CAP Talk

Good day all,

I hoping some of you can provide me with a written job description for the DCS position.

Thank You!

See CAPR 201-

Deputy Commander mirrors the duties of Squadron Commander. According to the manning chart shown he is esponsible for oversight of all positions not tied into Cadet Programs. 

I know that.  I'm trying to not have to reinvent the wheel by asking for an already written job description
for The Deputy Commander for Seniors.

Thank you.

The position description for listed for Squadron Commander in 20-1 would be a good start.

Select the items to be delegated to the deputy.

Like the Vice President of the United States: to inquire discretely each morning as to the state of the President's health(just substitute Sq CC).  Other than that, you do what the CC assigns to you.

Quote from: bosshawk on March 25, 2011, 03:01:38 PM
Like the Vice President of the United States: to inquire discretely each morning as to the state of the President's health(just substitute Sq CC).  Other than that, you do what the CC assigns to you.

Um....no.

Unlike the Vice-President, in properly run squadron the CC should be involved only in oversight, scope, and whole-unit tasks, whereas the CD's are
charged with wrench-tuning for their respective programs.

Paul,

IMHO the DCS should probably be about the same thing as a Chief of Staff in function. Is there a job description for that?

There should be a job description for a Chief of Staff somewhere in the malestrom of regs in CAP.  If I remember correctly, the CoS only exists at Wing or Region level.

I was a DCS two or three times and what I did was usually to mirror what the CC did or wanted me to do.

My remark about the position being similar to the VPUSA was intended to be humorous: some of the CT folks missed the humor.

Squadron Commander
Squadron commanders are responsible to the corporation and to the wing commander (or group commander if applicable) for ensuring that the corporation objectives, policies, and operational directives are effectively executed within their squadron. They shall:
Establish plans, policies, and procedures necessary to the fulfillment of the CAP mission, which are not in conflict with the directives of higher headquarters.
Keep informed of the accomplishments, problems, and degree of compliance with regulations and other directives through personal observations, inspections, reports, and staff meetings.
Comply with all policies, regulations, and directives of higher headquarters and require the same compliance by all members of the squadron.
Ensure safety of personnel and equipment through compliance with directives and policy guidance; ensure an effective safety awareness, education, and inspection program within the unit.
CAPR 20-1 (E) 27
Select personnel to fill authorized staff positions and remove from staff position those members deemed unqualified or otherwise unsuitable to continue in their positions.
Establish policies and procedures to ensure an effective squadron recruiting and retention program.
Coordinate the activities of staff officers to prevent overlapping of functions and to resolve conflicts.
Eliminate members whose continued membership is determined undesirable in accordance with the provisions of CAPR 35-3.
Identify members for nonrenewal where continued membership is adverse to the best interests of CAP in accordance with provisions of CAPM 39-2.
Determine meeting dates and attendance requirements for squadron meetings in accordance with policies established by higher headquarters.
Ensure that new personnel are properly introduced to CAP and make frequent checks on their progress.
Ensure that squadron property and funds are properly safeguarded and accounted for.
Initiate requests for promotion of squadron members.
Ensure proper wear of the uniform and that violations are promptly corrected.
Ensure that complaints and grievances are resolved fairly, impartially, and promptly.
Initiate recommendations for awards and decorations for squadron members.
Initiate organization actions affecting their squadron (charter redesignations, address changes, etc.).
Refer to the next higher headquarters problems that cannot be resolved at squadron level.
Promote an understanding and appreciation of CAP in the local community.
Promote aerospace education.
Squadron commanders should be familiar with the Civil Air Patrol Constitution and Bylaws, CAP governing directives, and all policy matters affecting their command.
NOTE: The duties above also apply to the deputy squadron commander. Squadron commanders should develop a detailed position description for their deputy, outlining his/her specific duties and responsibilities in support of the overall squadron mission.

Sort of like the Rules of Rogers Rangers in the Revolutionary War: don't forget nothing.

I seem to recall that, when processing into Viet Nam, we were handed a card holding Rogers Rules and told to carry it at all times.

I figure I don't want to start a new thread cause I can piggy back on this and keep all the DCS stuff together.  And this question also encompasses DCC's as well.

