparently.

Here it is. . . thanks Eclipse.

[image removed]

The red border is for lives that have been saved.
The flaming sword represents the strength and integrity of CAP.
The wings represent CAP pilots.
The blue around the wings represents the sky.
The black backround represents lives lost.
The green banner represents land the ground team has searshed.

Tell me what you guys think.

Why the subdued colors?

What does the Sword and Flames have to do with Emergency Services?

Why USAF-AUX-ES.....why not just EMERGENCY SERVICES and put CAP somewhere inside the logo?

Finally....why?

Not that I like the Pluto Patch all that much....do we really need to change it?  I currently were mine...but I am not going to wear it on my next uniform.  I would not be against a move to just eliminate it all together.

Kind of ugly in general and I doubt the blue borders along the edge of the wings and sword would show up well on an actual patch. 
The USAF-Aux thing won't fly (so to speak). 

Inappropriate use of colors.

Inappropriate shape for an ES patch.

In appropriate use of the sword (we are non-combatant, especially in ES).

USAF Aux has already been removed from other CAP insignia.

I give you props for shaping the scroll...

Don't like it. Too many elements that aren't related to us. And I seriously doubt the mostly subdued colors would fly either.

I think our current ES patch is just fine, just wish it were a tad bit smaller. It's a homage to the original, and I like the original.

You all brought up good points.



Thanks everyone.  That's why wanted your input.

I hope this is fits for CAP. I tried to incorporate all the comments.

(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4696/new11.png)
By reillyhut (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/reillyhut) at 2011-07-12

I'll ask since I'm handy.

What's the intention for this?

I'm hoping to eventually get it sent it to national, not to replace the the ES patch, but to at least be an option.

It wont bother me if this patch never makes it, but it would be nice to have more of a modern patch option.
If someone other than myself gets their patch approved, all power to them.

I just wanted the opinions of everyone on CAP Talk before I send it up the chain.

Honestly, I don't see the point. It's great that you are taking initiative on something, but I don't think this is something really worth pursuing. It doesn't really do anything for us.

In that format it is doomed - shields are for HQ units, not qualifications.

Further, you should know that the ES patch is not universally loved, and a lot of us would like to see it retired completely, so if
a change were made, it is more likely it goes away than adds another option.

The patches harken back to a time when there were no ES badges for GT members, and I think the majority of us would prefer
that a general ES specialty badge were created for those non-operational ES specialties, and lose the T-34 and SARDog.

I get it. I didn't realize it was on the verge of being discontinued (or should be).

I keep hearing from people, and reading posts that not a lot of people like the "snoopy patch".
So I thought I would take the initiative by designing a newer, more modern patch that most people would like to wear on their uniform.

Also I didn't realize that about the shield patch. Should this ever happen, the patch needs to be the circle design with or with out rockers? or is there some other design I don't know about.

It's Pluto, BTW, if anything.

A disc would be more appropriate than a shield, but considering this is not a unit insignia, I'm not sure where this would fall in the heraldry guidelines.
Here's some resources:
http://www.usafpatches.com/pubs/afheraldryguide.pdf

http://www.afhra.af.mil/organizationalrecords/guide.asp

why not just make an ES version of the Communications patch and wear it in the same place (left pocket of BDU)

Quote from: cap235629 on July 13, 2011, 04:21:51 AM
why not just make an ES version of the Communications patch and wear it in the same place (left pocket of BDU)

In that format it is doomed - shields are for HQ units, not qualifications

I don't get it. Isn't the commutations patch a shield? . or maybe this is another 39-1 blackhole mystery.

Otherwise that's not a bad idea except that you would have to choose one or the other insted of being able to wear both. I still like the idea.

Looks like world of warcraft icons / spells / buffs
lol


+1000 search and rescue for 30 minutes

haha

Quote from: zonaman on July 13, 2011, 04:42:29 AMI don't get it. Isn't the commutations patch a shield? . or maybe this is another 39-1 blackhole mystery.

The comm patch isn't really a shield in the same manner as the MAJCOM style patch is. There is a subtle but unique difference between the two.

Badges on the dress uniforms are a different concept. Why? Because, somewhere along the line, someone said so. It doesn't make sense to a lot of us, but it just is.

Don't feel that you have to make a major change CAP-wide to make a difference. It's a worthy goal, but don't be concerned about it right now. Study up and do well, keep your uniforms sharp, and you may end up seeing something that you can change for the better.

Quote from: zonaman on July 13, 2011, 04:42:29 AM

Quote from: cap235629 on July 13, 2011, 04:21:51 AM
why not just make an ES version of the Communications patch and wear it in the same place (left pocket of BDU)

In that format it is doomed - shields are for HQ units, not qualifications

I don't get it. Isn't the commutations patch a shield? . or maybe this is another 39-1 blackhole mystery.

Otherwise that's not a bad idea except that you would have to choose one or the other insted of being able to wear both. I still like the idea.

Technically the Comm patch is a specialty patch. The ES specialty patch badge is not the same as the Pluto ES rating badge patch . If I am not mistaken, one cannot wear the Comm patch just for passing ACUT or qualify as MRO, one can only wear it after obtaining the Tech rating in Comm track. Same thing applies to the ES specialty patch (if made like the comm patch) vs the Pluto thing.

Edited: for transposed wording of patch and badge.

Do we really need an emergency services patch of any kind at all?

I don't wear mine. What's the point? I already wear the wings, the ground-team badge and the commuications patch (mine's the old-school one, unsightly-tacky but hey, I was the only cadet in the 1980s operating with an Air Force frequency authorization and running a national net). Doesn't that already say everything the ES patch would just embarrasingly repeat? Really, think about it.

Besides, the patch is just unsightly. And I mean both iterations, not just the Pluto one with the eyes that look mangled these days. There's just no need for it, other than to have another piece of silly "bling."

Also, the post above, which was written while this one was (funny how the "preview" button works), references something I've never heard -- there's a difference between the emergency services patches with the plane and with the dog. That's a new one to me.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 13, 2011, 03:30:01 AM
I think the majority of us would prefer
that a general ES specialty badge were created for those non-operational ES specialties, and lose the T-34 and SARDog.

+1

Quote from: Eclipse on July 13, 2011, 03:30:01 AM
I think the majority of us would prefer that a general ES specialty badge were created for those non-operational ES specialties, and lose the T-34 and SARDog.

Such a proposal is making its way up the food chain.

My preferences is qual badges for every qual,
but nothing for "just GES"

If every specialty has a qual,
and the GES patch/badge requires that you be qualified in GES plus something else
then the ES patch/badge is redundant



I'd like to see a "ground ops" badge for ground teams (not including gbd)
an "aircrew" badge/wings for nonpilot aircrew (scanner, observer, AP, ARCHER,etc)
"pilot" wings for qualified misison pilots
And a (one) MBSS badge for all the mbss jobs (including aobd and gbd, and all levels of IC)

I agree on the "no GES" badge.  GES is not a qualification, it is a pre-requisite to begin training.

On the base staff side there should be recognition of the difference between operational and non-operational roles.
If you're going to have a "branch director" badge, that's fine, but there should be one with wings and one with a GT symbol.
(You could just use the existing GBD badge and put a prop or wings in the middle).

Otherwise you could do the same variations on that theme for the others, but I would say a generic mission base staff is
enough.  Perhaps Comms should have a unique one.

oh i guess i failed to add to my above pipe dream,

the star and wreath would not be given for "echelons" of positions,
but rather for time and experience (numbers of hours and sorties, and number of years fully qualified)
like they already are, for pilots


I would not remove the requirement to have been an MO or MP for AOBD
nor to have been a GTL from GBD.  So those people, having rightly earned them, could still wear their GT badge or Wings, even if they were standing in the mission base at this time.

Or they could (having rightly earned it) choose to wear the same "mission base staff" badge as section chiefs, MSA, MRO, CUL, FLM, FLS, safety, chaplain, pio, and IC

If you allow "wings plus one" they could even wear both.  Wings on top, of course.

