Is this reasonable?

[ascorbate]

Let me first note that I am trying to be kind, generous and open-minded!

A fellow senior member (a former CFI) recently went for a Form 5 checkout in a glass Cessna 182 CAP airplane. He took two days off from work to complete the task... one day to prepare and the next day for the checkride... and this doesn't include the many hours spent behind the scenes with a CAP instructor pilot in the cockpit preparing nor the many hours reviewing for his Form 5 checkride with fellow senior pilots at the squadron.

His checkride day started at 9:30 AM and commenced with a 5 hour oral exam with the CAP check pilot. After this, they started the flying portion of the exam for 1.7 hours during which the check pilot remarked that he had another student waiting and wanted to terminate the flying portion of the exam "to be continued" at another time... time is now 5:45 PM same day with the senior member re-fueling the glass Cessna 182 airplane.

The senior member called me commenting that his nerves were shot... I could commisserate 110%. I thought he was a real trooper considering what he had gone thru for the day!

I won't recount every excruciating detail of the oral/flight exam but I have to say that this senior's experience left me completely uninspired. I am not currently Formed 5 in a glass Cessna 182... nor do I know why I would sign up... for such an ordeal.

I welcome the thoughts of my fellow CAP pilots/check ride pilots!

[RiverAux]

I don't know about the rest, but the check pilot cutting short the actual flight was total BS.  He needs to be called on the carpet by someone for that. 

[Flying Pig]

After putting in a whole day, and taking time off work, I would be livid if it got cut short, unless I was having training issues or it was something outside of our control.  But if I was progressing through the check ride properly, Id be having a discussion with the Check Pilot.  I would say the other student should wait, not end my full day just short of the sign off just to come back later.

[A.Member]

A 5 hour oral exam followed by at least 1.7 flying...to be continued?! 

Way unreasonable!  I've heard of this crap before and it needs to stop.  Keep in mind, these are pilots that already have a FAA ticket by an official FAA examiner prior to this CAP evaluation.  The purpose of a Form 5 checkride is just that...a checkride.  It is not lesson time or anything else.

If an evaluator cannot determine the proficiency level and competency of a pilot within a reasonable time frame (I'd offer 1.5 hour oral and 2 hour flying as a guide...give or take), then one of two things exist:  either the check pilot is completely incompetent (in which case he/she needs to go) or the pilot being tested is incompetent (in which case he/she doesn't pass).  Either way, the entire session should be able to be completed within about 4 hours.

[Pace]

Disclaimer: I am not a current CAP check pilot, and I understand that my experience is not with CAP.  However, essentially a check ride is a check ride anywhere you go (or at least it should be that way since the PTS doesn't change).

Just my two cents from doing final stage checks/end of course tests for a Part 141/142 flight school/training center for over year:

There is absolutely no reason for a F5 to take that long, even in the worst case scenario.  If you can't get a good feel for a pilot's knowledge in less than 2-3 hours on the ground (assuming you're being extremely thorough) and skills in 1.0 - 1.5, you either need to reorganize you plan of action to be more efficient, stop BSing around, stop treating it as a training lesson, don't ask every single question in every section of the oral exam guide (or don't use it at all), or stop wasting the person's time and just fail them if they clearly don't meet the standards.   It does take experience to get to a point of efficiency with check rides, so maybe this guy is a new or experienced CFI who is trying to get a handle on being an evaluator instead of an instructor.

Personally, I would be sending an email to the Wing stan/eval officer inquiring about this event.  Not pointing fingers or getting angry, simply asking questions to get the ball rolling.

[heliodoc]

OK guys

Let me tell you a little story....
Coming from one Midwestern state to another and in the same region, iI had amassed a total of 20hr in the glass.  Coming to the new Wing, I neede to do a new Form 5, my old one was overdue.  Called one instructor who was sent to Independence, KS for his "free" training as CAP Check Pilot...guys doesn't return phone calls, schedule a couple of flights in June 2008.  Got a couple of hours in, thought I was doing pretty good to gets a Form 5 signed off after 1.7.  Schedule ANOTHER 4 hours in July 2008 and had to travel 70 miles away TWICE 4.8 hrs later....NO Form 5

Schedule another bunch of time in the G1000 in Aug 2008 for ANOTHER approximately 4 hours...... NO Form 5!!!!

Now I get mad ..and then cool down ...call the former Wing I was in and contacted BOTH former Wing CC and DO in Oct 2008.  Drove the 500 miles to get the Form 5 done and got the Form 5 and an Instrument check ALL IN THE SAME day.

Can't tell you why this is happenin'  Is this the NEW CAP jump thru hoops program?

Maybe those certain CAP Check Pilots need a little addresssing on how to stop wasting members time... MAYbe the State Directors need to check.

There a lot of problems with the G1000 program and I AM SORRY that it is happeNing in other Wings.  Soem needs to sit down with these "Gods of CAP Aviation" and really ask the hard question WHY.  I know a number of FBO's out there that can check the general public in G1000 sysytems and NOT waste people's time.

There needs to to be a HEAVY FITS and 1AF compliance check on this program and its CFI's.

The airplane is not difficult to fly  and now I know thru this that are other Wings with people wasting other peoples time

Feel free to PM me.....  I may not be making friends here if some of the lurkers are  reading this.....But you know who you are when it comes to wasting precious time, money and resource by not finishing people .....maybe those CFI's need a DELAYED check ride and get run around the countryside themselves for a little while

[es_g0d]

When the G1000 / Nav III cockpit first came online the initial push was to train all instrument pilots to a level of instrument competency in the airplane from the get-go.  This necessitated all the ground school, videos, FITS syllabi, mandatory time in the airplane, and finally the Form 5.

Ugh.  We're asking volunteers to pass what is nearly an airline line check, with airline equipment.  This is an attainable goal, but not right out of the box.  And its not appropriate for us to expect EVERY member who's checking out in the G1000 to attain this level.  Its not even necessary.

