AirCrew Air Drop Certification Program?

[RADIOMAN015]

Interestingly, the regulation authorizes air to ground drops in an emergency, but yet provides no means for pilots & aircrew members to become proficient at this potential mission skill set.

Perhaps CAP National Hq should consider some limited authorization for learning how to do airdrops.  I know in our wing we have two military controlled practice drop areas & one is right on the base our squadron is located.   I'm sure there's other wings that have access to military drop zones.  Since these are controlled, limited access areas, there's little chance of personal liability incidents.

Again from my prospective, we seem to train for every other possible contingency, yet this air drop type activity seems to be a no starter with National.
RM

[lordmonar]

I think we discussed this before.  Canada's CAP has a pre-packaged surivival kit with a radio, food, shelter material, water, etc that is desiged to be dropped from a SAR aircraft.

I think we need to have rule for this and way of practicing.

It make sense.

but heck....I think we should have airborne ground teams too.   

[shorning]

...Canada's CAP.

CASARA

[NIN]

but heck....I think we should have airborne ground teams too.   

But we did, Patrick!   

Seriously, though, what the regulations speak of for "air drop" is not what you're picturing. 

BITD (which was a Wednesday, according to Stonewall, and I have no reason to doubt him on that fact), CAP planes that had trouble communicating with ground personnel used "message drops."   These were weighted devices on a brightly colored flag/message holder (picture a large remove-before-flight tag with a "capsule" at the bottom to stuff the message in) that were delivered from a low altitude over a ground team, crash survivors, etc.  A little bit like the wide crepe paper streamer and wooden dowel Wind Drift Indicators we used to toss from Cessnas prior to an afternoon of dispatching static line students.    These were far more popular when portable radio communications were less available to grunts on the ground.

I recall using this method WIWAC, but only once, and my ground team leader acted like the thing was radioactive and wouldn't let anybody near it once it hit the ground.

Much like the "flour bombing" competitions at local airport open houses, delivering one of these things on target is truly a lost art.

But then again, I'm thinking that practicing would infer that you would even have a message drop device in the aircraft to begin with, and I haven't been in a CAP plane in the last 20 years or so that _did_ have one of these devices in it.  And its not like "Oh, hey, wait, let me fly back to base to get a message drop device, so I can fly back and throw it down to you."

What you folks are picturing as "airdrop," static-lining a sack of emergency supplies to victims at a crash scene on the ground, is likely not possible with any aircraft in the CAP inventory save the GA-8 Airvan (and keep it under 90kts while you do it!) or a U-206 with the cargo doors removed.

[RiverAux]

Without having more detailed guidance on when exactly this technique is allowable I see no reason to worry about practicing it. 

[lordmonar]

The package I saw was about the size of a seat cushion with a long streamer for identification and deceleration.

I'm not talking about static lining 250lb CDS with 10' rounds out the side of a Cessna...but more like a 10 lb survival kit.

Something that can be chucked out the side window of a 182.

But now that you mention it.....the GA-8 would be great for large package delivery and team drops. 

[RADIOMAN015]

CAPR 60-1, para 2-1b, "Basic Rules" prohibits the dropping of objects (except to save a life).

My understanding is National Headquarters has been approached on this matter of  object drop training and has disapproved the request informally at this time.  The specific reason given was that the risk does not warrant it.

So perhaps the regulation needs to be changed to delete "except to save a life", because frankly, if one can't practice this concept, there's absolutely no reason to have an exception in the regulation, because the risk definitely doesn't warrant it. 

It's unfortunate, that the risk can't be studied and perhaps some mitigation methods can be implemented, as others have posted on this thread.
RM   

   

[RiverAux]

Thats what I meant by the need for additional specific guidance.  Lacking that, I agree that the lifesaving exception needs to be eliminated. 

[Al Sayre]

I think that they are afraid of "hey y'all watch this" during practice sessions...

[cap235629]

here is the training:

In order to save a life, drop anything that is deemed appropriate to save such life by:

1. Handing said item to observer.
2. observer opens window
3. pilot flies over target at 100 AGL
4. observer drops item

Really, how hard do we need to make things?

[PHall]

here is the training:

In order to save a life, drop anything that is deemed appropriate to save such life by:

1. Handing said item to observer.
2. observer opens window
3. pilot flies over target at 100 AGL
4. observer drops item

Really, how hard do we need to make things?

You forgot item 5.

5. item released by observer strikes horizontal stabilizer damaging both the aircraft and the item being dropped.


Dropping stuff from an aircraft is a lot harder then it looks.
Especially if you actually want to hit a target area, i.e. the survivor.

[A.Member]

Dropping stuff from an aircraft is a lot harder then it looks.
Especially if you actually want to hit a target area, i.e. the survivor.