Quote from: vento on July 13, 2011, 06:26:25 AM
If I am not mistaken, one cannot wear the Comm patch just for passing ACUT or qualify as MRO, one can only wear it after obtaining the Tech rating in Comm track.

That is correct. A popular misconception is that members may wear the comm badge once BCUT/ACUT or MRO requirements have been met - and that's not the way it works. You gotta have that comm tech rating IAW CAPP 214 to wear it.

I think that if want to have a more capable emergency services force; we need to tie in specialty tracks with ES quals.


Example: Logistics PD track- Mission logistics

Quote from: eaker.cadet on July 13, 2011, 04:33:05 PM
I think that if want to have a more capable emergency services force; we need to tie in specialty tracks with ES quals.


Example: Logistics PD track- Mission logistics

So where do you tie in Cadet Programs? AE? Personnel?

What specialty track would GT be tied to?

Quote from: coudano on July 13, 2011, 03:57:52 PM
oh i guess i failed to add to my above pipe dream,

the star and wreath would not be given for "echelons" of positions,
but rather for time and experience (numbers of hours and sorties, and number of years fully qualified)
like they already are, for pilots

If each ES qual had its own badge, then that would make sense. With all the base staff personnel using the same badge, it doesn't make sense.

Quote from: arajca on July 13, 2011, 06:21:53 PM

Quote from: eaker.cadet on July 13, 2011, 04:33:05 PM
I think that if want to have a more capable emergency services force; we need to tie in specialty tracks with ES quals.


Example: Logistics PD track- Mission logistics

So where do you tie in Cadet Programs? AE? Personnel?

What specialty track would GT be tied to?

If he only worried about finance/admin, admin, logistics, public affairs, and comms (the stuff that we have in common with ICS) it  makes fine sense.

Quote from: arajca on July 13, 2011, 06:25:44 PM

Quote from: coudano on July 13, 2011, 03:57:52 PM
oh i guess i failed to add to my above pipe dream,

the star and wreath would not be given for "echelons" of positions,
but rather for time and experience (numbers of hours and sorties, and number of years fully qualified)
like they already are, for pilots

If each ES qual had its own badge, then that would make sense. With all the base staff personnel using the same badge, it doesn't make sense.

It makes sense to me, if your badge describes the "type", "nature" and "locatoin" of work you do.
And the star and wreath describe how much time and experience you have doing work of that type.

The "gt" badge means that you go get in a van, leave base, and work out in the field.
This includes GTM3, 2, 1, GTL, and UDF

The pilot and mission aircrew badges means that you get in an airplane, and go fly up in the sky.
This includes MP, TMP, MO, MS, AP, ARCHER, etc(?)

The mission base badge means that you work in and around the mission base.
IC, Senior Staff, Branch Directors, Section Chiefs, Comm, and staff assistants

You know....of all the useless bling we put on our BDUs and BBDUs the ES patch has got to rank right up there (right after the U.S. Flag).

First off....why sinlge out ES?

Is there a CP patch or an AE patch?

If you are at the mission base in BDUs...I am going to assume that you are in fact part of the ES team.
So it is multiply redundant redundant.

The Comm Patch is not the same....because CAP Comm is NOT ES.....even though we use their stuff for ES. 

So like I said.....next uniform I am not going to put an ES patch on.

I figure if you really want a badge that reflects your ES Quals, put your 101 Card in a plastic badge holder and clip it to your shirt.  Problem solved...

What do you wear if you're qualified to do just about everything?  I'm an IC1 and about the only qual I don't have is Mission Chaplain.  I'm not going to keep changing my shirt everytime I'm doing a different job at Mission Base or when I fly or when I'm out doing a UDF ELT search at the local airport.  Using qualification badges to tell people your function is not really practical.  Those of us who do a lot of different functions would need a boy scout type merit badge sash just to wear all of them.  That's why we have lanyards and position badges and name plates on the desks.

Quote from: arajca on July 13, 2011, 06:21:53 PM

Quote from: eaker.cadet on July 13, 2011, 04:33:05 PM
I think that if want to have a more capable emergency services force; we need to tie in specialty tracks with ES quals.


Example: Logistics PD track- Mission logistics

So where do you tie in Cadet Programs? AE? Personnel?

What specialty track would GT be tied to?

Not all of them would be tied in

Logistics
Finance
Admin/Personell
Ops
Communications
Safety
Health Services
IT

Quote from: Al Sayre on July 13, 2011, 07:25:24 PM
I figure if you really want a badge that reflects your ES Quals, put your 101 Card in a plastic badge holder and clip it to your shirt.  Problem solved...

What do you wear if you're qualified to do just about everything?  I'm an IC1 and about the only qual I don't have is Mission Chaplain.  I'm not going to keep changing my shirt everytime I'm doing a different job at Mission Base or when I fly or when I'm out doing a UDF ELT search at the local airport.  Using qualification badges to tell people your function is not really practical.  Those of us who do a lot of different functions would need a boy scout type merit badge sash just to wear all of them.  That's why we have lanyards and position badges and name plates on the desks.

The BSA has figured it out ;D

Quote from: Al Sayre on July 13, 2011, 07:25:24 PMWhat do you wear if you're qualified to do just about everything? 

The "jack of all trades, master of none badge".

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cN5jOprtOHM/TZ2iTkb9iRI/AAAAAAAABUU/xUjBFyQscQE/s1600/jack_of_all_trades.gif)

If'n you really want a badge for ES vs. the patch:  establish ONE ES badge that is awarded for GES + one ES qual.

Wear ONLY if not superceded by another qual's badge, i.e. GT, IC, Observer.

Bonus points if it's not butt ugly like the GT badge.

Alternative: Implement a ribbon similar to the USAF Combat Readiness Medal.  Call it the Emergency Services Readiness Medal.  Award it, like the USAF version, at the end of 24 months of maintaining an ES qual above GES. 

The problem with a ribbon it is wouldn't be worn on field uniforms, flight suits, or even the golf shirt as ES badges are today.
Kinda defeats the purpose.

Alright I'm jumping on board. . .

Down with the patch!
I don't wear mine eather, so I wasn't looking at the patch like bling but I guess it kinda is. Also I don't remember ever seeing the AF wear a patch in that spot on their BDU's, unless they used to and it just carried over with CAP.

I would submit that the badge serves no purpose either.  The 101 card is the guiding document for what a member is qualified and current to do on agiven mission.  Badges/patches/ribbons are naught but bling to look pretty.

Many would say that about any and all uniforms.

I'm all for a ES communications badge, although I will concede I don't need it.  The two or three radios and speaker mics I'm wearing are usually a dead giveaway.  Add a notepad and a "where the heck did the AOBD disappear to this time" look and you know I'm a CUL at the moment  ;D

Once upon a time I was an avid patch collector.  So I have an ES Pluto patch.  It's resting quietly on a shelf in my closet.  It is not currently, never has been, and never will be, attached to any of my uniforms.

We currently have a mish-mash of insignia because every few years someone decides we need to recognize some qualification or achievement and they get a badge or patch or pin approved that bears no relation to any other bell, whistle, bangle, or gong we wear.

I would be happy if someone would set down and come up with a uniform system of 1)Aeronautical Badges, 2)ES Qual Badges(of similar size and design, and 3) Specialty Track/Occupational Badges(again of similar shape and design).

You would be able to wear one of each on your blues( Aero and ES above the ribbons and ST/Occ. on the pocket like we do now. On the BDUs/Utilities/Flight Uniforms you would just wear the Aero and ES badges. So the ES patch and the comm patch would both go away.

If you were a lawyer, chaplain, MD, Nurse, etc those professional badges would stay and be worn in place of the ES badge on any uniform. The EMT badge could be redesigned to look more uniform with these as well since we don't have a medical ES qual.

Just my .02.