My opinion (really?  aren't you hoping I'll share it with you?) is that the near-prohibition against "VFR-only" checkrides was probably not the right way to go.  I think we should check out (instrument) pilots as VFR-only until they're comfortable with the operation of the avionics, and eventually enough osmosis will occur that those pilots will be READY to sit down for a course on IFR operations.  After all, its still just a 182.

AFTER ALL, ITS STILL JUST A 182.  And, surprisingly, it hand-flies JUST LIKE a 182 (insert C-206 or your other G1000 equipped airplane here).

We don't know the other side to the checkride story, but at first blush a 5 hour oral and a 1.7 flight ought to be enough to evaluate competency.  Considering the individual should have already been current in a 182, I honestly can't imagine what there was to talk about for 5 hours.  I'm curious to hear the other side, as I said.

Heliodoc, I saw a marvelous list of rules for managing an organization of volunteers.  The first cardinal sin was to Never Ever Waste a Volunteer's Time.  On behalf of the entire organization, please accept my apology.  I don't have a solution for you, but if you have to go through that much difficulty to even get to a G1000 equipped airplane, is it really even worth it?  That's rhetorical, however ... I hope you're able to finish up with a minimum of difficulty.

[Gunner C]

WIWA Gp/CC I had one of the best check pilots in CAP.  He was a 5-figure hour airline pilot, CFII, etc.  I went along on several check rides with him in the back seat and watched what he did.  He gave a VERY thorough interview and check ride that didn't take anywhere NEAR 6 or 7 hours. His critique at the end was great - going over slightly rough points and recommending further training. There's thorough and then there's overboard. This was, at face value, way overboard.

[NIN]

I've seen similar but not matching things happen over the years, but the intent there was not to get a really good pilot behind the yoke of a plane, but rather to "scare off" or exclude some pilots from flying certain pieces of equipment, and not even because they were bad or marginal pilots, but because they weren't in the with the rest of the "cool kids."

When I moved to my wing, we had 2 C-172s, a T-41 and 2 C-182s.  The 182s were treated by certain members of what could loosely be termed "the flying club" part of the wing as their own personal aircraft, and you had to get a whole bunch of "mother may I's" lined up to get a check ride. 

Then we got a 172SP (the 1999 equivalent of the G-1000 invasion: the "new hot toy"), and all kinds of checkride shenanigans broke out.  It got to the point where to be checked out to fly all five planes we had in the wing, you had to take 4 checkrides: A 172 checkride, a T-41 checkride, an SP checkride and then a 182 checkride. It was *ridiculous*. (I could *almost* buy the needing a separate checkout for the SP, but give me a break: apart from it being a heavier plane & fuel-injected, it was a @#$%^ 172 for crying out loud!)  So that SP sat at the airport with the other planes that were "hoarded" by the "flying club" and you had to basically kiss some major butt and ingratiate yourself with these people to get to fly it.  For a brief time, I don't think they wanted anybody to fly CO flights in the plane, and the joke was that they were afraid that the cadets might mess up the leather seats...

Heliodoc, your experience is not uncommon from what I understand: Calls to the check pilot go unanswered.  Why?  Because that would mean letting some guy who isn't in "the club" at one of the chosen few's airplanes.  They'd rather ignore you and waste your time than play as a member of the larger team. (can you imagine this kind of thing going on in the AF?  "Oh, I'm sorry, Captain, but this is Major Bagodonut's plane, and he's really not happy with others, especially you company grade officers, flying it.  Some LT took it one day due to an MX swap, and, well, he sort of had an accident during high-G maneuvering and the Major was not pleased. Took several weeks to get rid of the smell from his steed here.. You can take the hangar queen over there, however.")

I worked with a gent who was a pilot and eventually joined my CAP squadron.  We worked alongside the runway at the airport where the "flying club" part of the wing kept the "cool kid's planes," about 30 miles from where our squadron was based.  My friend had some flexibility at work (as did I.. I took advantage of a lot of lunch-hour skydiving during those years...) and worked his butt off to schedule a Form 5 with one of the check pilots based out of the airport next to us.  He could literally fly pretty much any time he needed to, nearly on a moment's notice.  Took 3 months of phone calls just to get a checkout in the 172M. 

We got a G-1000 a couple years back.  Other than SAREXs, I haven't seen it around the wing, and while I bet its been to some of the other flying units, those have been very short stints.  The DO at the squadron I'm in is a multi-thousand hour corporate pilot. Guy's flown Dorniers, Otters, Citations, Falcons, etc, etc, etc...  He's got a TON of time in MFD-equipped and full-up glass airplanes.  He's a CFI, too.  So when they were saying at commander's call "We'll get some others checked out in our new glass 182.." I approached the DOV and said "I'd like to get my guy checked out in the glass plane.." and he spent the next 5 minutes giving me this litany of why-nots.   

DOV: "Oh, its very complex... high-time instrument rated pilots only.."
Me: "OK, great. He's got thousands of hours and he's instrument rated.."
DOV: "Commercial? We want folks who check out in this plane to be commercial pilots.."
Me: "Yup, he's got a Commerical."
DOV: "Well, the initial checkouts will be for the checkpilots so they can check out others."
Me: "He just got his CAP check pilot signoff."
DOV: "But its a GLASS airplane. Does he have any time in glass?  We only want instructors who have experience in glass aircraft.."
Me: "Yeah, I think he's got enough time in glass airplanes. Did I mention he's an ATP and flies Citiation Tens, Falcon 2000s and a couple other kinds of very advanced corporate jets?"
DOV: "Well, the first couple courses will be very limited..."

Not uncommon, I don't think.

[sparks]

Sure, the G1000 takes more time to assimilate  but not 8 hours. The pilot took the initiative by getting the extra training required by the G1000. Many have bought the King course too, a very good primer. CAP isn't unique with instructors and check pilots imposing their own PERSONAL Standards on the unwitting applicant. If that weren't enough it sounds like this check pilot had a "revenue" student lined up that was a higher priority.

