Light Sport Aircraft

[C-150]

Just wondering if LSA will ever have a place in CAP? With their low operating cost some of the types may be great for SAR and damage survey flights etc.  Just a thought.

[Strick]

I would love to get my ultra light used for CAP.  I am debating about mounting my CAP radio in it,  I like to fly from the ranch to some of the SAREXS.

[Pumbaa]

Did you put the CAP decal on the tail yet?

[SJFedor]

Just wondering if LSA will ever have a place in CAP? With their low operating cost some of the types may be great for SAR and damage survey flights etc.  Just a thought.

Doutbtful. It's already cramped enough in a C-182 with some of our fluffier members, there's no way in hell you're gonna get a LSA off the ground with an effective crew.

Plus, you're still going to see the requirement for a PPL regardless.

[Pumbaa]

...a C-182 with some of our fluffier members, there's no way in hell you're gonna get a LSA off the ground with an effective crew.

Hey.. I resemble that remark!  Akuna Ma tata!

[Major Lord]

Just wondering if LSA will ever have a place in CAP? With their low operating cost some of the types may be great for SAR and damage survey flights etc.  Just a thought.

They will have a place in CAP; As a fresh new source of barely qualified pilots creating lots of SAR missions and dents in the dirt....

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

I think a fixed wing LSA would have only very limited uses for CAP, such as being a highbird, since they can only have 1 or 2 person crews.  I suppose you could use them for visual SAR, but since you would only have 1 effective observer it would take a lot more passes to thoroughly search an area.  For electronic SAR I suppose they would work ok since most ELT missions only use a 2-person crew anyway, but that mission is rapidly dropping in importance, though eventually CAP may begin to pick up more PLB missions as those items become increasingly popular and the locals get tired of responding to them and become more interested in using CAP rather than a multi-hundred $/hour helicopter.

[C-150]

Very true about about the crew size, however I remember when we used a lot of 150/152 Cessna aircraft. I know the situation has changed but a 2 man crew is still effective and a lot of 172/182 missions are flown with 2 anyway. Also most of the LSA on the market have wider cabins than the old 150's. Plus it might widen the pilot base some. From a money stand point this would be worth exploring. Also most of the LSA can come with a total package....IFR...the works.

[Spike]

Back years ago, my Squadron built an Aerocopter.  It was awesome, until it flew right into the side of the  hangar. 

[C-150]

As far as barley experienced pilots.....true in some cases....but where have you been. LSA are flown by some ATP guys. I personally know of an American 757 Captain that flys one. Also know personally a retired USAF full bird and ex test pilot that flys LSA.

[twofivexray]

The Sky Arrow 600 gives superb visibility. I understand from the 3I website that it was originally designed as an observation aircraft for NATO.

With the wings and engine above and behind the cockpit, the view is more like a helo than an airplane.

http://www.skyarrow.com/mainwebsite_html/eng_informazioni.htm

[C-150]

A local Sheriff's Dept here has a skyarrow. More cost effective than a helicopter and a good SAR and observation platform. Think something like that would be great for CAP.  Also with our relationship with Cessna the new 162 would be worth looking at. More room than the 150.....better economy on fuel. Time to think outside the box. The high gadets are good...but it is back to basics to get the job done. Think the AF has learned that. F-22's are great....but low and slow kills insurgents much better. LSA would be much more effective for SAR...no doubt!

[RiverAux]

How can a two-seat airplane be more effective for visual SAR than a traditional CAP 3-person aircrew? 

Even if we totally changed our aircrew training and told the pilot that part of his job is now visual search, a significant portion of his time is still going to be spent on flying the airplane.  So, at best you would have maybe 1.25-1.5 people looking out the window rather than 2 people? 

[BillB]

Riveraux
What's traditional about three place aircraft in CAP? For many-many years almost all CAP aircraft were two place, L-4, L-5, L-16 aircraft. And I doubt the find rate was any different than the current number of finds. Plus a lot cheaper to fly.