And while they've got Photoshop or Illustrator open, fix the IC badge, which looks like it was cut and pasted with literally scissors and tape.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 14, 2011, 12:46:20 AM
looks like it was cut and pasted with literally scissors and tape.

Excuse me, Sir, but I don't believe one can paste with tape  ;D

just kidding. I agree that the "Pluto" ES patch needs to be 86ed. Specifically, I like the system that ol'fido laid out. A badge for the stuff that you are qualified to do, so that somebody can look at you and say "Oh, he can help me with           ". At least I think that's what badges were originally meant to do   :D

Since we are talking about patches and badges . . .

Can anyone tell me why the flag patch is still on our uniform. I love and respect our flag, but it's not part of the regular AF uniform that I know of. I know it's there so we are not mixed up with the Mexican Army (T.P.). I'm just surprised it was never removed when the " US Civil Air Patrol" tapes were axed.

>edit<
I also agree that the patches and badges need to be streamlined. It's as if a bunch of random people were just told "create this and don't look at what anyone else is doing". Especially the Specialty Track Badges, I wonder who ever designed then ever saw an AF occupation badge. (I am assuming CAP Speciality Track's would be similar to them)

Quote from: ol'fido on July 14, 2011, 12:41:07 AM
I would be happy if someone would set down and come up with a uniform system of 1)Aeronautical Badges, 2)ES Qual Badges(of similar size and design, and 3) Specialty Track/Occupational Badges(again of similar shape and design).

arajca has done exactly that for ES and aeronautical insignia and his proposal is winding its way through ye olde chain of command.  I've seen his proposal and liked it.  It didn't address specialty tracks if I recall correctly.

Quote from: zonaman on July 14, 2011, 02:28:49 AM
Since we are talking about patches and badges . . .

Can anyone tell me why the flag patch is still on our uniform. I love and respect our flag, but it's not part of the regular AF uniform that I know of. I know it's there so we are not mixed up with the Mexican Army (T.P.). I'm just surprised it was never removed when the " US Civil Air Patrol" tapes were axed.

Oh snap, a flag on an Air Force uniform!
(http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/110701-F-HF922-404.jpg)

Quote from: MIKE on July 14, 2011, 02:35:15 AM

Quote from: zonaman on July 14, 2011, 02:28:49 AM
Since we are talking about patches and badges . . .

Can anyone tell me why the flag patch is still on our uniform. I love and respect our flag, but it's not part of the regular AF uniform that I know of. I know it's there so we are not mixed up with the Mexican Army (T.P.). I'm just surprised it was never removed when the " US Civil Air Patrol" tapes were axed.

Oh snap, a flag on an Air Force uniform!
(http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/110701-F-HF922-404.jpg)

I was talking about the regular AF uniform (ABU's) - Not the overseas uniform.

I give you props - that was pretty good. Is that your uniform?

Quote from: zonaman on July 13, 2011, 10:55:51 PM
Also I don't remember ever seeing the AF wear a patch in that spot on their BDU's, unless they used to and it just carried over with CAP.

I did while active duty Air Force. Seems like the last time I wore one over the nametape was back in '97. The final assignment I had didn't have one, so I only wore MAJCOM and a wing patch. Don't recall if the three patch configuration died off at a given point, or if they just dropped with the adoption of the ABU.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on July 14, 2011, 02:32:50 AM

Quote from: ol'fido on July 14, 2011, 12:41:07 AM
I would be happy if someone would set down and come up with a uniform system of 1)Aeronautical Badges, 2)ES Qual Badges(of similar size and design, and 3) Specialty Track/Occupational Badges(again of similar shape and design).

arajca has done exactly that for ES and aeronautical insignia and his proposal is winding its way through ye olde chain of command.  I've seen his proposal and liked it.  It didn't address specialty tracks if I recall correctly.

To roll specialty track badges in would be too much for one proposal.

Quote from: zonaman on July 14, 2011, 02:28:49 AM

Can anyone tell me why the flag patch is still on our uniform. I love and respect our flag, but it's not part of the regular AF uniform that I know of. I know it's there so we are not mixed up with the Mexican Army (T.P.). I'm just surprised it was never removed when the " US Civil Air Patrol" tapes were axed.

Lunch at work: grilling elk steaks from Montana and ahi from Wake Island - the AD major (now LtCol) in the green bag worked in my office until a couple of months ago.  Looks like a flag on his shoulder.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6133/5936609860_1e6baf7d95.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/65183255@N05/5936609860/)

Quote from: coudano on July 13, 2011, 06:30:27 PM

Quote from: arajca on July 13, 2011, 06:21:53 PM

Quote from: eaker.cadet on July 13, 2011, 04:33:05 PM
I think that if want to have a more capable emergency services force; we need to tie in specialty tracks with ES quals.


Example: Logistics PD track- Mission logistics

So where do you tie in Cadet Programs? AE? Personnel?

What specialty track would GT be tied to?

If he only worried about finance/admin, admin, logistics, public affairs, and comms (the stuff that we have in common with ICS) it  makes fine sense.

That's the problem. Everybody has to have a badge and then all of a sudden everyone looks like a third world dictoator with badges on both sides of their uniforms. It's almost like the guy that dreamed uf the cadet ribbons from the 60s came back with a collection of enameled badges. Guess you can't tell I have an aversion to enamed badges. I won't wear any of the CAP ones...not just because there isn't any room on what I prefer to be a conservative dress uniform. It's because some of them look so silly on a military uniform.

I wish those who dreamed up the specality badge for every specialty would have just considered one badge as a broad spectrum speciality qualification badge and then concentrated on a similar badge that accomodated those ES specialities sans insignia like flight line marshallers.

Here's the thing, in other sections of CAP Talk, there has been a discussion about the MEMS program...to which, I qualified as a CAP officer. The badge itself is a 'general ES badge' and if the program is ever adopted by CAP, it would solve that problem.

One more thing. Although I respect the ES Patch and have preferred to wear the oval one on a baseball cap, why hasn't anyone ever considered tabs like ES or CERT, or something similar to be worn on the flight suits or BDUs over a wing patch?

Finally, here's another suggestion about the proposed ES Patch. Drop the OD scroll. Make it white with blue letters and why not consider making it a nationally recognized "special missions" patch. There isn't one for those crews. Wings did their own and because it was a locally approved patch, it could never legally be worn on a flight suit.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 14, 2011, 03:24:02 AM

Quote from: zonaman on July 13, 2011, 10:55:51 PM
Also I don't remember ever seeing the AF wear a patch in that spot on their BDU's, unless they used to and it just carried over with CAP.

I did while active duty Air Force. Seems like the last time I wore one over the nametape was back in '97. The final assignment I had didn't have one, so I only wore MAJCOM and a wing patch. Don't recall if the three patch configuration died off at a given point, or if they just dropped with the adoption of the ABU.

Here is a set of DCU's to show. I've seen units that are attached to the army wear the flag on the shoulder in BDU's like we do here in CAP.

Quote from: Littleguy on July 14, 2011, 12:46:58 PMHere is a set of DCU's to show. I've seen units that are attached to the army wear the flag on the shoulder in BDU's like we do here in CAP.

My post didn't address flags, only patches worn over the nametape. I related my own experience on that.

That being said, flags were sometimes worn on BDUs by Air Force when deployed, sometimes they weren't. It seemed so inconsistent that I don't even know what the policy actually was.

The Army wore when deployed so consistently that they just mandated it on the ACU. Since just about everyone was going to be deployed, it was a perfectly reasonable addition to the latest utility uniform.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 14, 2011, 03:49:08 PM

Quote from: Littleguy on July 14, 2011, 12:46:58 PMHere is a set of DCU's to show. I've seen units that are attached to the army wear the flag on the shoulder in BDU's like we do here in CAP.

My post didn't address flags, only patches worn over the nametape. I related my own experience on that.