Just like cops with radar guns, many more drivers can be given tickets and examiners can fails many more applicants, but it isn't reasonable or within the intent of the task.

This pilot was hosed. The check pilot was out of line and should have the Stan/val and Ops officer review his methods.

[JGremlin]

And we wonder why CAP has a member retention problem.

[PHall]

A five hour oral exam!!! 
The oral part of my Air Force C-141 Instructor Flight Engineer Initial Qualification checkride wasn't even five hours. And we go into minute detail about aircraft systems and such too!

[heliodoc]

While my response was not to take away from ascorbate in any way shape or form.....

The attitude of some in CAP for either the C182 or RG series as someones PERSAF (Personal Air Force) aircraft and to say only a certain few can fly retractable aircraft or even G1000 acft is insane

Everyone here who has their commercial / Inst / etc and who has had their complex and high performance signoffs should not be held back by some of the "power hungry" CFI types who think they are now SUPT / UPT at some  primary base flying T6 Texan II's thinking their gonna flunk some guy

There does need to be some compliance checks on the certain few that went to Independence KS.  The Wings that are having the most troubles shouldd have a little IG trip around town and these CFI's should be asked where are the training syllabi AND screens to to do table top sim training..

I know the argument will be........go home to your own laptop or computer and "self train."  While I have not spent every evening doing this while I am studying for my FOI/ FAI.  I do KNOW with the money CAP has driveled away on the very few, there could have been many a training session by those folks who did.

I personally know the guy who was written up in AW& ST in 2005 when he was going thru the G1000 program and his question to me was  "is this still going on?'

He also is a well qualified and versed instructor in CAP and in NCR, so that beg the question...How come this is going on when I /we can go on down and PAY and FBO 200 dinero and get in done in probably 3 hours TOTAL ground and fly time??

Well, some CAPers would say...." Go ahead a do it BUT don't be running down CAP when you chose to got that route."

I'll say one thing ....... There is no real diiference in training between a CAP CFI and an FBO CFI as far as meeting PTS.  They all had to, meet the same PTS standards.  What is so special about CAP Check pilots when MANY are doing it on A5 and A7 missions when the rest of us are giving up our time as well as a CAP CFI??

Another argument I will here is...... WE CAP CFI give up our time, too.  

REALLY You are logging the time as well.  I f you do not want to provide the volunteer service of your CFI services, then head to your local FBO and make room for us guys that do want to do this for the good of CAP NOT somebody's PERSAF.  Some of these issues need to be addressed and somehow one or two people will be addressed in CAP as sour grapes types who are muckrakers

Again maybe 1AF needs to put a hammer down on ALL Stan Eval office and the ones who do not have an established FITS scenario binder need to gibve up their G1000 aircraft, lets say 6 months to a year to get a point across.

How would that sound to everyone as a possible solution:

NO FITS binder or syllabi ANYWHERE in a WING...say bye to your program for awhile for your penance...........

Anything more than a 3 hour combined check ride or NO Form 5 signatures....the CAP Check Pilot gets a 3 hour checkride himself, at his own cost.


There NEEDS to be a REAL ESTABLISHED on paper program NOT some seat of a Wings pants cobbled together for only a certain few.

[SJFedor]

Let me first note that I am trying to be kind, generous and open-minded!

A fellow senior member (a former CFI) recently went for a Form 5 checkout in a glass Cessna 182 CAP airplane. He took two days off from work to complete the task... one day to prepare and the next day for the checkride... and this doesn't include the many hours spent behind the scenes with a CAP instructor pilot in the cockpit preparing nor the many hours reviewing for his Form 5 checkride with fellow senior pilots at the squadron.

His checkride day started at 9:30 AM and commenced with a 5 hour oral exam with the CAP check pilot. After this, they started the flying portion of the exam for 1.7 hours during which the check pilot remarked that he had another student waiting and wanted to terminate the flying portion of the exam "to be continued" at another time... time is now 5:45 PM same day with the senior member re-fueling the glass Cessna 182 airplane.

The senior member called me commenting that his nerves were shot... I could commisserate 110%. I thought he was a real trooper considering what he had gone thru for the day!

I won't recount every excruciating detail of the oral/flight exam but I have to say that this senior's experience left me completely uninspired. I am not currently Formed 5 in a glass Cessna 182... nor do I know why I would sign up... for such an ordeal.

I welcome the thoughts of my fellow CAP pilots/check ride pilots!

Um...what?

That's absolutely ridiculous. Someone needs to be on the phone with the Wing AND Region DOV about that one.

It should take about 1.2-1.5 hours to go through the motions with the G1000, but I don't know why you'd have an oral exam THAT long! He musta been asking him 39-1 questions or something.

I don't like it, it smells like bovine fecal matter.

[ascorbate]

Anything more than a 3 hour combined check ride or NO Form 5 signatures....the CAP Check Pilot gets a 3 hour checkride himself, at his own cost.

Now, heliodoc's comment above, sounds reasonable!

I have remarked to some of the other senior officers in my squadron who know what transpired (above) that this is/was a glass C-182 checkride... it is not a Boeing 747 checkride, it is not a checkride to fly the President of the United States, it's not a checkride for flying into and out of Iraq nor are we flying to the outer reaches of the solar system... it's a C-182 checkride... nothing more and nothing less!

I feel strongly that if I (and maybe we as CAP pilots) remain mum about this, then we are quietly endorsing what some CAP checkride pilots are requiring of some Form 5 applicants. I believe that I would have terminated this particular Form 5 exam halfway thru the day and voiced my opinion that it's not worth it to fly a C-182 airplane CAP style... but that's me! One can only hope that events like this will bring about the change that seems to be begging to happen in this particular instance!

[Nomex Maximus]

Completely unreasonable.