[Eclipse]

A local Sheriff's Dept here has a skyarrow. More cost effective than a helicopter and a good SAR and observation platform. Think something like that would be great for CAP.  Also with our relationship with Cessna the new 162 would be worth looking at. More room than the 150.....better economy on fuel. Time to think outside the box. The high gadets are good...but it is back to basics to get the job done. Think the AF has learned that. F-22's are great....but low and slow kills insurgents much better. LSA would be much more effective for SAR...no doubt!

Our missions going forward are about tech and gear, not the Mark-I eyeball.  Whether its ARCHER, SDIS, sensor package, or just plane 'ol
pics from the air, we need capacity for both crew and toys.

Then there's the fact that our aircraft are multi-role - basic transportation or our people, blood / organs, officials, victims (rarely), and of course O-Rides, all of which need more seats, not less.

The general move to 182's for that reason alone was a good idea, not to mention the advantages of the glass instrumentation.

There is little to no advantage of smaller airplanes with limited capacity, range and function beyond people who like those airplanes trying to make a case because they aren't rated for the bigger ones.  That, or some dream that they could fly their POV for SAR.

We might as well start the annual discussion about ultralights.

[Hawk200]

As far as barley experienced pilots.....true in some cases....but where have you been. LSA are flown by some ATP guys. I personally know of an American 757 Captain that flys one. Also know personally a retired USAF full bird and ex test pilot that flys LSA.

Not representative of LSA pilots in general. Those are exceptions, not rules.

What's traditional about three place aircraft in CAP? For many-many years almost all CAP aircraft were two place, L-4, L-5, L-16 aircraft. And I doubt the find rate was any different than the current number of finds.

Older aircraft and cheaper at the time. I would doubt the find rate was equivalent or better than our three person crews. Unless we have legitimate statistics with the proper numbers, we would probably never know.

We might as well start the annual discussion about ultralights.

Is it actually yearly now? I missed it last year. Guess I was lucky.

[C-150]

As usual on here people go to the extreme. I was not talking about ditching the current fleet. For that matter more lifters are needed as well. In some cases a Cessna 208 would be great for CAP. When I said LSA might have a place I meant as a supplement. SAR. O flights, training etc as a cost effective platform. As far as traditional 3 man crew....that has only been in the 10 years or so maybe a little further back. The fleet was made up of 150s super cubs and even T-34As for many years. I have flown several missions with a 2 man crew worked fine then and can work again. There are safety concerns..yes. But we had very few accidents then as well.

[RiverAux]

But we had very few accidents then as well.

Oh, I don't know about that at all.  CAP's accident rate is lower now than back in those days.  Not saying anything about why that is, but its true. 

But, I suppose BillB is right about our "traditional" aircraft.  But at least for the last 20 years or so, 4-seaters have dominated CAP. 

[Major Lord]

Now don't get me wrong, I think that LSA are cool, and will make flying slightly more affordable for one class of aviators, and allow another class ( those who busted FAA physicals, etc) to get  in the cockpit once again. ( Like the above mentioned ATP and retired Col mentioned above) More airplanes with elderly pilots, high blood pressures, and  bad tickers, as well as lots of newbie pilots, will translate to more missions for CAP. I know that the original post was meant to suggest that these aircraft would serve CAP well as a low-cost (kind of) ship, but I think we all know that that is just not going to happen. Ever. You may as well dream of CAP helicopters and Paramedics.

Major Lord

ps. My post number of 666 today does not mean I am in league with Satan.... We're just friends.

[C-150]

The above mentioned ATP has not "busted a medical" he is current. He is still employed and 10 years from retirement. He flys 757 for $$ and owns an LSA as well as a Mooney Ranger.Too many stereaotype LSA and the pilots that fly them without any hands on knowledge of same. I had an FBO owner call them toys and not real airplanes....what an idiot..on his ramp he has 3 Cessna 150's that he rents out for instruction. They are just about 100 lbs Gross more than an LSA and have less HP in the nose than LSA.  Oh and the retired full bird...don't let the retired word make you draw conclusions.....he is only 45 and retired last year....no bad ticker....no busted medical....hr also owns a 1943 Stearman PT-17.