Pushups = Hazing ??

Started by abysmal, March 09, 2005, 12:05:53 AM

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Greg

Quote from: abysmal on March 11, 2005, 04:43:52 PM
Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:48:24 PM
Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....
Ahhh, a "problem cadet".  Basically, any cadet who doesn't salute an officer (or whatever) because he doesn't care and because his attitude stinks.

Take a look at this article...

It was SOOO much easier on active duty in the 82nd.
Everyone Wanted to be there and fought hard to get a slot.
The personal motivational levels were always High to begin with....

I sure hope so!  Take a look at what it takes to even be in the 82nd!  Actually, take a look at what it takes to even get into the military period.  You either have to spend nine weeks (i think) at BMT, or you have to do ROTC or one of the Academies.  Any one of those decisions takes a lot of fore-thought and then a high level of dedication to see it through.  If you're in the military, the chances are, you really want to be there.

However, in CAP, all you have to do to join is fill out a form.  I'm sure we both know of plenty of cadets who joined, and then found out that CAP just wasn't for them, and then quit.  What you get out of CAP is directly proportional to your dedication what you put into CAP, and the chances are that a cadet who has a loser attitude and refuses to salute an officer isn't very dedicated, and therefore, isn't getting much out of CAP (and probably doesn't care, either).

I can see how it's hard to adjust though.  I attended Hawk after I attended PJOC.  BIG MISTAKE.  I reacted a lot with the cadets there who would complain about PT being too hard or something.  I think I even said "Just shut up and do it- we did this when we were bored at PJOC" to a cadet once. 

The bottom line that I was missing was this: We weren't at PJOC, so I shouldn't hold a cadet to PJOC standards.  Even so, CAP is hardly anything near the 82nd Airborne, so try not to compair us to the 82nd Airborne, as hard as that may be.  :)
C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron

abysmal

Like I said, things have changed ALOT in the 20 years since I was a Cadet.
We were pretty much "Hard Chargers" back then, or at least the small group that I hung with.

I would be very happy if I could just cultivate a couple really dedicated Cadets that would set their sites on the Spatz and start working on getting there.

It seems like such an ATTAINABLE goal to me.
But motivating them to see that is a whole nother story....

Much to learn on my part..
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

MIKE

Quote from: abysmal on March 11, 2005, 07:21:35 PM
I would be very happy if I could just cultivate a couple really dedicated Cadets that would set their sites on the Spatz and start working on getting there.

It seems like such an ATTAINABLE goal to me.
But motivating them to see that is a whole nother story....

There are two A's in Spaatz boys.

The plaque for the Eaker cadets is in the ladies room.  ;D

Kidding aside... As a CP senior don't focus on getting cadets to Spaatz... Focus on providing a quality cadet program which produces quality cadets of all grades... Some cadets may set Spaatz as a personal goal... Provide an environment that can help them reach it.

IMO getting promoted every two months and getting Spaatz isn't what the program is all about... If you are cranking ranks you might be able to pass the tests but are you really "getting it".  IMO it's what you learned along the way that matters not how far you got or how fast you got there.
Mike Johnston

Pylon

I agree with Mike's thoughts on this.  I think the Spaatz is really more of a personal goal.  There hasn't been a Spaatz cadet in this group in quite a long time - I haven't known of one since 1997.  However, over those years this Group has turned out plenty of fine cadets with incredible leadership skills, experience, and other skills and interests as a result of the CAP Cadet Program.

There are a number of cadets who do quite well, learn a vast amount of what is available to them, and yet never "crank the rank" to Cadet Colonel.  Sure, it is attainable.  However, when I was a cadet it was not something I was particularly interested in either.  It seemed more worthwhile to gain experience in more hands on manners.

YMMV.   :)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

abysmal

Both of you are essentially correct in what your saying.

BUT...

The opposite holds just as true.

When a cadet makes it to a rank and then just STOPS all progression.
Just how many years should a cadet stay a 2nd Lt and make no further rank progress.???

Making rank is NOT all that hard.
It just requires a small bit of desire and some matching work/effort to be put forth.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

arajca

A C/2d Lt who has decided to stop promoted has also decide NOT to follow CAP regs. CAP requires cadets to complete a minimum of two achievments - not promotions -  per year. A cadet can be 2b'd for failure to progress. Whether a commander takes it that far is entirely up to them.