I have had two CAP checkrides so far, both with very highly qualified CFIs. Both were demanding but both were completed in about 1.3 hours. And that included scaring the first CFI with one of my "landings"...

Speaking as an avionics software engineer who specializes in cockpit display and FMS software, it is rediculous to make a big deal about the glass cockpit stuff. It's just not that hard to figure out how to read off the airspeed, altitude and direction from a glass display sitting right in front of you. The whole point of a glass cockpit is that it is supposed to make things easier to do in an airplane. Yes, there should be some ground instruction in how to navigate through the menus, and then some time with a CFI to make sure you are OK in the air with it, but it ain't like flying the space shuttle...

[DG]

Anything more than a 3 hour combined check ride or NO Form 5 signatures....the CAP Check Pilot gets a 3 hour checkride himself, at his own cost.

Now, heliodoc's comment above, sounds reasonable!

I have remarked to some of the other senior officers in my squadron who know what transpired (above) that this is/was a glass C-182 checkride... it is not a Boeing 747 checkride, it is not a checkride to fly the President of the United States, it's not a checkride for flying into and out of Iraq nor are we flying to the outer reaches of the solar system... it's a C-182 checkride... nothing more and nothing less!

I feel strongly that if I (and maybe we as CAP pilots) remain mum about this, then we are quietly endorsing what some CAP checkride pilots are requiring of some Form 5 applicants. I believe that I would have terminated this particular Form 5 exam halfway thru the day and voiced my opinion that it's not worth it to fly a C-182 airplane CAP style... but that's me! One can only hope that events like this will bring about the change that seems to be begging to happen in this particular instance!

There is a LOT more to this check ride than has been presented.

But the information will be held confidential so as not to breach any right of privacy or other rights of the pilot who was evaluated.

[Flying Pig]

So the trainee sucked?

[ascorbate]

So the trainee sucked?

...the applicant is a former CFI and Form 5 pilot and is most qualified to fly C-172s and C-182s PERIOD!

There is a LOT more to this check ride than has been presented.

...undoubtedly true!
...and there might be more, but not a LOT more!

But the information is confidential to protect the pilot who was evaluated.

...fair!

I received a thorough debrief firsthand the same evening... not second hand and not based on rumors repeated over and over again by somebody else! And while I wasn't present during the checkride,  I'm not that far "off-base" from what actually happened either!

Dear DG: As noted previously, this senior's experience left me completely uninspired. I am not currently Formed 5 in a glass Cessna 182... nor do I know why I would sign up... for such an ordeal.

BTW: I think I have been kind, generous and open-minded!

[A.Member]

There is a LOT more to this check ride than has been presented.

But the information is confidential to protect the pilot who was evaluated.

B.S.!

Based on your comments, I assume you know the details but that is irrellevant.  Regardless of the details, there is nothing - and I repeat nothing - that justifies a 5 hour oral...or anything close to that.  If a candidate didn't do well on the oral it should've stopped there - he should've never gotten in the airplane for evaluation.   Period. 

Then to finally make it into the airplane and fly for nearly 2 hours without being able to make a determination of his capabilites?!  B.S.  That is on the check pilot. 

See previous comments, which are words to live by:  Don't waste people's time!

[DG]

There is a LOT more to this check ride than has been presented.

...undoubtedly true!

But the information is confidential to protect the pilot who was evaluated.

...fair!

BTW: I think I have been kind, generous and open-minded!

If you are to be fair, you must present all the facts.

Without that, this ex parte thread is misleading and inequitable conduct.

[KyCAP]

While I think that a 5 hour oral is a bit much, I can assure you that I know of an FAA DE that I know that every check flight (PVT, INST, COMM, ATP, etc) that I have ever heard of him managing consists of a 5 hour ORAL.   At first I had to re-read the first post to see where the thread poster originated.  It's not the same guy.  So, while long, not unheard of by FAA DE.  I am sure that there are others lurking on CAPTALK that also know of whom I speak. 

5 Hour oral for a Form 5 - I would expect to fail three hours earlier.

[JGremlin]

B.S.!

Based on your comments, I assume you know the details but that is irrellevant.  Regardless of the details, there is nothing - and I repeat nothing - that justifies a 5 hour oral...or anything close to that.  If a candidate didn't do well on the oral it should've stopped there - he should've never gotten in the airplane for evaluation.   Period. 

Agreed. But I'll add that not only should it have stopped at the oral. It should have stopped an hour into the oral. A 5 hour oral for a form 5 checkout in a 182 is simply unacceptable. I know folks whose initial CFI oral was shorter than that.

[RiverAux]

I think we all want form 5s to be very thorough and I'd rather have us err on the side of going too far.  What is the right length for the oral?  Well, I can't really offer a good opinion on that as I'm not a pilot. 

However, I can say that stopping the check ride and demanding that the member come back again because the check pilot supposedly had a student waiting is inexusable. 

There is nothing that can be said that is going to justify that in my book (assuming that is what the check pilot actually told the person getting the form 5).  Now, if the check pilot thought the person getting the form 5 wasn't cutting it he should have said that.  If he didn't deserve to pass, thats fine, but SAY that!

[caprr275]

NO WAY!

My CAPF 5 oral was about .5 with a 1.5 hour flight. Everything was covered. The 182 G1000 isnt a hard airplane to fly, you don't need to know how to reprogram the 2nd GPS while upside down in IMC. You need to know how to safely fly the airplane and meet the CAP flight standards.

If you add my instrument and both commercial orals together it is just over 5 hours.

[heliodoc]

eS_god

Thanks

I did get the Form 5 accomplished in Oct 08 with the blessing of two Wings...

I haven't flown the G1000 much lately because of involvement with the wildland fire assignments and my position with wildland fire, wildland urban interface issues, and numerous after work meetings with city council meetings, working with contractors contracted by the State doing timber thinning operations.