That being said, flags were sometimes worn on BDUs by Air Force when deployed, sometimes they weren't. It seemed so inconsistent that I don't even know what the policy actually was.

The Army wore when deployed so consistently that they just mandated it on the ACU. Since just about everyone was going to be deployed, it was a perfectly reasonable addition to the latest utility uniform.

Units/members directly attacked to ARMY units are allowed to wear their uniforms or wear USAF uniforms in ARMY configuaration.
Hence the flag on athe multicams and the combat unit patch on USAF uniforms.

Back in my Bosnia Days.....everyone deploying on the AEF wore a U.S. Flag.  The USAF made us take it off when back in garrison.  The Army just decided to wear it all the time.

The Flag on the CAP uniform came after katrina.  Lots of rumors of why...which I will not repeat.....but there it is.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 14, 2011, 03:49:08 PM

Quote from: Littleguy on July 14, 2011, 12:46:58 PMHere is a set of DCU's to show. I've seen units that are attached to the army wear the flag on the shoulder in BDU's like we do here in CAP.

My post didn't address flags, only patches worn over the nametape. I related my own experience on that.

That being said, flags were sometimes worn on BDUs by Air Force when deployed, sometimes they weren't. It seemed so inconsistent that I don't even know what the policy actually was.

The Army wore when deployed so consistently that they just mandated it on the ACU. Since just about everyone was going to be deployed, it was a perfectly reasonable addition to the latest utility uniform.

Oops, I was just going for zonaman, my bad.

My last deployment I wore ACU's with a IR flag patch as USAF. I havent hit 100 posts yet or I would attach a photo.

Quote from: GroundHawg on July 15, 2011, 07:40:51 PM
My last deployment I wore ACU's with a IR flag patch as USAF. I havent hit 100 posts yet or I would attach a photo.

I've got one of those still. Turns out it's on my issue list. Never wore it, so they won't have any problem reissuing it.

Quote from: MIKE on July 14, 2011, 02:35:15 AM

Quote from: zonaman on July 14, 2011, 02:28:49 AM
Since we are talking about patches and badges . . .

Can anyone tell me why the flag patch is still on our uniform. I love and respect our flag, but it's not part of the regular AF uniform that I know of. I know it's there so we are not mixed up with the Mexican Army (T.P.). I'm just surprised it was never removed when the " US Civil Air Patrol" tapes were axed.

Oh snap, a flag on an Air Force uniform!
(http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/110701-F-HF922-404.jpg)

Oh snap! That's NOT an Air Force uniform. That's an Army uniform with USAF insignia because the person wearing it is attached to an Army unit and is authorized (I hope) to wear it. Although I'm pretty sure I read regs that prohibit any airmen, including combat airment from wearing other branch's uniforms past ABU rollout. Either way, that's not an Air Force uniform.

Wrong George... Go update yourself on the policy on OCP for USAF units in the 'stan.  You could start where the picture comes from.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 14, 2011, 07:40:50 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 14, 2011, 03:49:08 PM

Quote from: Littleguy on July 14, 2011, 12:46:58 PMHere is a set of DCU's to show. I've seen units that are attached to the army wear the flag on the shoulder in BDU's like we do here in CAP.

My post didn't address flags, only patches worn over the nametape. I related my own experience on that.

That being said, flags were sometimes worn on BDUs by Air Force when deployed, sometimes they weren't. It seemed so inconsistent that I don't even know what the policy actually was.

The Army wore when deployed so consistently that they just mandated it on the ACU. Since just about everyone was going to be deployed, it was a perfectly reasonable addition to the latest utility uniform.

Correction: Combat Airmen attached to Army units WERE allowed to wear full Army uniforms with USAF markings. They aren't anymore. Once issued ABU, an airman, including combat airmen, must wear the ABU and not the sister service's uniform. That includes Special Tactics, Pararescue, Combat Weather, TACP, TCC, everyone. Now, do they follow those regs? That's another story.
Units/members directly attacked to ARMY units are allowed to wear their uniforms or wear USAF uniforms in ARMY configuaration.
Hence the flag on athe multicams and the combat unit patch on USAF uniforms.

Back in my Bosnia Days.....everyone deploying on the AEF wore a U.S. Flag.  The USAF made us take it off when back in garrison.  The Army just decided to wear it all the time.

The Flag on the CAP uniform came after katrina.  Lots of rumors of why...which I will not repeat.....but there it is.

Quote from: MIKE on July 16, 2011, 02:27:00 AM
Wrong George... Go update yourself on the policy on OCP for USAF units in the 'stan.  You could start where the picture comes from.

I stand corrected. As of March, all Airmen deploying to Afghanistan are wearing multi-cam.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 13, 2011, 06:29:05 AM
Do we really need an emergency services patch of any kind at all?

We could go all the way, and adopt the PRC People's Liberation Army standard of not having any insignia whatsoever.

The standard didn't work.

So, YES, we need an ES patch.  If nothing else, when non-CAP types see the words "Emergency Services" they get an instant impression that maybe we're not Boy Scouts.

I like Pluto better than the T-34, but either one is good.

Quote from: Buzz on July 17, 2011, 07:12:08 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 13, 2011, 06:29:05 AM
Do we really need an emergency services patch of any kind at all?

We could go all the way, and adopt the PRC People's Liberation Army standard of not having any insignia whatsoever.

The standard didn't work.

So, YES, we need an ES patch.  If nothing else, when non-CAP types see the words "Emergency Services" they get an instant impression that maybe we're not Boy Scouts.

I like Pluto better than the T-34, but either one is good.

The public isn't smart enough to read the bright white on blue nametapes to know we're not in the Army. What makes you think they'd read the ES patch with even smaller text and actually comprehend it?

Quote from: afgeo4 on July 16, 2011, 02:32:23 AM

Quote from: MIKE on July 16, 2011, 02:27:00 AM
Wrong George... Go update yourself on the policy on OCP for USAF units in the 'stan.  You could start where the picture comes from.

I stand corrected. As of March, all Airmen deploying to Afghanistan are wearing multi-cam.

Some special operations units in Pararescue and a few others have been wearing multicam for about two years. When I was looking at officer jobs in the Air Force on their webpage last year it had a picture of a Combat Operations Officer wearing multicam in a Pavehawk. Obviously its not practical and waaay to friggin expensive, but CAP=Multicam, I'd be cool with that ;) Haha, if we ever switch to ABU's, it will only be because the Air Force switched to Multicam  ;)

Quote from: Buzz on July 17, 2011, 07:12:08 PMSo, YES, we need an ES patch.  If nothing else, when non-CAP types see the words "Emergency Services" they get an instant impression that maybe we're not Boy Scouts.

Non-CAP people don't need to know what we're doing and certainly won't learn from the patch. 

In most cases, if you're in with the masses, you're wearing a vest over the shirt anyway.

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on July 17, 2011, 11:43:21 PM
Obviously its not practical and waaay to friggin expensive, but CAP=Multicam, I'd be cool with that ;) Haha, if we ever switch to ABU's, it will only be because the Air Force switched to Multicam  ;)

Oh god, not again.

Quote from: Chief2009 on July 18, 2011, 01:37:29 AM

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on July 17, 2011, 11:43:21 PM
Obviously its not practical and waaay to friggin expensive, but CAP=Multicam, I'd be cool with that ;) Haha, if we ever switch to ABU's, it will only be because the Air Force switched to Multicam  ;)

Oh god, not again.

this makes me laugh . . .

Quote from: Buzz on July 17, 2011, 07:12:08 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 13, 2011, 06:29:05 AM
Do we really need an emergency services patch of any kind at all?

We could go all the way, and adopt the PRC People's Liberation Army standard of not having any insignia whatsoever.

The standard didn't work.

So, YES, we need an ES patch.  If nothing else, when non-CAP types see the words "Emergency Services" they get an instant impression that maybe we're not Boy Scouts.

I like Pluto better than the T-34, but either one is good.

Like the BDU's is not a dead give away.