Are the Deputy Commanders also authorized to wear the Commanders' Badge?  The way I read the regs I would say that they're not.  However I have seen a few Deputies who are wearing the Commanders' Badge.  I just want to double check myself and see if I'm reading the regs right on this one. 

Quote from: Flint on November 21, 2011, 02:59:37 PM
I figure I don't want to start a new thread cause I can piggy back on this and keep all the DCS stuff together.  And this question also encompasses DCC's as well.

Are the Deputy Commanders also authorized to wear the Commanders' Badge?  The way I read the regs I would say that they're not.  However I have seen a few Deputies who are wearing the Commanders' Badge.  I just want to double check myself and see if I'm reading the regs right on this one.

No.

Ok so I was right.  Good to know thanks. 

From the Knowledge base.

The CAP Command Badge was developed to recognize currently serving squadron and group commanders and is worn above the nameplate, as the Air Force does now. The badge is removed when the member is no longer serving in that position. ( APPROVED by Summer National Board, Aug 2003.)

There is no nomination process for the command badge. The command badges may be worn by current squadron and group commanders. Badges may be ordered from Vanguard. See below for details on wear.

Item 8446 BADGE, SQUADRON COMMANDERS
Command Badge for sitting Squadron Commanders only. Worn on the Service coat centered on the right breast parallel to bottom row of ribbons. On the shirts/blouses it is worn 1/2 inch above the nameplate on the right breast. Can also be worn on the Aviator shirt as the one additional CAP badge of choice. Cannot be worn on the CAP blazer.

Again that's how I read it.  I just wanted to double check that I read it correctly.  I think the individuals who were doing it thought that since "commander" was part of their title it meant them too.  Wouldn't be the first or last time in this organization some one read the regs wrong or made up their own thing. 

Deputy Commander for Cadets = CDC
Deputy Commander for Seniors = CDS

Major Lord
Dircetor rof PAC dyslexia

I wouldn't quote Vanguard as being an authority on CAP regulations.

The intent of the badge is to identify those who are in positions where the buck stops.  As much as deputies would like to be commanders, they still don't have command authority - which is what the badge represents.

Although, I don't agree with the knowledgebase placement guidelines, because we wear a nametag on the service coat, so really it should just be placed 1/2" above the nameplate/tag centered.

Simply because the title includes the word commander, doesn't make them a commander.  The "deputy" preceding it tells us that they are in command when the commander is absent - a placeholder. 

Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 21, 2011, 05:05:12 PMAlthough, I don't agree with the knowledgebase placement guidelines, because we wear a nametag on the service coat, so really it should just be placed 1/2" above the nameplate/tag centered.

Isn't that where it is worn?

Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2011, 05:09:53 PM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 21, 2011, 05:05:12 PMAlthough, I don't agree with the knowledgebase placement guidelines, because we wear a nametag on the service coat, so really it should just be placed 1/2" above the nameplate/tag centered.

Isn't that where it is worn?

Yes.  But the knowledge base answer above starts talking about making it parallel with the bottom row of ribbons.  "Worn on the Service coat centered on the right breast parallel to bottom row of ribbons." and then goes on to say that on the shirt it should be 1/2" above the nameplate.

^ Weird, and didn't the return of the nameplate pre-date the implementation of the CC badge?

QuoteDeputy Commander for Cadets = CDC
Deputy Commander for Seniors = CDS

Those are certainly the office symbols for those Offices according to CAPR 10-1.

The old CAPR10-1 before the revision had this note:
"These address symbols are shown by functional areas and should not be construed as duty titles."

Note that AEO or even Aerospace Education Officer does not show up on CAPR10-1 either, the office symbol of AE is used for Aerospace Education.  Though we often use AEO as the abbreviation for the duty title Aerospace Education Officer.

I hate to barge in like this and ask what may be an obvious question... but oh well. I know the regs, and I know the chain of command. I'm looking for a general opinion: in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvemet of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

Like the CDS at your squadron much? ::)

The cadets do not fall under the CDS in the chain of command. As a CDS, I always try to respect that chain and go through the CDC and C/CC when I need a cadet to do something, though sometimes I will address the cadet directly for the sake of expediency and occasional unreliability with the cadet chain. They do not have any demotion or promotion authority and don't have any direct influence over cadet staff selection. They are the Deputy Commander for Seniors.