BUT after reading these posts, it sure seems there is an abundance in agreement that these other gentlemen got caught up in the "powers and prowesss" of CAP folks who think there are CAP standards exceeding FAA PTS and from what I gather in the 60-1 all references are to FAA PTS Standards

WHERE ARE THOSE CAP STANDARDS WRITTEN IN 60-1?  HUH??

But I will reiterate for all you CFI's with the CAP Golden Seal Check Pilot stamp....
DO NOT waste the members time.  Their time is as valuable as yours

If anyone care to look it up  but here where it says what a volunteer is worth today.....independentsector.org   that will tell you

DO NOT waste peoples time ESPECIALLY if they took a day off of work to do a 5 and if you as CFI are grumpy cuz YOU had to take time off.......check your IMSAFE profile and inform the member how long this is going to take and if one is not pleased with us , as members, with our flying, then DOCUMENT where we need the help.  I do recall now that most CAP CFI's have never really written things down to help.  Help the membership out and inform the person what is wrong and if the person is succesful  SIGN THE FORM 5 SAME day not months later as what has happened in some Wings

[DG]

What a lynch mob!

Did it ever occur to any of you to ask to hear the other side of the story?

Think of what it would be like if you were judges.  Think of all the money we could save, effectively doing away with the judicial system.  You would convict on the prosecutor's opening statement!  And then, over time, prosecutors would bring all manner of baseless charges and become expert at half-truth fact patterns.

Think of what it would be like if you all were commanders having the authority to sanction one of your members.

I would be scared to live in a jurisdiction or be part of an organization where you held any authority to make decisions.

In this case, much has been left out.  The pilot being evaluated should come forward with all the facts.  Or with permission to the thread originator or others to present all the facts. 

The details are being held confidential until the pilot waives any confidentiality.

But it can be said that this was not your normal check ride.  Because of past actions (violations) by the pilot.  And because of conduct (violations) during that day.  Egregious violations.  All confidential for now.

But as to the length of the check ride, would your outrage be tempered if you heard that the pilot's tedious actions and attitude were responsible for the unusal length? 

What would you say in the case (hypothetical, of course, and not with reference to any specific case), if you heard that the check pilot went out of his way to give the pilot all this extra time for paperwork that should have been completed before the beginning of the check ride?  Or for flight planning and performance that the pilot was responsible for after the beginning of the evaluation?  And if you heard that the check pilot went out of his way to allow the pilot extra time, to work on what should have been performed in much less time.  In other words, if you heard that the pilot wasted the check pilot's time, but rather than shutting down the check ride, the check pilot worked with the pilot and gave him what turned out to be much longer than the normal check ride?

This thread should be given to all CAP check pilots and check pilot examiners together with all of the facts of the case.  So they can see how they are viewed by some of the CAP pilots they are evaluating.  Then at the first hint of abnormal paperwork or performance, shut the check ride down.  With justification.

And as we all know, that means a failed Form 5, and the pilot is grounded.  Requiring, as a minimum, remedial work, and a follow-up Form 5 with the same check pilot.

Or better yet, print out and take this thread to your next check pilot.  Then notify me and I will get all the facts of this case to him under confidentiality.  Gee, do you think he may perceive in you an attitude that may have been the cause of this troubled check ride, in the first place?
   

[sparks]

If the "rest of the story", means that a 5 hour oral was required due to previous egregious actions, the check pilot should have failed the applicant after the first hour or two. Slugging through requirements beyond a few hours probably means the pilot doesn't get it. 3 more won't keep the eyes bright and mind open more like eyes glazed over and day dreaming. This may be an over simplification but without more facts it's all we can do.   

[DG]

If the "rest of the story", means that a 5 hour oral was required due to previous egregious actions, the check pilot should have failed the applicant after the first hour or two. Slugging through requirements beyond a few hours probably means the pilot doesn't get it. 3 more won't keep the eyes bright and mind open more like eyes glazed over and day dreaming. This may be an over simplification but without more facts it's all we can do.   

What if the first hour or two was spent by the pilot doing the aircraft questionnaire which was not done before the beginning of the check ride?

Should the check pilot fail him then, and not go further?

[RiverAux]

Did it ever occur to any of you to ask to hear the other side of the story?

Well, we aren't actually a jury.... but a situation was presented for comment on this board and we've commented on it based on the information presented.  I'm sure that everyone would be more than happy to revise their opinion based on another view of this situation.

[Flying Pig]

If details are being withheld, then this whole thread is useless.

[heliodoc]

REALLY??

Another side of a story, say it isn't so........

Wh

Hypothetical?  well then I guess this whole thread is hypothetical, huh?

These things are happening.  Either way CAP Form 5 is an over rated Flight review and if there are "attitude" problems with prep....then call it ...... Man up or shut up  or at the very least if the CFI and "Applicant for F5" has wasted that must time.....  Might as well turn into a "training session" and turn those lemons into lemonade. HUH?

[JGremlin]

What if the first hour or two was spent by the pilot doing the aircraft questionnaire which was not done before the beginning of the check ride?

Should the check pilot fail him then, and not go further?

Ok so the first two hours weren't part of oral. Fair enough. What about the other three? A checkpilot should be able to get through a 182 form 5 oral in an hour. If it was the pilots fault that the oral took as long as it did, why didn't the checkpilot put an end to it and tell the pilot to reschedule when he was more prepared?

[Pace]

But it can be said that this was not your normal check ride.  Because of past actions (violations) by the pilot.  And because of conduct (violations) during that day.  Egregious violations.  All confidential for now.

The check ride should have ended the moment a single "egregious" violation occurred.  If the pilot will do it with an examiner, they will do it without an examiner or worse.

But as to the length of the check ride, would your outrage be tempered if you heard that the pilot's tedious actions and attitude were responsible for the unusal length? 