:(

Quote from: lordmonar on July 19, 2011, 02:55:01 AM

Quote from: Buzz on July 17, 2011, 07:12:08 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 13, 2011, 06:29:05 AM
Do we really need an emergency services patch of any kind at all?

We could go all the way, and adopt the PRC People's Liberation Army standard of not having any insignia whatsoever.

The standard didn't work.

So, YES, we need an ES patch.  If nothing else, when non-CAP types see the words "Emergency Services" they get an instant impression that maybe we're not Boy Scouts.

I like Pluto better than the T-34, but either one is good.

Like the BDU's is not a dead give away.

:(

Plus the fact that you shouldn't be acting like the Boy Scouts. Professionalism is combination of appearance, demeanor, and demonstrated competence. It's not what you've got plastered on your uniform. You can look like a recruiting poster with all the doodads sewn on, starched BDUs, and spit shined boots and still prove yourself to be a boob the first time you open your mouth.

Quote from: ol'fido on July 19, 2011, 09:42:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 19, 2011, 02:55:01 AM

Quote from: Buzz on July 17, 2011, 07:12:08 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 13, 2011, 06:29:05 AM
Do we really need an emergency services patch of any kind at all?

We could go all the way, and adopt the PRC People's Liberation Army standard of not having any insignia whatsoever.

The standard didn't work.

So, YES, we need an ES patch.  If nothing else, when non-CAP types see the words "Emergency Services" they get an instant impression that maybe we're not Boy Scouts.

I like Pluto better than the T-34, but either one is good.

Like the BDU's is not a dead give away.

:(

Plus the fact that you shouldn't be acting like the Boy Scouts. Professionalism is combination of appearance, demeanor, and demonstrated competence. It's not what you've got plastered on your uniform. You can look like a recruiting poster with all the doodads sewn on, starched BDUs, and spit shined boots and still prove yourself to be a boob the first time you open your mouth.

And that happens a heck of a lot in CAP. Though, usually, without the starch or spit-shine. The patch is redundant, so why wear it? My ops quals are on the other side of my chest. Just look over there. You don't see anyone in Ma Blue wearing their wings on one side and "AIR FORCE AVIATION" on the other side in a big, red-white-and-blue patch with a T-38 or Donald Duck on it.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 20, 2011, 06:32:21 PM

Quote from: ol'fido on July 19, 2011, 09:42:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 19, 2011, 02:55:01 AM

Quote from: Buzz on July 17, 2011, 07:12:08 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 13, 2011, 06:29:05 AM
Do we really need an emergency services patch of any kind at all?

We could go all the way, and adopt the PRC People's Liberation Army standard of not having any insignia whatsoever.

The standard didn't work.

So, YES, we need an ES patch.  If nothing else, when non-CAP types see the words "Emergency Services" they get an instant impression that maybe we're not Boy Scouts.

I like Pluto better than the T-34, but either one is good.

Like the BDU's is not a dead give away.

:(

Plus the fact that you shouldn't be acting like the Boy Scouts. Professionalism is combination of appearance, demeanor, and demonstrated competence. It's not what you've got plastered on your uniform. You can look like a recruiting poster with all the doodads sewn on, starched BDUs, and spit shined boots and still prove yourself to be a boob the first time you open your mouth.

And that happens a heck of a lot in CAP. Though, usually, without the starch or spit-shine. The patch is redundant, so why wear it? My ops quals are on the other side of my chest. Just look over there. You don't see anyone in Ma Blue wearing their wings on one side and "AIR FORCE AVIATION" on the other side in a big, red-white-and-blue patch with a T-38 or Donald Duck on it.

I'm a fully ES qualified MSA and working on MRO. The patch is the only authorized uniform identification of my qualifications in ES. Going by your logic, we should just eliminate the GT badge and simply authorize ALL ES qualified personnel to wear the patch. No need for redundancy, right?

Quote from: afgeo4 on July 23, 2011, 07:20:38 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 20, 2011, 06:32:21 PM

Quote from: ol'fido on July 19, 2011, 09:42:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 19, 2011, 02:55:01 AM

Quote from: Buzz on July 17, 2011, 07:12:08 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 13, 2011, 06:29:05 AM
Do we really need an emergency services patch of any kind at all?

We could go all the way, and adopt the PRC People's Liberation Army standard of not having any insignia whatsoever.

The standard didn't work.

So, YES, we need an ES patch.  If nothing else, when non-CAP types see the words "Emergency Services" they get an instant impression that maybe we're not Boy Scouts.

I like Pluto better than the T-34, but either one is good.

Like the BDU's is not a dead give away.

:(

Plus the fact that you shouldn't be acting like the Boy Scouts. Professionalism is combination of appearance, demeanor, and demonstrated competence. It's not what you've got plastered on your uniform. You can look like a recruiting poster with all the doodads sewn on, starched BDUs, and spit shined boots and still prove yourself to be a boob the first time you open your mouth.

And that happens a heck of a lot in CAP. Though, usually, without the starch or spit-shine. The patch is redundant, so why wear it? My ops quals are on the other side of my chest. Just look over there. You don't see anyone in Ma Blue wearing their wings on one side and "AIR FORCE AVIATION" on the other side in a big, red-white-and-blue patch with a T-38 or Donald Duck on it.

I'm a fully ES qualified MSA and working on MRO. The patch is the only authorized uniform identification of my qualifications in ES. Going by your logic, we should just eliminate the GT badge and simply authorize ALL ES qualified personnel to wear the patch. No need for redundancy, right?

Nope, not at all. If you're a mission radio operator, do you not have a communications badge? Communications is an operational component of CAP, and even if you're not 101 qualified, chances are, you've supported a mission as a radio op.

And my logic isn't that we should wipe out everything and use the dog or the plane patches. It's that the qualifications we wear elsewhere make that patch redundant, if not useless. Wear your communications insignia or your ground-team badge well. Leave the multicolor, silly patches on the Boy Scout sash.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 24, 2011, 04:10:31 AM
Nope, not at all. If you're a mission radio operator, do you not have a communications badge? Communications is an operational component of CAP, and even if you're not 101 qualified, chances are, you've supported a mission as a radio op.

The Comm Badge is awarded for completing the Technician rating of the Communcations Officer Specialty trach, not for being an MRO. Serving in a communications position as a radio operator is only one part of the specialty track. Cadets can be awarded the badge as they can complete all aspects of the Technician rating.

Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

Quote from: ol'fido on July 24, 2011, 02:56:22 PM
Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

Perhaps something like this?

Quote from: ol'fido on July 24, 2011, 02:56:22 PM
Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

I like It. It's a good start for simplicity and streamlining all the mismatched badges. BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

Quote from: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 04:00:51 PM
BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

I'm not touching that one at this time. That would be a much bigger can of worms.

My ES specialty insignia is a first step in reducing the use of the ES patch. Perhaps you noticed the line "With the adoption of this system, members would be able to wear either the ES patch (either version) or specialty insignia, but not both." IMNSHO, having a nice looking badge will reduce the number of members wearing the ES patch to few enough that discontinuing it's use will become a matter of enshrining common pratice into regulation, rather than a perceived slap in the face to non-aircrew/ground team types.

I have no issue with your matrix, makes sense to me.

But I do have an issue with adding made-up positions which do not exist in CAP regulations such as RUL, SUL, and whatever "NOC Augmentee" is, etc.

Quote from: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 04:00:51 PMBTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

Or just move them "up" over the ribbons for those who don't have an operational qualification.  This would force people to choose
one (that day), and reduce the clutter on our uniforms.

Just chrome the existing molds instead of enameling them.

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 05:10:45 PM

Quote from: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 04:00:51 PM
BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

I'm not touching that one at this time. That would be a much bigger can of worms. .

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant that statement to in general, not specifically to you. It is a big cao-o-worms and I don' know why, is it going to hurt someones feelings if they are updated or brought in line with AF badges. I may be wrong, but didn't all those little shields show up around time the AF created a badge for every AF job so we could be in line with them?