In writing an expectations letter for the cadet commander, I specifically stated they are expected to meet this (which probably shouldn't need saying, but I did anyway) and exceeding this minimum is strongly encouraged. As expectations letters are developed for each cadet staff position, that will be included. One thing I am looking at is failure to progress will result in removal from cadet staff - unless the cadet has completed the Spaatz.

abysmal

Quote from: arajca on March 11, 2005, 10:34:46 PM
A C/2d Lt who has decided to stop promoted has also decide NOT to follow CAP regs. CAP requires cadets to complete a minimum of two achievments - not promotions -  per year. A cadet can be 2b'd for failure to progress. Whether a commander takes it that far is entirely up to them.

In writing an expectations letter for the cadet commander, I specifically stated they are expected to meet this (which probably shouldn't need saying, but I did anyway) and exceeding this minimum is strongly encouraged. As expectations letters are developed for each cadet staff position, that will be included. One thing I am looking at is failure to progress will result in removal from cadet staff - unless the cadet has completed the Spaatz.

The more I learn the more I realize just how little I know...

I am doing my best to get all 5 of my LTs to get their SDAs done.
That seems to be the #1 stumbling block for all of them to move on to their 1st Lt rank.

Can you site me the reg that stipulates the "cadets to complete a minimum of two achievments - not promotions -  per year"???

I would like to read that and relate it to all of them.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

Pylon

Quote from: abysmal
The more I learn the more I realize just how little I know...

I am doing my best to get all 5 of my LTs to get their SDAs done.
That seems to be the #1 stumbling block for all of them to move on to their 1st Lt rank.

Can you site me the reg that stipulates the "cadets to complete a minimum of two achievments - not promotions -  per year"???

I would like to read that and relate it to all of them.

Sure.  The Cadet Programs Manual is an excellent resource for information on how to run CP.  It's available online, like all CAP manuals and regulations.

Quote from: CAPR 52-16 Cadet Programs - Section 2-3, G
Page 8:

g.  Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be  terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3). 

There it is.  Plain and simple english!  :)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

abysmal

CAPR 35-3 is just what I was looking for.
THANKS.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

abysmal

Quote from: Pylon on March 11, 2005, 11:43:34 PM
Quote from: CAPR 52-16 Cadet Programs - Section 2-3, G
Page 8:

g.  Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be  terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3). 

Not a lot of meat in there.

CAPR 35-3 (C2) (IMC 90-1) (E)
SECTION A - CADETS
3. Causes To Terminate Cadet Membership:
b. Failure to progress satisfactorily in the CAP cadet
program.
c. Lack of interest demonstrated by failure to attend three
successive regular meetings without an acceptable excuse.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

abysmal

Quote from: Pylon on March 11, 2005, 11:43:34 PM


Sure.  The Cadet Programs Manual is an excellent resource for information on how to run CP.  It's available online, like all CAP manuals and regulations.

Quote from: CAPR 52-16 Cadet Programs - Section 2-3, G
Page 8:
g.  Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be  terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3). 

CAP REGULATION 52-16 (E)
CHAPTER 2 – PROGRAM ADMINISTRATION
2-3 PROGRESSION.
g. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3).
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

arajca

I put the "two acheivements not promotions" bit in because cadet airmen and NCO's get promoted with each acheivement (excluding the Armstrong), but cadet officers have two acheivements per promotion. Many members (seniors and cadets) forget that part.

Da Big Daddy K

Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 05:16:42 PM
Quote from: abysmal on March 11, 2005, 04:43:52 PM
Quote from: Greg on March 11, 2005, 03:48:24 PM
Snuffy always was a "Problem" Cadet though.....
Ahhh, a "problem cadet".  Basically, any cadet who doesn't salute an officer (or whatever) because he doesn't care and because his attitude stinks.

Take a look at this article...

It was SOOO much easier on active duty in the 82nd.
Everyone Wanted to be there and fought hard to get a slot.
The personal motivational levels were always High to begin with....

I sure hope so!  Take a look at what it takes to even be in the 82nd!  Actually, take a look at what it takes to even get into the military period.  You either have to spend nine weeks (i think) at BMT, or you have to do ROTC or one of the Academies.  Any one of those decisions takes a lot of fore-thought and then a high level of dedication to see it through.  If you're in the military, the chances are, you really want to be there.

However, in CAP, all you have to do to join is fill out a form.  I'm sure we both know of plenty of cadets who joined, and then found out that CAP just wasn't for them, and then quit.  What you get out of CAP is directly proportional to your dedication what you put into CAP, and the chances are that a cadet who has a loser attitude and refuses to salute an officer isn't very dedicated, and therefore, isn't getting much out of CAP (and probably doesn't care, either).