No.  Under such circumstances, I do support the check pilot not giving the pilot a sign-off; however, the pilot should have been failed hours earlier.  For example, before it ever began:

if you heard that the check pilot went out of his way to give the pilot all this extra time for paperwork that should have been completed before the beginning of the check ride?  Or for flight planning and performance that the pilot was responsible for after the beginning of the evaluation?  And if you heard that the check pilot went out of his way to allow the pilot extra time, to work on what should have been performed in much less time.  In other words, if you heard that the pilot wasted the check pilot's time, but rather than shutting down the check ride, the check pilot worked with the pilot and gave him what turned out to be much longer than the normal check ride?

The check pilot sounds like a nice guy for bending over backwards and still not failing the pilot; however, the pilot was clearly not prepared for the F5 if what you have said is true and should not have made it into the ride, much less all day with no sign-off.  It almost sounds like the check pilot is stretching his prerogative a little too far.

[A.Member]

But it can be said that this was not your normal check ride.  Because of past actions (violations) by the pilot.  And because of conduct (violations) during that day.  Egregious violations.  All confidential for now.

The check ride should have ended the moment a single "egregious" violation occurred.  If the pilot will do it with an examiner, they will do it without an examiner or worse.

But as to the length of the check ride, would your outrage be tempered if you heard that the pilot's tedious actions and attitude were responsible for the unusal length? 

No.  Under such circumstances, I do support the check pilot not giving the pilot a sign-off; however, the pilot should have been failed hours earlier.  For example, before it ever began:

if you heard that the check pilot went out of his way to give the pilot all this extra time for paperwork that should have been completed before the beginning of the check ride?  Or for flight planning and performance that the pilot was responsible for after the beginning of the evaluation?  And if you heard that the check pilot went out of his way to allow the pilot extra time, to work on what should have been performed in much less time.  In other words, if you heard that the pilot wasted the check pilot's time, but rather than shutting down the check ride, the check pilot worked with the pilot and gave him what turned out to be much longer than the normal check ride?

The check pilot sounds like a nice guy for bending over backwards and still not failing the pilot; however, the pilot was clearly not prepared for the F5 if what you have said is true and should not have made it into the ride, much less all day with no sign-off.  It almost sounds like the check pilot is stretching his prerogative a little too far.

This is exactly right.

[ascorbate]

What a lynch mob!

Did it ever occur to any of you to ask to hear the other side of the story?

I'll be the first to concede that there are at least two sides to every story but it is now evident to me that you and I are not talking about the same pilot/same story!

In this case, much has been left out.

...no, not really... I received a thorough 1 hr debrief firsthand within 2 hours... the same evening!

One of the questions (during the 5 hr oral) involved discussion of the CAPF 9 (Release - for non CAP members). According to CAPR 60-1: "All non-CAP members other than Military/Federal employees must execute a CAPF 9, Release, and leave the form in a secure location on the ground known to the flight release officer (FRO) or mission IC/CMD." Simple and straightforward... that's all that CAPR 60-1 says... but I was told firsthand that the checkride pilot launched into a bunch of "what if this" and "what if that"... things which are not covered in CAPR 60-1. And apparently this continued into other areas... for 5 hours! The oral exam was then followed by a 1 hour preflight inspection exam. Once in the air, it apparently continued with touching on virtually every nuance of every piece of equipment in the cockpit!

Remember, I originally mentioned that I didn't want to recount every excruciating detail of the oral/flight exam!

BTW: I'm all for being thorough, complete and checked-out but it seems to this CAP pilot that a CAP checkride should be more about ascertaining current proficiency (with some learning along the way because none of us knows it all) versus being like an initial FAA Private, Instrument, Commercial or ATP oral/flight exam!

But it can be said that this was not your normal check ride.  Because of past actions (violations) by the pilot.  And because of conduct (violations) during that day.  Egregious violations.  All confidential for now.

Again, you and I are not talking about the same pilot/same story! This pilot has been in CAP for less than 2 years and was Formed 5 in a C-172... no problems, no past actions, no past violations, no egregious conduct... NO NOTHING!!! Please withdraw your indictment.

But as to the length of the check ride, would your outrage be tempered if you heard that the pilot's tedious actions and attitude were responsible for the unusal length?

No tedious actions and no attitude... you and I are not talking about the same pilot/same story... see above!

Gee, do you think he may perceive in you an attitude that may have been the cause of this troubled check ride, in the first place?

For the final time... you and I are not talking about the same pilot/same story... see above!

Now I'd like to inquire... who is lynching whom?

[ascorbate]

What if the first hour or two was spent by the pilot doing the aircraft questionnaire which was not done before the beginning of the check ride?

In this case, the applicant completed the C-182 questionaire one week beforehand at the squadron because we reviewed it with other propsective Form 5 applicants and other prospective glass C-182 CAP pilots.

[desertengineer1]

I'm curious what opinion your wing Stan Eval might have.  You do have one of those, right?

[ascorbate]

I'm curious what opinion your wing Stan Eval might have.  You do have one of those, right?

Yes, Maryland Wing does have a Stan/Eval officer!

I was looking to gather data points before taking this to another level (eg. group, wing)... and that is why I posted my original query here because this forum offers a wide cross-section of opinions and personal/professional experiences which I value as gauging how our organization is... or is not working!

[cnitas]

What are you waiting for?  Escalate this up the chain.

[SJFedor]

What are you waiting for?  Escalate this up the chain.

Correction. Have your commander, or the pilot himself, escalate this up the chain. The less involvement you have, other then in a supportive role for your fellow member, the better.

[DG]

This case has already been appealed all the way up to National and a formal three member National Appeal Board.

[ascorbate]

Correction. Have your commander, or the pilot himself, escalate this up the chain. The less involvement you have, other then in a supportive role for your fellow member, the better.

The pilot involved is not one to make waves... it's not part of his personality!

At this point, I guess I'm thinking of approaching the Group A3 myself... but I also feel like I need to give some room to the applicant and the checkride pilot to see this thru to some endpoint... hopefully soon!

[DG]

Might as well turn into a "training session" and turn those lemons into lemonade. HUH?

Is that what you are doing?