I'm not trying to be difficult but I really don't understand why it's a big can-o-worms, maybe I missed something. I'm not trying to change anything right now or the future. Its been said a couple of times so that's why I'm curious.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 24, 2011, 05:17:35 PM
I have no issue with your matrix, makes sense to me.

But I do have an issue with adding made-up positions which do not exist in CAP regulations such as RUL, SUL, and whatever "NOC Augmentee" is, etc.

I pulled the list out of CAPR 60-3, so all but 2 of the positions do exist in the regs. Whether they're defined or not, is another story. The only ones I added were CERT Team Leader and CISM Team Leader. If CAP moves into these is a significant way, I can easily see those positions/titles being created. Yes, I'm aware that CERT does not have team leaders as a separate skill set.

The ones I know of that need definition (besides mine) include:
Highbird Radio Operator
Cost Unit Leader
Resource Unit Leader
Situation Unit Leader
NOC Augmentee
Aerial Digital Imaging System Operator
Airborne Photographer
All the ARCHER ones

Quote from: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 05:30:49 PM

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 05:10:45 PM

Quote from: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 04:00:51 PM
BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

I'm not touching that one at this time. That would be a much bigger can of worms. .

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant that statement to in general, not specifically to you. It is a big cao-o-worms and I don' know why, is it going to hurt someones feelings if they are updated or brought in line with AF badges. I may be wrong, but didn't all those little shields show up around time the AF created a badge for every AF job so we could be in line with them?

I'm not trying to be difficult but I really don't understand why it's a big can-o-worms, maybe I missed something. I'm not trying to change anything right now or the future. Its been said a couple of times so that's why I'm curious.

Given the significant expenditure folks made on the CSU and the resultant outcry over its elimination, many more folks have invested in the current specialty badges. This includes the folks who wear the AF style uniforms. Changing the specialty badges for no apparent reason would really upset almost all the senior members in CAP, since almost all have invested in them. Additionally, the badges really don't wear out, so saying once they're worn out, replace with new, isn't a realistic option. Not to mention the cost of CAP buying out the obsolete badges from Vanguard since they could not be used by any other organization. The badges currently run $6.60 - $7.15. Many seniors have multiple badges (I have 7) so they can wear the appriopriate one for the activity they're dealing with.

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 05:59:22 PM

Quote from: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 05:30:49 PM

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 05:10:45 PM

Quote from: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 04:00:51 PM
BTW Get rid of the specialty track shields and actually follow the AF.

I'm not touching that one at this time. That would be a much bigger can of worms. .

Given the significant expenditure folks made on the CSU and the resultant outcry over its elimination, many more folks have invested in the current specialty badges. This includes the folks who wear the AF style uniforms. Changing the specialty badges for no apparent reason would really upset almost all the senior members in CAP, since almost all have invested in them. Additionally, the badges really don't wear out, so saying once they're worn out, replace with new, isn't a realistic option. Not to mention the cost of CAP buying out the obsolete badges from Vanguard since they could not be used by any other organization. The badges currently run $6.60 - $7.15. Many seniors have multiple badges (I have 7) so they can wear the appriopriate one for the activity they're dealing with.

That cleans up some of my curiosity.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 24, 2011, 05:19:59 PM

Quote from: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 04:00:51 PM

Or just move them "up" over the ribbons for those who don't have an operational qualification.  This would force people to choose
one (that day), and reduce the clutter on our uniforms.

Just chrome the existing molds instead of enameling them.

I like it.

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 05:59:22 PMAdditionally, the badges really don't wear out, so saying once they're worn out, replace with new, isn't a realistic option.

A point I hadn't considered. Certainly valid. Are some so desperate to change that they're willing to throw away someone else's money? I think most reasonable people could say that's exaclty what is happening.

In a related concept, I think some changes for the Commander's Badge should be considered. Right now, a CO moving out of the position goes from a 6 plus dollar badge to an 85 cent ribbon. Mirror the Air Force, move the badge down upon "graduation."  It's just like the specialty badges, it doesn't wear out, so replacing it just to replace it is a waste. There's a few criteria that could be adjusted for it as well.

Of course, something else just occurred to me: Anyone notice how the Command Service Ribbon uses the exact same colors as the Community Service ribbon? I know two people that thought the Community Service ribbon was Command Service, and were wearing the wrong ribbon. Easy to get confused, they use the same colors.

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 03:24:11 PM

Quote from: ol'fido on July 24, 2011, 02:56:22 PM
Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

Perhaps something like this?

YONK.  I'm stealing this and uploading it to Col Weiss's collection of documents for him to consider after the election.

That's fine. It's already been submitted through normal channels as well.

Those channels will be all out of sorts in less than a month

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 24, 2011, 06:46:06 PM
Of course, something else just occurred to me: Anyone notice how the Command Service Ribbon uses the exact same colors as the Community Service ribbon? I know two people that thought the Community Service ribbon was Command Service, and were wearing the wrong ribbon. Easy to get confused, they use the same colors.

Yep. Identical design except for the placement of the outer red-white blue stripes.

Personally, I would ditch the ribbon and add a star and 'toilet seat' to the command badge to denote current service as a wing, region or national commander. And the placement to determine active and graduated commanders works fine for me.

In the RealAirForce®, the commander's badge is awarded to colonels and below. General officers don't wear a current or graduated command pin. Here's the qualifications for the command badge, from AFI 36-2903, chapter 10:

Quote
10.3.24. Commanders' Insignia. The Command Insignia pin is mandatory on all blue service uniforms and is worn by all eligible commissioned officers in the rank of Colonel (O-6) and below. Commanders of a squadron, group, wing, or other organizations identified at: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/dress/faq.asp (http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/dress/faq.asp)  wear the commanders' insignia pin on the right side of the uniform jacket in the same relative position as the badges worn on the left on the formal dress and mess dress uniform. When currently in command, wear the pin above the name tag on the service dress uniform. The pin is worn below the nametag upon completion of command duties. Wear of the pin on the light blue uniform shirt is the same, above the name tag when in command and below the name tag upon completion of command.

10.3.24.1. No longer associated with commander's pay.

10.3.24.2. Additional approvals for wear made by CSAF.

10.3.24.3. Member must be a Colonel (O-6) and below to wear commander's insignia.

10.3.24.4. Must posses and exercise UCMJ authority (appointed on G-Series orders).

10.3.24.5. Must be competitively selected by a board (AFPC/MAJCOM/FOA, etc.
10.3.24.6. Commanders must be filling: Squadron, Group, Wing, or other position identified at: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/dress/faq.asp (http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/dress/faq.asp) .

10.3.24.7. Commander's insignia will not be worn by "temporary" or "acting" commanders.

10.3.24.8. Commanders must serve entire tenure for permanent wear.

10.3.24.9. Vice and Deputy Commanders are not authorized wear of the insignia. However, they may wear the insignia as a graduated commander from previously held command positions.

10.3.24.10. Flag Officers are not authorized wear of the insignia.

10.3.24.11. Detachment Commanders are not authorized wear of the commander's insignia.

We could even ditch the group commander's badge and keep just the basic badge - the RealAirForce® does not distinguish between command levels.

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 03:24:11 PM

Quote from: ol'fido on July 24, 2011, 02:56:22 PM
Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

Perhaps something like this?

Fantastic!  Send it to BOG immediately!

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 24, 2011, 06:46:06 PM

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 05:59:22 PMAdditionally, the badges really don't wear out, so saying once they're worn out, replace with new, isn't a realistic option.

A point I hadn't considered. Certainly valid. Are some so desperate to change that they're willing to throw away someone else's money? I think most reasonable people could say that's exaclty what is happening.