Pfft...whatever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLymisVND-4

[capchiro]

While at NLOC this year I reviewed a case that may have something to do with CAP's attitude on this.  Seems like it was in the mid 70's.  A senior member and two cadets were in a Cessna push/pull (337?).  I believe it was the pilot's personal A/C.  Anyhow, they were on a Sarex and went looking for a downed simulated A/C.  They found it and tried to radio base about their find.  Radio was on the fritz.  The pilot decided to have one of the cadets drop a non-functioning packed parachute out to mark and prove their find.  Unfortunately the parachute deployed somewhat when dropped.  I believe it got caught on something.  Part of the chute wrapped around the tail and a crash resulted.  The female cadet that was injured parents sued CAP.  It seems that the local court did not side with CAP when asked to dismiss the action.  I am not sure what happened after that, but it was at least bad press.  I think it was Kiker vs. CAP, IIRC.. 

[RiverAux]

That case would seem to represent a good argument for a training program so long as there is still (limited) authorization in CAP regulations to perform these activities. 

[Trung Si Ma]

BITD (which was a Wednesday, according to Stonewall, and I have no reason to doubt him on that fact)

About 1530 local 

CAP planes that had trouble communicating with ground personnel used "message drops."   These were weighted devices on a brightly colored flag/message holder (picture a large remove-before-flight tag with a "capsule" at the bottom to stuff the message in) that were delivered from a low altitude over a ground team, crash survivors, etc.  A little bit like the wide crepe paper streamer and wooden dowel Wind Drift Indicators we used to toss from Cessnas prior to an afternoon of dispatching static line students.    These were far more popular when portable radio communications were less available to grunts on the ground.

I've only done this once, back in the 70's out of a C-185 (N2236T) in AKWG to some folks up in the Brooks Range.  Now that aircraft HT's are so cheap, we don't seem to need this skill set anymore.

[NIN]

Dropping anything more than a message out of the plane is fraught with hazards.

A 10lb package booted out of a 182 (BTW, I challenge you to try to wedge that package out of the window of a 182 just sitting on the ground..<GRIN>) sounds like a lawsuit looking for a date/time group.  You get whacked in the head with a message-drop streamer, its probably going to hurt but not be fatal.

Get whacked in the head by 10lbs of survival equipment attached to a streamer, its probably going to be fatal.

No, dropping things from aircraft should probably not be CAP's province.  If there is a need to get survival equipment to someone that remote, its probably a job better left to helicopters (and I submit to you: any target that you could/would attempt to hit with a "dropped survival kit" is probably as good a candidate for a helo to just land at).

I have a fair amount of experience with dispatching things from aircraft, from 500ft AGL to over 23,000 ft AGL.  Some of these things had parachutes, some were even on static lines. Others were not parachute equipped.  (ask me sometime what a can of fire-resistant hydraulic fluid looks like when it impacts the ground at terminal velocity  )  Its not a skill-set that really needs to remain in CAP's wheelhouse in this day & age. Not with the present litigious environment, our assigned equipment and present-day missions, the skill sets behind the wheel, or the totally risk-adverse operational culture thats developed over the last 30 years or so.

BTW, an object dropped from a plane, as long as its not terribly draggy (ie. a parachute or a piece of cardboard/plywood) is likely *not* going to hit the tail unless you throw it upwards while dispatching it, in an attempt to hit the tail.  Something like a survival kit (like the old seatpack ones) would fall away from the aircraft while traveling horizontally with the aircraft at initially the same speed until the horizontal velocity is reduced by aero-drag and the vertical velocity component as it accelerates to terminal. 

Unless there is something that causes that object to slow down fast enough in the first 1/2 second of its freefall to strike the tail, its well below the aircraft by the time the tail comes along. 

Now, open parachute in the door or the plane?  Yeah, buddy, all bets are off. Someplace on the net there is a pic of a C-206 with most of its side missing where a reserve opening in the aircraft pulled the attached jumper thru the side of the aircraft when the chute got out the door...bad juju. But thats different. Thats an object that has a much higher 'drag to weight' ratio than, say, a small streamer or a more solid, compact object.

Stick to radios, air-to-ground signals, and non-CAP helicopters.

BTW, I'd be really interested to hear about the moron to attempted to drop a packed parachute out of a 337.   I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it sounds awfully "urban legend-ish."  Why would anybody have a parachute in a C-337? On a CAP mission?  My guess is the details are a little different..

[Short Field]

here is the training:
In order to save a life, drop anything that is deemed appropriate to save such life by:
1. Handing said item to observer.
2. observer opens window
3. pilot flies over target at 100 AGL
4. observer drops item

5.  crew is permanently grounded

CAPR 60-1e. Sustained flight below an altitude or lateral distance from any object of 1,000 ft during the day or 2,000 ft at night is prohibited except for takeoff and landing or in compliance with ATC procedures (such as IFR flight). At no time will the pilot allow the aircraft to come within 500 feet of terrain or obstructions unless taking off or landing.