In the case of a failing performance, stop the Form 5 and call it a "training session"?

[ascorbate]

This case has already been appealed all the way up to National and a formal three member National Appeal Board.

PLEASE DG... you and I are NOT talking about the same pilot/same story which I originally posted as the FIRST post in this thread on: April 17, 2009, 08:32:31 PM.

I'd like to suggest that you owe this fellow CAP pilot... in this thread... a formal apology!

[SJFedor]

Might as well turn into a "training session" and turn those lemons into lemonade. HUH?

Is that what you are doing?

In the case of a failing performance, stop the Form 5 and call it a "training session"?

If I'm not mistaken, once a checkride has commenced, it must finish. There's no stopping and calling it a training session. Once it begins, it either ends with a pass or a fail. I tell all the MP candidates I fly with this before we begin, and ask them if they're ready to begin the evaluation.

At least, that's how I give my 91's....

[SJFedor]

Correction. Have your commander, or the pilot himself, escalate this up the chain. The less involvement you have, other then in a supportive role for your fellow member, the better.

The pilot involved is not one to make waves... it's not part of his personality!

At this point, I guess I'm thinking of approaching the Group A3 myself... but I also feel like I need to give some room to the applicant and the checkride pilot to see this thru to some endpoint... hopefully soon!

That's not making waves. That's correcting a problem that may have existed for some time, and may continue to exist until something is done about it. Just like when we pre-flight aircraft, if we find something that's cause for concern, we don't just go "oh well, not flying today" and head home. We report it, because the next pilot to come out to that plane might not see what you saw, and it might end up hurting that pilot and/or crew.

[DG]

Might as well turn into a "training session" and turn those lemons into lemonade. HUH?

Is that what you are doing?

In the case of a failing performance, stop the Form 5 and call it a "training session"?

If I'm not mistaken, once a checkride has commenced, it must finish. There's no stopping and calling it a training session. Once it begins, it either ends with a pass or a fail. I tell all the MP candidates I fly with this before we begin, and ask them if they're ready to begin the evaluation.

At least, that's how I give my 91's....

Are Forms 5 and Forms 91 the same in this regard?  Or different?

And I still ask, what is heliodoc doing in this regard?

[DG]

PLEASE DG... you and I are NOT talking about the same pilot/same story which I originally posted as the FIRST post in this thread on: April 17, 2009, 08:32:31 PM.!

If that is so, different pilots / check rides, then there are 2 confusingly similar MDWG cases with the same facts as what you have posted.

[sparks]

That is correct, once a check ride begins it can be completed, failed or postponed to be completed another day (weather, airplane problems etc.). That's why it is important that both the check pilot and member getting the check ride understand when the process has begun.

[ascorbate]

If that is so, different pilots / check rides, then there are 2 confusingly similar MDWG cases with the same facts as what you have posted.

And there may well be two other MDWG cases which are completely independent of what I have presented in this thread... as this case is not even a week old yet! As noted, I am trying to solicit constructive feedback here in this forum from fellow CAP pilots (while giving the benefit of the doubt) before escalating up the food chain... as no escalation has yet taken place as far as I know!

If indeed, there are two other similar cases in MDWG... that would seem to indicate that something somewhere is not right... and that's not intended as an indictment on CAP checkride pilots. If there is a disconnect, then it needs to be remedied ASAP before cases 3, 4 and/or 5 get added to the growing heap!

[heliodoc]

Ol heliodoc

Ran it thru his CoC and also another Wing CoC on VERY short notice.

Wing DOV of heliodocs offered a few options but I was in travel mode and made a move

Travel for business that weekend as I am co owners of a building and I made it CAP trip also short my Form 5 for both G1000 and the instrument ride were done in one day

There was some consternations but the former Wing DOV was the Check Pilot was more than willing and apparently happy I showed up to fly.


I made a few other phone also that I would rather not discuss and apparently it's near dead ears in some arenas

Need more info from my perspective??...... y'all got my PM

After reading this and some folks getting in frenzy and trying to make trash when we ALL do not know all the issues....begs me to believe that...CAP's G1000 in some States is LAME for  lack of better terms.

AGAIN with all the input here , MAYBE each WIng DOV STan Eval type would like to entertain the REAL CAP FITS training program and how it to be conducted other than jut this is how I do it  There REALLY has to be plan laid out or did CAP come away from Independence, KS thinking that this  was free training to a certain few OR was there some REAL training plans and expectations laid out  for this program.

I will agree with one thing The Form 5 applicant needs to be prepared.  But I was not there at was ascorbate was talking about.  NONETHELESS a whole day?

[Crash]

Hello forum.

I have read with great interest the goings-on in regards to this pilot and his Form 5 checkride.  How do I put this gracefully?  I am well-aware of both the pilot, and the checkride instructor in this scenario.  I,too, am a pilot in this wing.  Many in this wing are familiar with both the pilot and the check-ride instructor.

Much has been eluded to or assumed about the pilot in this incident, but little has been said positively about the check-ride instructor.  I would like to clear up a few misconceptions about both.  I will attempt to do this from as much of a 3rd party, relatively disinterested party as possible - if possible...  So here goes.