Keep in mind that many seniors are multi-billited and therefore your CDS might also be the Asst. CDC or the like.

On its face, this is a good example of the random senior interloping that I discussed in another thread. However, I can't honestly see a commander letting his CDS do this in practice.

How can you tell?

Our unit is mildly sized in terms of membership, but we have a full chain of command and I would like to see it more strongly enforced from the senior side. All these things have caused a significant amount of conflict over recent months. The CC isn't actively supporting his CDS' actions, but he's not doing much about them either.

Thanks for your reply, I'd like to read this thread.  ;)

Now, just because a senior isn't in your chain of command, that doesn't mean you get to blow them off. If they ask you to do something, do it or say "Sir, my superior has already tasked me to do X, but I will find someone who can do that for you." - just because they can't promote you doesn't mean they don't outrank you.

Of course, and we do. Just looking for answers.

Quote from: Worldviewer on December 01, 2011, 06:57:59 PM
in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvemet of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

If the CDS can demote cadets, withhold promotions, and direct cadet staff assignments, then the CDS does have the authority to it.  Sorry, but if the CC has not corrected this, then it is with the CC's permission by default.   If the CDC is allowing it to happen, then it is with the CDC's permission by default.

Not all lines of authority are as clear as a line connecting two blocks on a piece of paper.  None of my organizational charts show the Cadet Commander as falling under the Cadet Leadership Officer - but it is very unwise for a cadet to ignore him.

Quote from: Worldviewer on December 01, 2011, 06:57:59 PM
I hate to barge in like this and ask what may be an obvious question... but oh well. I know the regs, and I know the chain of command. I'm looking for a general opinion: in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvemet of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

Not if the organisation is following the concepts of chain of command, span of control and unity of command.

The cadet operations fall under the CDC and he/she falls under the commander.

The CDS should not have any direct say into any of these matters.

Please notice the "should" in that sentance.  The chain of command in any organisation will have some overlap, dotted line relationships, and other "I got two bosses" situations.

For example the:

AE in a composite squadron he has an internal senior duty and and external duty that falls under the CDS.....but his internal cadet AE duties falls under the CDC.
Leadership Officers....ina composite squadron the have a senior duty where they fall under the PDO......and a cadet duty where they fall under the CDC.
When cadets partipate in ES operations they fall under the ES officer and the CDS.
Adminstration and personel officers have to deal with both CDC and CDS.

So....the chain of command can be blury at times....but.....in the situations you are asking about.....there SHOULD NOT be any reason for the CDS to get involved and the CDC should be protecting his turf from such intrustions and the CC should be makeing sure all the players are staying in their own lanes.

Actually, when cadets participate in ES operations they fall under their immediate supervisor (GTL, unit leader, whatever). Your ES officer can be an MSA and have no authority at all on an actual mission.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on December 02, 2011, 07:22:23 PM
Actually, when cadets participate in ES operations they fall under their immediate supervisor (GTL, unit leader, whatever). Your ES officer can be an MSA and have no authority at all on an actual mission.

I was thinking more on the operational training side as opposed to actual SAREX or SAR operations.

The ES officer is in charge of planning, training and executing all ES actiivties.....hence the gray line of authority.

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 08:00:49 PMThe ES officer is in charge of planning, training and executing all ES actiivties.....hence the gray line of authority.

Fixed that for you.  I have a philosophical issue with that - the ESO is not a wrench turner, he's a planner and administrator for others.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 02, 2011, 08:42:13 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 08:00:49 PMThe ES officer is in charge of planning, training and executing all ES actiivties.....hence the gray line of authority.

Fixed that for you.  I have a philosophical issue with that - the ESO is not a wrench turner, he's a planner and administrator for others.

Then who is in CHARGE of executing the plan?

QuoteI'm looking for a general opinion: in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvement of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

As the Deputy Commander for Cadets in my squadron, I have permissions to access to the cadet promotions/cadet testing etc panel in e-services.  I can see cadet test results, if they are promoting or not etc etc.

Likewise, because I'm not the Squadron Commander, I do not have access to Senior Member promotions panel etc, nor do I have access to the Safety Officer's items or Operations Officer's items.  I can have access if granted the proper permissions.