In a related concept, I think some changes for the Commander's Badge should be considered. Right now, a CO moving out of the position goes from a 6 plus dollar badge to an 85 cent ribbon. Mirror the Air Force, move the badge down upon "graduation."  It's just like the specialty badges, it doesn't wear out, so replacing it just to replace it is a waste. There's a few criteria that could be adjusted for it as well.

The Commander's badge is more likely to be passed on from one commander to the next, based on my experience.

Quote from: arajca on July 25, 2011, 04:17:04 AM
The Commander's badge is more likely to be passed on from one commander to the next, based on my experience.

^This.

I'm the fourth commander in my squadron to wear the badge.  When I step down, it will go to my successor.

Quote from: Slim on July 25, 2011, 05:13:30 AM

Quote from: arajca on July 25, 2011, 04:17:04 AM
The Commander's badge is more likely to be passed on from one commander to the next, based on my experience.

^This.

I'm the fourth commander in my squadron to wear the badge.  When I step down, it will go to my successor.

Do you give all the Commander's Badges to your successors? Because having only one is a bit hard to believe. Personally, I have at least two of any badge I'm authorized. Having a single one left to wear as a graduated commander isn't unreasonable, people wouldn't be as picky about a graduated commander only wearing one on shirt/blouse or on their coat. But I don't have any problem passing one in tradition, it's fitting.

I had several as well - for starters you need one on your shirt when you're wearing a jacket.

When I was run over by the truck of terms limits, was voted off the island, was relieved, relinquished command in April I gave one to my successor as part of the change-of-command and kept one for my ultimate and glorious return to power shadowbox.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 25, 2011, 03:14:30 PM
... for starters you need one on your shirt when you're wearing a jacket.

You don't actually need one on the shirt as well, but it tends to be common practice.

I've worn service coat with all the bling, but only nametag/rank on the shirt underneath (as well as a wing patch, but it was mandatory at the time) a number of times before. I can also think of a few times I had people tell me that I was supposed to be wearing everything on the shirt that I had on the service coat. Funny thing is when I handed them the uniform manual and told them to show me, they couldn't.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 25, 2011, 02:32:03 PM

Quote from: Slim on July 25, 2011, 05:13:30 AM

Quote from: arajca on July 25, 2011, 04:17:04 AM
The Commander's badge is more likely to be passed on from one commander to the next, based on my experience.

^This.

I'm the fourth commander in my squadron to wear the badge.  When I step down, it will go to my successor.

Do you give all the Commander's Badges to your successors? Because having only one is a bit hard to believe. Personally, I have at least two of any badge I'm authorized. Having a single one left to wear as a graduated commander isn't unreasonable, people wouldn't be as picky about a graduated commander only wearing one on shirt/blouse or on their coat. But I don't have any problem passing one in tradition, it's fitting.

We only have the one badge.  When it was authorized, the sitting commander (at the time) bought it.  At the end of her term, she passed the badge to her replacement, who passed it along to his, then to me.  Just throws a little bit of tradition and meaning behind the badge, the outgoing commander passes along the unit flag, and then the badge is passed along in a handshake after the formalities.

We don't wear service dress all that often, and three of the four wearers have been CSU or white/grey wearers.  None of us popped for the jacket, and there aren't provisions to wear it on the blazer, so we only ever needed the one.

That's the only badge I wear that I have just one.  I've doubled or tripled up on pretty much everything else.

We also have a tradition of passing down our grade insignia when we get promoted.  When I made major, all of my captain stuff went to a 1st Lt in the squadron who was due for promotion.  I have a pair of Lt Col epaulets once worn by Col Ed Phelka (former COWG/CC and a very good friend of mine) waiting for the day I get level IV out of the way. 

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 03:24:11 PM

Quote from: ol'fido on July 24, 2011, 02:56:22 PM
Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

Perhaps something like this?

Intriguing idea. I like the idea of consolidating badges.

But what I don't get is how mission base staff and groundpounders would get a badge with wings on it. Especially since they're stolen jump wings. :)

I think a bigger issue where badges are concerned is that there's little correlation between the specialty track badges and the emergency services specialties -- which is something I know the public affairs folks are studying right now, but I don't know that the safety folks or anyone else are looking at.

We probably only need no more than eight badges. A communications badge could easily incorporate public affairs and information technology, for instance. A manpower badge could include admin and personnel, and possibly even safety, professional development and cadet program. A support badge would work for logistics (supply, transportation, et al). An operations badge would cover operations (ground and air), emergency services and other related fields. And on, and on....

... but the badges, as an extension of the specialty tracks, would incorporate ops quals, since ops quals should necessarily be part of the specialty tracks. No one should train in public affairs and get a senior rating without being a qualified PIO. No safety officer should be allowed to be one without having the ops qual. And so on, and so on. In other words: If you're going to be in CAP, support the reasons we're here -- emergency services, not just the cadet program and weekly meetings. Go big or go home.

We don't need a different badge for every ops qual. We sure as heck don't need them for every specialty track. After the first couple of them, they all look the same, and they all look like cartoons. It's obvious from the badges' art direction and execution that they're unnecessary.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 26, 2011, 05:18:53 AM

Quote from: arajca on July 24, 2011, 03:24:11 PM

Quote from: ol'fido on July 24, 2011, 02:56:22 PM
Like I said earlier, we need to eliminate the Comm patch and the ES patch and replace them with ES qual badges. So we would have aeronautical badges, ES badges, and specialty track badges. GES would not have a badge but as soon as you get any ES qual you could qualify for a badge in MBS, GT/GBD, Comm, Aircrew(gives us MS something to wear or maybe a set of wings with a "C" instead of the "O"), IC, UDF, and FL. May need to add a few more "degrees" to some of these to come up with a basic, senior, master/command format i.e. Mission Radio Operator(BCUT), Senior RO(ACUT), Master RO(CUL).  I haven't got a whole system worked out but you get the drift?

Perhaps something like this?

Intriguing idea. I like the idea of consolidating badges.

But what I don't get is how mission base staff and groundpounders would get a badge with wings on it. Especially since they're stolen jump wings. :)

I think a bigger issue where badges are concerned is that there's little correlation between the specialty track badges and the emergency services specialties -- which is something I know the public affairs folks are studying right now, but I don't know that the safety folks or anyone else are looking at.

We probably only need no more than eight badges. A communications badge could easily incorporate public affairs and information technology, for instance. A manpower badge could include admin and personnel, and possibly even safety, professional development and cadet program. A support badge would work for logistics (supply, transportation, et al). An operations badge would cover operations (ground and air), emergency services and other related fields. And on, and on....

... but the badges, as an extension of the specialty tracks, would incorporate ops quals, since ops quals should necessarily be part of the specialty tracks. No one should train in public affairs and get a senior rating without being a qualified PIO. No safety officer should be allowed to be one without having the ops qual. And so on, and so on. In other words: If you're going to be in CAP, support the reasons we're here -- emergency services, not just the cadet program and weekly meetings. Go big or go home.

We don't need a different badge for every ops qual. We sure as heck don't need them for every specialty track. After the first couple of them, they all look the same, and they all look like cartoons. It's obvious from the badges' art direction and execution that they're unnecessary.

Why not just do away with the enamelled speciality badges and go to one, two or three better designed chromed ones. broken into functional areas. Why not also eliminate the ES and Comm badges and create a General ES badge -- separate of GT or IC and award it for all the other ES specialities.

The problem is this. There are so many enamelled speciality badges and they can be worn virtually every where on either side of a a dress uniform, but nowhere on a utility or BDU uniform. Talk about uniform diarrhea. Even the Air Force started consolidating a lot of specalities under different but correlating badges. The Air Force also only allows two occupational badges above the ribbons on the left side of a uniform.

This whole discussion started because the ES patch is about the only way to recognize a lot of ES ratings without badges and an ES patch is not an ES badge. I always thought it a little odd that there was a GT badge but nothing to recognize things like flightline marshallers. Of course, if the CAP ever formally adopts the MEMS Program, that one badge does that.

One other thing...give the ES patch greater status. Put it on the right shoulder where all the other special activity or aircrew-related patches are worn.

I think everyone should just be like me and wear only a flag, nametape, branch tape, and badge (in my case a GTL badge, YMMV) 8) >:D.

On your dress uniform, only a nameplate and badge. One row of ribbons if you really want to show off :P.

I'm joking, of course

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 26, 2011, 11:45:21 AMOne other thing...give the ES patch greater status. Put it on the right shoulder where all the other special activity or aircrew-related patches are worn.

That spot is already used. All those patches are now worn on the left pocket.

The ES patch location is already pretty distinctive, it's the only patch that goes in that location on the uniforms it is worn on. (BDUs: above nametag, flightsuit/jumpsuit: right breast pocket or corresponding position.) Right now, there is no way to confuse it for anything else. Moving it someplace else means it actually loses it "greater status", as it then gets lost among all the others that can be worn in that location.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 26, 2011, 05:06:45 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 26, 2011, 11:45:21 AMOne other thing...give the ES patch greater status. Put it on the right shoulder where all the other special activity or aircrew-related patches are worn.

That spot is already used. All those patches are now worn on the left pocket.

The ES patch location is already pretty distinctive, it's the only patch that goes in that location on the uniforms it is worn on. (BDUs: above nametag, flightsuit/jumpsuit: right breast pocket or corresponding position.) Right now, there is no way to confuse it for anything else. Moving it someplace else means it actually loses it "greater status", as it then gets lost among all the others that can be worn in that location.

Its BEST status is lost...

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 26, 2011, 11:45:21 AM
This whole discussion started because the ES patch is about the only way to recognize a lot of ES ratings without badges and an ES patch is not an ES badge. I always thought it a little odd that there was a GT badge but nothing to recognize things like flightline marshallers. Of course, if the CAP ever formally adopts the MEMS Program, that one badge does that.

Um, no. The MEMS badge has a whole lot more requirements than serve as a flight line marshaller or radio operator for two days.

Quote from: JC004 on July 26, 2011, 05:48:51 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 26, 2011, 05:06:45 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 26, 2011, 11:45:21 AMOne other thing...give the ES patch greater status. Put it on the right shoulder where all the other special activity or aircrew-related patches are worn.

That spot is already used. All those patches are now worn on the left pocket.

The ES patch location is already pretty distinctive, it's the only patch that goes in that location on the uniforms it is worn on. (BDUs: above nametag, flightsuit/jumpsuit: right breast pocket or corresponding position.) Right now, there is no way to confuse it for anything else. Moving it someplace else means it actually loses it "greater status", as it then gets lost among all the others that can be worn in that location.

Its BEST status is lost...

I'll agree with that.

Quote from: arajca on July 26, 2011, 06:15:34 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 26, 2011, 11:45:21 AM
This whole discussion started because the ES patch is about the only way to recognize a lot of ES ratings without badges and an ES patch is not an ES badge. I always thought it a little odd that there was a GT badge but nothing to recognize things like flightline marshallers. Of course, if the CAP ever formally adopts the MEMS Program, that one badge does that.

Um, no. The MEMS badge has a whole lot more requirements than serve as a flight line marshaller or radio operator for two days.

True. From what I've read about the MEMS badge is that it's heard to even be awarded it nowadays, something about the SGAUS being practically non-functional in the last couple years.

I've read the program itself, it seems to be a good one, and the badge is decent looking. But from the looks of it, it's not really awarded anymore.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 26, 2011, 07:32:50 PM

Quote from: JC004 on July 26, 2011, 05:48:51 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 26, 2011, 05:06:45 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 26, 2011, 11:45:21 AMOne other thing...give the ES patch greater status. Put it on the right shoulder where all the other special activity or aircrew-related patches are worn.

That spot is already used. All those patches are now worn on the left pocket.

The ES patch location is already pretty distinctive, it's the only patch that goes in that location on the uniforms it is worn on. (BDUs: above nametag, flightsuit/jumpsuit: right breast pocket or corresponding position.) Right now, there is no way to confuse it for anything else. Moving it someplace else means it actually loses it "greater status", as it then gets lost among all the others that can be worn in that location.

Its BEST status is lost...

I'll agree with that.

I third....

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Seam_ripper.jpg/220px-Seam_ripper.jpg)

 simple method is if you earned it and want to wear it you wear it, if you earned it and you don't want to wear it don't! How difficult is that honestly?

Quote from: arajca on July 26, 2011, 06:15:34 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 26, 2011, 11:45:21 AM
This whole discussion started because the ES patch is about the only way to recognize a lot of ES ratings without badges and an ES patch is not an ES badge. I always thought it a little odd that there was a GT badge but nothing to recognize things like flightline marshallers. Of course, if the CAP ever formally adopts the MEMS Program, that one badge does that.

Um, no. The MEMS badge has a whole lot more requirements than serve as a flight line marshaller or radio operator for two days.

Actually, yes....and I know because I'm rated at the basic level. Completing the MEMS requirements actually spurred me to complete those courses necessary for a dormant ES rating that I wasn't interested in completing, and it certainly opened my eyes about the CAP's response in emergencies or disasters.

I'm now working on the senior MEMS badge and those courses fulfill some of the NIMS requirements for other CAP ES ratings and what was already done actually opened a door for me to assist a county Emergeny Services Agency.

Certainly flight line marshaller or radio operator have their own requirements. However, the idea of one badge to serve as a general badge that all ES ratings would solve a lot of problems.

Quote from: sab163 on July 26, 2011, 09:13:31 PM
simple method is if you earned it and want to wear it you wear it, if you earned it and you don't want to wear it don't! How difficult is that honestly?

We're talking about establishing standards going forward.

I would hazard that it is much more popular with newer, less experienced members and cadets.  My experience has been that the more you do, the
less excited you are about showing it off, especially on working uniforms.

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 26, 2011, 10:45:32 PM

Quote from: arajca on July 26, 2011, 06:15:34 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 26, 2011, 11:45:21 AM
This whole discussion started because the ES patch is about the only way to recognize a lot of ES ratings without badges and an ES patch is not an ES badge. I always thought it a little odd that there was a GT badge but nothing to recognize things like flightline marshallers. Of course, if the CAP ever formally adopts the MEMS Program, that one badge does that.

Um, no. The MEMS badge has a whole lot more requirements than serve as a flight line marshaller or radio operator for two days.

Actually, yes....and I know because I'm rated at the basic level. Completing the MEMS requirements actually spurred me to complete those courses necessary for a dormant ES rating that I wasn't interested in completing, and it certainly opened my eyes about the CAP's response in emergencies or disasters.

I'm now working on the senior MEMS badge and those courses fulfill some of the NIMS requirements for other CAP ES ratings and what was already done actually opened a door for me to assist a county Emergeny Services Agency.

Certainly flight line marshaller or radio operator have their own requirements. However, the idea of one badge to serve as a general badge that all ES ratings would solve a lot of problems.

I have also completed the MEMS Basic qualification. Here is ONE item from the Basic level requirements:

Quote from: MEMS HandbookAt a minimum, complete the following online (classroom preferred) EMI ISP courses (Basic MEMS Course Curriculum):
a. IS100 Introduction to Incident Command System
b. IS200 Basic Incident Command System
c. IS275 Emergency Operations Center
d. IS292 Disaster Basics
e. IS700 National Incident Management System (NIMS)
f. IS800 National Response Plan* (NRP)

Unfortunately, the handbook does not support copy/paste very well, so I can't put the entire basic level up. Suffice to say, there are 11 more requirements, including a written narrative with specific information required. Check it out here.

Is it a good program? From what I've read in it, yes. Would it serve as a ES Qualification Badge? No.

A lot of people tend to get the whole badge thing backwards. In the Boy Scouts, you do something to earn the badge. In CAP, you train in something to fill the role, the badge is an indicator that you have completed that training. Some folks have the BSA mentality in a CAP world.