First of all; the pilot.  I know the pilot rather well.  He is one of the nicest, kindest, gentlest men I know.  He is also one of the most thoroughly organized and meticulous guys I know too.  He is a former flight instructor, who no longer has the time required to "properly" instruct – as his full-time job as a director of his department of a rather large professional organization simply no longer affords him the opportunity to devote the time required to a student as he thinks would be deemed appropriate.  This gentleman not only took the appropriate time to learn in that glass 182, but then on top of that took probably close to a dozen or so  "prep" rides with a fully qualified instructor to boot, just to be as personally comfortable as possible, pending this checkride.  This is a man I would not hesitate to fly with any time, any day.  This is also a man I would not hesitate to send my wife and kids up on a flight with, any time, any day!  (And I do not say that about just anybody)  It has been mentioned that perhaps in this flight he may not have had the proper paperwork filled out, etc..  As mentioned by the good doctor here earlier in these posts, he met not once, but twice with the other pilots in his own squadron, just to go over the various tests, paperwork, preps, and other hoards of materials available to a CAP pilot getting ready for that infamous checkride.  Heck if I did not know better, I would assume he probably had them laminated too.  I also have first-hand knowledge that the checkride instructor in this event also sent him a detailed, and rather lengthy syllabus of various paperwork, syllabus', and even a detailed plan of how this pilot was to arrive, complete with a pre-determined flight plan, over-water flight, ADIZ entry procedures, etc., etc.. weeks ahead of this anticipated activity.  Being properly "prepared" was not even a question in my mind for this pilot.  I guarantee you that every "i" was dotted and every "t" crossed (and probably triple-checked at a minimum)

Enter the checkride pilot/instructor.  Kudos for a well-planned and well-written detailed plan of what to expect.  Not sure what people know about what it takes to become a checkride pilot/instructor in the CAP, let alone this Wing, but suffice it to say, the requirements are stiff and numerous, the wait list to get checked out; seemingly infinite, and we will not even go into the rote memorization of the policies and procedures and regulations that go along with the job – let alone the now added liability, FAA PLUS CAP.  All for how many more zero's on the left end of that non-existent check?  Kudos to those who have obtained this prestigious, thankless position.  One other noticeable quality of this check-instructor is that he is a walking encyclopedia of FAA and CAP regulations.  This guy eats and breathes this stuff in his sleep.  He is also rather outspoken about his beliefs and these policies and procedures (FAA and CAP alike) and is well-known throughout the Wing for his over-meticulous approach to flight instruction, and especially Form 5 checkrides!  Sort of like 'buyer beware'.  This is not one of the "good old boys" spoken about previously in this post, but one of the most knowledgeable, overtly meticulous flight instructors one will ever meet.  Lastly, this particular flight instructor is one of the most active pilots, let alone instructors in the Wing.  SAREX?  Missions?  Checkouts?  Instruction?  Checkrides?  He is a great friend to the CAP and to this Wing.

I will not go into the details of what happened on this flight, or what I perceived happened on this flight.  Needless to say, the oral went way too long, the pre-flight; although I am sure was very thorough was not instruction nor should it have been, and the lengthy flight for a "vfr-only" check ride is left to speculation.  There are two overriding thoughts here.  First, the entire checkride is geared towards "evaluating" a pilots ability to safely and competently demonstrate the ability to fly CAP aircraft to CAP standards – period.  If those standards are not strict enough for a check-pilot's personal standards, the the check-pilots needs to re-evaluate HIS personal desire to put his signature on a Form 5 and NOT cause a CAP pilot to fly to the check-pilot's personal standards.  Second, this checkride-pilot/instructor has most likely violated CAP regulations by terminating this flight without a pass/fail determination, especially because that termination was solely due to the check pilots statement that he as another scheduled "student" waiting?  <insert your own comment here>

In closing, my only other comment in this whole CAP process would be – there needs to be "a process".  It should not matter (in theory) what part of the country or what Wing I am flying in, if the CAP is going to pattern itself off its parent organization, the USAF, then standards are standards, and a Form 5 check ride should be a Form 5 check ride, whether in New York or New Mexico – all things being equal.  From standardized checklists, both inside the aircraft and out, from oral interview to actual flight, procedures all should be standardized.  This would make Form 5 prep much easier to teach and prepare for, and for the check-pilots who signature also appears on the Form 5, to know that he/she has tested to a set of CAP standards and not personal comfort or liability concerns.  Knowing that the CAP Form 5 check ride I just passed is the same one the other thousand or so pilots across the country have performed is comforting; I would know I am in good company.

In the end, this whole thing has had ripple effects across the organization and has nothing but destroyed the confidence of this pilot and killed the moral of this unit as a whole.  We have a pilot who has been unmercifully raked though an unwarranted and lengthy check ride, without a decision.  And fellow pilots / squadron members who are now beginning to wonder what they signed up for, and whether they want to be "next" in this meat-grinder!  I have heard the word "volunteer" used almost jokingly in this thread, and yes we are all "volunteers" in this thing we call CAP.  However this isn't the type of volunteering like one would at a church picnic, but far more than that:  We are "professional volunteers".  We are no different than your local volunteer fire department "volunteer" who risks his life every time the bell rings or the pager sounds at 2am for a rescue.  Our Wing A3 put it best when he compares us professional volunteer pilots to the local volunteer ambulance company.  We are not paid to perform our function every day like our full-time counterparts.  Therefore we volunteer our time and our efforts towards the goal of becoming as good as our full-time counterparts.  The goal is in the practice.  The Form 5 should be a "no-brainer" in the CAP world.  We are already FAA current and legal pilots.  Just show me you can fly this thing the way the CAP wants you to.  This is your ticket for the next year to "go out and practice" for the real thing – so that when the "real thing" arrives, and the bell goes off, you'll be ready to answer the call.  The check ride should be a means to the end and not the end of it all – as it may be in this case for many.  We need to motivate our pilots, help them in their CAP journey to become competent and practiced and proficient as Mission Pilots, Observers, Scanners, Ground Team members, or whatever role the CAP "team" needs them to fill.   Yes we need check pilots too.  Let's look at the big picture here and do the right thing.  Something has to change.  Your voice can help make that change one for the better!  We are all professionals here.  We are all one team.  I don't have a snappy closing here.  Kudos to the pilot.  Hang in there.  We're all behind you!  Kudos to the check ride pilot too.  I am sure above all, he was 'well-intentioned' in his volunteer efforts as well.  What can we all do to make this better?  I have no idea, I don't have all the answers, but I do know a change for the better can be done together.  Regardless of what has happened here, and what changes may or may not come, I am still proud to call myself one of the elite:  a member of our Civil Air Patrol.