Does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have access permissions to cadet promotions via e-services?  I'm not sure, I would venture to say under normal circumstances they would not have those permissions, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, if the Deputy Commander for Seniors is doing all of that as you indicated without the involvement of the Deputy Commander for Cadets or the Squadron Commander, then something seems fishy about whats going on at that squadron. It might not be entirely the Deputy Commander for Seniors fault, it might be because of poor command structure, from a Squadron Commander who never shows up or a Deputy Commander for Cadets who never shows up.  However, generally speaking, the Squadron Commander and the Deputy Commander for Cadets should be involved in the daily activities of the cadets not the Deputy Commander for Seniors.

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 08:48:17 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on December 02, 2011, 08:42:13 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 08:00:49 PMThe ES officer is in charge of planning, training and executing all ES actiivties.....hence the gray line of authority.

Fixed that for you.  I have a philosophical issue with that - the ESO is not a wrench turner, he's a planner and administrator for others.

Then who is in CHARGE of executing the plan?

The operators - aircrew, approved trainers, ground team people, SET's, etc.  The ESO might be one of those people, mostly because we're short handed or he likes doing that, but by design he's not executing the plans.  The ESO is supposed to make sure the resources are available, and the people doing the work are properly vetted, etc.

Nope....they are in charge of carrying out the TASK.....not the plan.

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 08:53:19 PM
Nope....they are in charge of carrying out the TASK.....not the plan.

I see your "nope" and raise you a "I don't even think so".  The duties are about creating and administering the plans and programs around ES, not running activities.  There isn't even a requirement that an ESO be a qualified operator, and certainly most are not dual-tracked enough to do both air and ground taskings, etc. 

Quoth 20-1
Emergency Services (ES) Officer

Manages and directs emergency services activities.  They shall:
Develop agreements with agencies responsible for search, domestic emergencies, and civil defense.
Develop and maintain an adequate emergency service force.
Develop training programs to ensure that highly qualified ES personnel are available for search and rescue, and disaster
relief missions.
Develop plans and standard operating procedures to support the wing's emergency services program.
Maintain records to determine the status of resources (personnel, vehicles aircraft, radios and other emergency
equipment) available for ES missions.

Quote from: spacecommand on December 02, 2011, 08:49:09 PM

QuoteI'm looking for a general opinion: in a composite squadron that has a CDC, does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have any authority to demote cadets, withhold promotion, or interfere in cadet staff assignment issues? May the CDS order cadet executive staff or flight staff to report directly to his or her position without the involvement of the CDC or CC, or at any time?

As the Deputy Commander for Cadets in my squadron, I have permissions to access to the cadet promotions/cadet testing etc panel in e-services.  I can see cadet test results, if they are promoting or not etc etc.

Likewise, because I'm not the Squadron Commander, I do not have access to Senior Member promotions panel etc, nor do I have access to the Safety Officer's items or Operations Officer's items.  I can have access if granted the proper permissions.

Does the Deputy Commander for Seniors have access permissions to cadet promotions via e-services?  I'm not sure, I would venture to say under normal circumstances they would not have those permissions, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, if the Deputy Commander for Seniors is doing all of that as you indicated without the involvement of the Deputy Commander for Cadets or the Squadron Commander, then something seems fishy about whats going on at that squadron. It might not be entirely the Deputy Commander for Seniors fault, it might be because of poor command structure, from a Squadron Commander who never shows up or a Deputy Commander for Cadets who never shows up.  However, generally speaking, the Squadron Commander and the Deputy Commander for Cadets should be involved in the daily activities of the cadets not the Deputy Commander for Seniors.

By default CDS does not have cadet promotions access (they don't have access to about 95% of other modules either), but if the CC assigns them Deputy Commander permissions as well, they will have everything, including cadet promotions.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 02, 2011, 09:00:57 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 08:53:19 PM
Nope....they are in charge of carrying out the TASK.....not the plan.

I see your "nope" and raise you a "I don't even think so".  The duties are about creating and administering the plans and programs around ES, not running activities.  There isn't even a requirement that an ESO be a qualified operator, and certainly most are not dual-tracked enough to do both air and ground taskings, etc. 

Quoth 20-1
Emergency Services (ES) Officer

Manages and directs emergency services activities.  They shall:
Develop agreements with agencies responsible for search, domestic emergencies, and civil defense.
Develop and maintain an adequate emergency service force.
Develop training programs to ensure that highly qualified ES personnel are available for search and rescue, and disaster
relief missions.
Develop plans and standard operating procedures to support the wing's emergency services program.
Maintain records to determine the status of resources (personnel, vehicles aircraft, radios and other emergency
equipment) available for ES missions.

Sounds like they "run" them to me.

I have to also add......Most full blown ES activites are not "run" at the squadron level anyways.  The IC's are appointed at the wing level and by defalut technically all ES activities are wing affairs.

But that is an argument for another thread.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on December 02, 2011, 09:05:09 PMBy default CDS does not have cadet promotions access (they don't have access to about 95% of other modules either), but if the CC assigns them Deputy Commander permissions as well, they will have everything, including cadet promotions.

In a preferred situation, the CDC and CDS are both working together, with each having the majority of their duties in their respective area, but occasionally helping out as-needed on the other side of the house.  The houses really shouldn't be that split to start with.

I've seen more than one situation, though, where the CDS has little cadet program knowledge, and may well not even be that fond of "kids", which is why he's the CDS to start with.  Then, though some unexplainable mental process, decides to occasionally "get involved", or worse "fix things" on the cadet side, usually unbidden, and making things worse then they were.  I think for some, it might be mental math that says since the CDS has responsibilities for the adults, that side is somehow higher on the food chain than the cadets.

If the CDS isn't asked to help, he should stay in his lane.

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 09:11:56 PM
Sounds like they "run" them to me.

Manages and directs, in this context, means he sets the agenda, turns the commanders high-level goals into workable plans, and
insures whatever is done meets the plan and the regs.

It doesn't necessarily mean he's the one expected to grab a compass and teach pace counts, etc.

This is becomes even more true as you move up the echelons with the same role.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 02, 2011, 09:15:18 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 09:11:56 PM
Sounds like they "run" them to me.

Manages and directs, in this context, means he sets the agenda, turns the commanders high-level goals into workable plans, and
insures whatever is done meets the plan and the regs.

It doesn't necessarily mean he's the one expected to grab a compass and teach pace counts, etc.

This is becomes even more true as you move up the echelons with the same role.

I agree....and never said that he is a wrench turner.   But "running" an operation....any operation.....is about supervision.

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 09:22:58 PMI agree....and never said that he is a wrench turner.   But "running" an operation....any operation.....is about supervision.

I suppose, but far too many members think the staffers are the ones who are really supposed to be doing all the work, which is not how it's supposed to be.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 02, 2011, 09:43:32 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 09:22:58 PMI agree....and never said that he is a wrench turner.   But "running" an operation....any operation.....is about supervision.

I suppose, but far too many members think the staffers are the ones who are really supposed to be doing all the work, which is not how it's supposed to be.

Well.....I am talking about how it is supposed to be too.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 02, 2011, 09:13:14 PM

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on December 02, 2011, 09:05:09 PMBy default CDS does not have cadet promotions access (they don't have access to about 95% of other modules either), but if the CC assigns them Deputy Commander permissions as well, they will have everything, including cadet promotions.

In a preferred situation, the CDC and CDS are both working together, with each having the majority of their duties in their respective area, but occasionally helping out as-needed on the other side of the house.  The houses really shouldn't be that split to start with.

I've seen more than one situation, though, where the CDS has little cadet program knowledge, and may well not even be that fond of "kids", which is why he's the CDS to start with.  Then, though some unexplainable mental process, decides to occasionally "get involved", or worse "fix things" on the cadet side, usually unbidden, and making things worse then they were.  I think for some, it might be mental math that says since the CDS has responsibilities for the adults, that side is somehow higher on the food chain than the cadets.

If the CDS isn't asked to help, he should stay in his lane.

Exactly.

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 08:48:17 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on December 02, 2011, 08:42:13 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on December 02, 2011, 08:00:49 PMThe ES officer is in charge of planning, training and executing all ES actiivties.....hence the gray line of authority.

Fixed that for you.  I have a philosophical issue with that - the ESO is not a wrench turner, he's a planner and administrator for others.

Then who is in CHARGE of executing the plan?

The Incident Commander.  The ESO is not the executor - his job is all about planning and working on relationships before the incident.