I can see how it's hard to adjust though.  I attended Hawk after I attended PJOC.  BIG MISTAKE.  I reacted a lot with the cadets there who would complain about PT being too hard or something.  I think I even said "Just shut up and do it- we did this when we were bored at PJOC" to a cadet once. 

The bottom line that I was missing was this: We weren't at PJOC, so I shouldn't hold a cadet to PJOC standards.  Even so, CAP is hardly anything near the 82nd Airborne, so try not to compair us to the 82nd Airborne, as hard as that may be.  :)


I LOVE TO SEE CADETS DO PUSHUPS THE MORE THE BETTER...AND PERSONALLY I DO NOT THINK OF IT AS HAZING... :o
BOHICA
The most one learns in the military is when one has no rank or responsibility so one can concentrate on learning

abysmal

Quote from: arajca on March 12, 2005, 01:55:59 AM
I put the "two acheivements not promotions" bit in because cadet airmen and NCO's get promoted with each acheivement (excluding the Armstrong), but cadet officers have two acheivements per promotion. Many members (seniors and cadets) forget that part.

I would love to go to a weekend training just to get an idea of all things that i don't even know that i don't know yet...
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

Pylon

Quote from: abysmal
I would love to go to a weekend training just to get an idea of all things that i don't even know that i don't know yet...

Squadron Leadership School is what you want.  :)

It's a weekend Senior Member training that will orient you to all aspects of running CAP at the squadron level.  They cover programs, regulations, practices, and all that good stuff.  Plus, you'll need it to get promoted eventually anyways - so might as well.

Check this schedule to find all the upcoming sessions of SLS.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

abysmal

Thanks for the pointer.
Doesn't look like there is anything coming to my wing, but i just missed one in New Mexico last weekend. Typical!
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

Slim

Quote from: abysmal on March 13, 2005, 05:09:51 AM
Thanks for the pointer.
Doesn't look like there is anything coming to my wing, but i just missed one in New Mexico last weekend. Typical!

Sorry to stray off topic, but being in Lake Havasu City, aren't you closer to Nevada and California than New Mexico?  Up there in the northwest corner of the state?

Most of my experience with Arizona is the complete opposite end (southeast corner).


Slim

abysmal

Pretty much.
I am right on the California border, just across the river. and Nevada is just an hour away as well.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

Briski

In my ever so humble opinion, it's better that we can't drop Cadets for pushups. As has been mentioned previously, it becomes like a crutch. After all, it's a lot easier to just say "DROP!" than to actually fix the problem.

Since we can't use pushups, we're forced to be creative. This requires some thought, which forces us to stop and *GASP!* think. Sometimes this may come in the form of "Has this Cadet been properly trained?" or "He seemed upset when he came in -- is this Cadet having trouble at home or school?" You know, actually thinking beyond "I need to make sure this Cadet remembers to salute me next time, and I can do this with the assistance of the front leaning rest."

It is incredibly easy to just yell at a Cadet to drop, without explaining the infraction, or how the Cadet can fix it. Since we don't have the option of PT for punishment, we are forced to (in theory) actually face the problem and gain experience working with people and solving problems.

The CAP Cadet Program is a youth development program. We aren't the Future Soldiers of America. Sure, some Cadets go on to serve in the military, but about the Cadet who is destined to be a manager at Wal-Mart? That's a great job that contributes to society, but he can't drop a cashier for pushups, can he? If we're trying to train leaders, we need to equip those young leaders with tools they can use when they leave our leadership laboratory and enter the real world.

Don't get me wrong, I've certainly faced situations when I absolutely wanted to smoke a Cadet. But since I was required by regulation to deal with those issues in another manner, I grew as a leader, and all of us grew as human beings.

Of course, your mileage may vary. :)
JACKIE M. BRISKI, Capt, CAP
VAWG Cadet Programs Team

...not all those who wander are lost...

abysmal

Quote from: Briski on March 17, 2005, 03:28:31 AM
, but about the Cadet who is destined to be a manager at Wal-Mart? That's a great job that contributes to society, but he can't drop a cashier for pushups, can he?

Can you just IMAGINE the change in Walmart if a customer could walk in there and tell a poor cashier who doesn't know how to make change to "Drop, and knock out 10"!!!

Ohhhhh, the sheeeer joy of it!! <VBG>
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona