Is this reasonable?

[ascorbate]

Let me first note that I am trying to be kind, generous and open-minded!

A fellow senior member (a former CFI) recently went for a Form 5 checkout in a glass Cessna 182 CAP airplane. He took two days off from work to complete the task... one day to prepare and the next day for the checkride... and this doesn't include the many hours spent behind the scenes with a CAP instructor pilot in the cockpit preparing nor the many hours reviewing for his Form 5 checkride with fellow senior pilots at the squadron.

His checkride day started at 9:30 AM and commenced with a 5 hour oral exam with the CAP check pilot. After this, they started the flying portion of the exam for 1.7 hours during which the check pilot remarked that he had another student waiting and wanted to terminate the flying portion of the exam "to be continued" at another time... time is now 5:45 PM same day with the senior member re-fueling the glass Cessna 182 airplane.

The senior member called me commenting that his nerves were shot... I could commisserate 110%. I thought he was a real trooper considering what he had gone thru for the day!

I won't recount every excruciating detail of the oral/flight exam but I have to say that this senior's experience left me completely uninspired. I am not currently Formed 5 in a glass Cessna 182... nor do I know why I would sign up... for such an ordeal.

I welcome the thoughts of my fellow CAP pilots/check ride pilots!

[RiverAux]

I don't know about the rest, but the check pilot cutting short the actual flight was total BS.  He needs to be called on the carpet by someone for that. 

[Flying Pig]

After putting in a whole day, and taking time off work, I would be livid if it got cut short, unless I was having training issues or it was something outside of our control.  But if I was progressing through the check ride properly, Id be having a discussion with the Check Pilot.  I would say the other student should wait, not end my full day just short of the sign off just to come back later.

[A.Member]

A 5 hour oral exam followed by at least 1.7 flying...to be continued?! 

Way unreasonable!  I've heard of this crap before and it needs to stop.  Keep in mind, these are pilots that already have a FAA ticket by an official FAA examiner prior to this CAP evaluation.  The purpose of a Form 5 checkride is just that...a checkride.  It is not lesson time or anything else.

If an evaluator cannot determine the proficiency level and competency of a pilot within a reasonable time frame (I'd offer 1.5 hour oral and 2 hour flying as a guide...give or take), then one of two things exist:  either the check pilot is completely incompetent (in which case he/she needs to go) or the pilot being tested is incompetent (in which case he/she doesn't pass).  Either way, the entire session should be able to be completed within about 4 hours.

[Pace]

Disclaimer: I am not a current CAP check pilot, and I understand that my experience is not with CAP.  However, essentially a check ride is a check ride anywhere you go (or at least it should be that way since the PTS doesn't change).

Just my two cents from doing final stage checks/end of course tests for a Part 141/142 flight school/training center for over year:

There is absolutely no reason for a F5 to take that long, even in the worst case scenario.  If you can't get a good feel for a pilot's knowledge in less than 2-3 hours on the ground (assuming you're being extremely thorough) and skills in 1.0 - 1.5, you either need to reorganize you plan of action to be more efficient, stop BSing around, stop treating it as a training lesson, don't ask every single question in every section of the oral exam guide (or don't use it at all), or stop wasting the person's time and just fail them if they clearly don't meet the standards.   It does take experience to get to a point of efficiency with check rides, so maybe this guy is a new or experienced CFI who is trying to get a handle on being an evaluator instead of an instructor.

Personally, I would be sending an email to the Wing stan/eval officer inquiring about this event.  Not pointing fingers or getting angry, simply asking questions to get the ball rolling.

[heliodoc]

OK guys

Let me tell you a little story....
Coming from one Midwestern state to another and in the same region, iI had amassed a total of 20hr in the glass.  Coming to the new Wing, I neede to do a new Form 5, my old one was overdue.  Called one instructor who was sent to Independence, KS for his "free" training as CAP Check Pilot...guys doesn't return phone calls, schedule a couple of flights in June 2008.  Got a couple of hours in, thought I was doing pretty good to gets a Form 5 signed off after 1.7.  Schedule ANOTHER 4 hours in July 2008 and had to travel 70 miles away TWICE 4.8 hrs later....NO Form 5

Schedule another bunch of time in the G1000 in Aug 2008 for ANOTHER approximately 4 hours...... NO Form 5!!!!

Now I get mad ..and then cool down ...call the former Wing I was in and contacted BOTH former Wing CC and DO in Oct 2008.  Drove the 500 miles to get the Form 5 done and got the Form 5 and an Instrument check ALL IN THE SAME day.

Can't tell you why this is happenin'  Is this the NEW CAP jump thru hoops program?

Maybe those certain CAP Check Pilots need a little addresssing on how to stop wasting members time... MAYbe the State Directors need to check.

There a lot of problems with the G1000 program and I AM SORRY that it is happeNing in other Wings.  Soem needs to sit down with these "Gods of CAP Aviation" and really ask the hard question WHY.  I know a number of FBO's out there that can check the general public in G1000 sysytems and NOT waste people's time.

There needs to to be a HEAVY FITS and 1AF compliance check on this program and its CFI's.

The airplane is not difficult to fly  and now I know thru this that are other Wings with people wasting other peoples time

Feel free to PM me.....  I may not be making friends here if some of the lurkers are  reading this.....But you know who you are when it comes to wasting precious time, money and resource by not finishing people .....maybe those CFI's need a DELAYED check ride and get run around the countryside themselves for a little while

[es_g0d]

When the G1000 / Nav III cockpit first came online the initial push was to train all instrument pilots to a level of instrument competency in the airplane from the get-go.  This necessitated all the ground school, videos, FITS syllabi, mandatory time in the airplane, and finally the Form 5.

Ugh.  We're asking volunteers to pass what is nearly an airline line check, with airline equipment.  This is an attainable goal, but not right out of the box.  And its not appropriate for us to expect EVERY member who's checking out in the G1000 to attain this level.  Its not even necessary.

My opinion (really?  aren't you hoping I'll share it with you?) is that the near-prohibition against "VFR-only" checkrides was probably not the right way to go.  I think we should check out (instrument) pilots as VFR-only until they're comfortable with the operation of the avionics, and eventually enough osmosis will occur that those pilots will be READY to sit down for a course on IFR operations.  After all, its still just a 182.

AFTER ALL, ITS STILL JUST A 182.  And, surprisingly, it hand-flies JUST LIKE a 182 (insert C-206 or your other G1000 equipped airplane here).

We don't know the other side to the checkride story, but at first blush a 5 hour oral and a 1.7 flight ought to be enough to evaluate competency.  Considering the individual should have already been current in a 182, I honestly can't imagine what there was to talk about for 5 hours.  I'm curious to hear the other side, as I said.

Heliodoc, I saw a marvelous list of rules for managing an organization of volunteers.  The first cardinal sin was to Never Ever Waste a Volunteer's Time.  On behalf of the entire organization, please accept my apology.  I don't have a solution for you, but if you have to go through that much difficulty to even get to a G1000 equipped airplane, is it really even worth it?  That's rhetorical, however ... I hope you're able to finish up with a minimum of difficulty.

[Gunner C]

WIWA Gp/CC I had one of the best check pilots in CAP.  He was a 5-figure hour airline pilot, CFII, etc.  I went along on several check rides with him in the back seat and watched what he did.  He gave a VERY thorough interview and check ride that didn't take anywhere NEAR 6 or 7 hours. His critique at the end was great - going over slightly rough points and recommending further training. There's thorough and then there's overboard. This was, at face value, way overboard.

[NIN]

I've seen similar but not matching things happen over the years, but the intent there was not to get a really good pilot behind the yoke of a plane, but rather to "scare off" or exclude some pilots from flying certain pieces of equipment, and not even because they were bad or marginal pilots, but because they weren't in the with the rest of the "cool kids."

When I moved to my wing, we had 2 C-172s, a T-41 and 2 C-182s.  The 182s were treated by certain members of what could loosely be termed "the flying club" part of the wing as their own personal aircraft, and you had to get a whole bunch of "mother may I's" lined up to get a check ride. 

Then we got a 172SP (the 1999 equivalent of the G-1000 invasion: the "new hot toy"), and all kinds of checkride shenanigans broke out.  It got to the point where to be checked out to fly all five planes we had in the wing, you had to take 4 checkrides: A 172 checkride, a T-41 checkride, an SP checkride and then a 182 checkride. It was *ridiculous*. (I could *almost* buy the needing a separate checkout for the SP, but give me a break: apart from it being a heavier plane & fuel-injected, it was a @#$%^ 172 for crying out loud!)  So that SP sat at the airport with the other planes that were "hoarded" by the "flying club" and you had to basically kiss some major butt and ingratiate yourself with these people to get to fly it.  For a brief time, I don't think they wanted anybody to fly CO flights in the plane, and the joke was that they were afraid that the cadets might mess up the leather seats...

Heliodoc, your experience is not uncommon from what I understand: Calls to the check pilot go unanswered.  Why?  Because that would mean letting some guy who isn't in "the club" at one of the chosen few's airplanes.  They'd rather ignore you and waste your time than play as a member of the larger team. (can you imagine this kind of thing going on in the AF?  "Oh, I'm sorry, Captain, but this is Major Bagodonut's plane, and he's really not happy with others, especially you company grade officers, flying it.  Some LT took it one day due to an MX swap, and, well, he sort of had an accident during high-G maneuvering and the Major was not pleased. Took several weeks to get rid of the smell from his steed here.. You can take the hangar queen over there, however.")

I worked with a gent who was a pilot and eventually joined my CAP squadron.  We worked alongside the runway at the airport where the "flying club" part of the wing kept the "cool kid's planes," about 30 miles from where our squadron was based.  My friend had some flexibility at work (as did I.. I took advantage of a lot of lunch-hour skydiving during those years...) and worked his butt off to schedule a Form 5 with one of the check pilots based out of the airport next to us.  He could literally fly pretty much any time he needed to, nearly on a moment's notice.  Took 3 months of phone calls just to get a checkout in the 172M. 

We got a G-1000 a couple years back.  Other than SAREXs, I haven't seen it around the wing, and while I bet its been to some of the other flying units, those have been very short stints.  The DO at the squadron I'm in is a multi-thousand hour corporate pilot. Guy's flown Dorniers, Otters, Citations, Falcons, etc, etc, etc...  He's got a TON of time in MFD-equipped and full-up glass airplanes.  He's a CFI, too.  So when they were saying at commander's call "We'll get some others checked out in our new glass 182.." I approached the DOV and said "I'd like to get my guy checked out in the glass plane.." and he spent the next 5 minutes giving me this litany of why-nots.   

DOV: "Oh, its very complex... high-time instrument rated pilots only.."
Me: "OK, great. He's got thousands of hours and he's instrument rated.."
DOV: "Commercial? We want folks who check out in this plane to be commercial pilots.."
Me: "Yup, he's got a Commerical."
DOV: "Well, the initial checkouts will be for the checkpilots so they can check out others."
Me: "He just got his CAP check pilot signoff."
DOV: "But its a GLASS airplane. Does he have any time in glass?  We only want instructors who have experience in glass aircraft.."
Me: "Yeah, I think he's got enough time in glass airplanes. Did I mention he's an ATP and flies Citiation Tens, Falcon 2000s and a couple other kinds of very advanced corporate jets?"
DOV: "Well, the first couple courses will be very limited..."

Not uncommon, I don't think.

[sparks]

Sure, the G1000 takes more time to assimilate  but not 8 hours. The pilot took the initiative by getting the extra training required by the G1000. Many have bought the King course too, a very good primer. CAP isn't unique with instructors and check pilots imposing their own PERSONAL Standards on the unwitting applicant. If that weren't enough it sounds like this check pilot had a "revenue" student lined up that was a higher priority.

Just like cops with radar guns, many more drivers can be given tickets and examiners can fails many more applicants, but it isn't reasonable or within the intent of the task.

This pilot was hosed. The check pilot was out of line and should have the Stan/val and Ops officer review his methods.

[JGremlin]

And we wonder why CAP has a member retention problem.

[PHall]

A five hour oral exam!!! 
The oral part of my Air Force C-141 Instructor Flight Engineer Initial Qualification checkride wasn't even five hours. And we go into minute detail about aircraft systems and such too!

[heliodoc]

While my response was not to take away from ascorbate in any way shape or form.....

The attitude of some in CAP for either the C182 or RG series as someones PERSAF (Personal Air Force) aircraft and to say only a certain few can fly retractable aircraft or even G1000 acft is insane

Everyone here who has their commercial / Inst / etc and who has had their complex and high performance signoffs should not be held back by some of the "power hungry" CFI types who think they are now SUPT / UPT at some  primary base flying T6 Texan II's thinking their gonna flunk some guy

There does need to be some compliance checks on the certain few that went to Independence KS.  The Wings that are having the most troubles shouldd have a little IG trip around town and these CFI's should be asked where are the training syllabi AND screens to to do table top sim training..

I know the argument will be........go home to your own laptop or computer and "self train."  While I have not spent every evening doing this while I am studying for my FOI/ FAI.  I do KNOW with the money CAP has driveled away on the very few, there could have been many a training session by those folks who did.

I personally know the guy who was written up in AW& ST in 2005 when he was going thru the G1000 program and his question to me was  "is this still going on?'

He also is a well qualified and versed instructor in CAP and in NCR, so that beg the question...How come this is going on when I /we can go on down and PAY and FBO 200 dinero and get in done in probably 3 hours TOTAL ground and fly time??

Well, some CAPers would say...." Go ahead a do it BUT don't be running down CAP when you chose to got that route."

I'll say one thing ....... There is no real diiference in training between a CAP CFI and an FBO CFI as far as meeting PTS.  They all had to, meet the same PTS standards.  What is so special about CAP Check pilots when MANY are doing it on A5 and A7 missions when the rest of us are giving up our time as well as a CAP CFI??

Another argument I will here is...... WE CAP CFI give up our time, too.  

REALLY You are logging the time as well.  I f you do not want to provide the volunteer service of your CFI services, then head to your local FBO and make room for us guys that do want to do this for the good of CAP NOT somebody's PERSAF.  Some of these issues need to be addressed and somehow one or two people will be addressed in CAP as sour grapes types who are muckrakers

Again maybe 1AF needs to put a hammer down on ALL Stan Eval office and the ones who do not have an established FITS scenario binder need to gibve up their G1000 aircraft, lets say 6 months to a year to get a point across.

How would that sound to everyone as a possible solution:

NO FITS binder or syllabi ANYWHERE in a WING...say bye to your program for awhile for your penance...........

Anything more than a 3 hour combined check ride or NO Form 5 signatures....the CAP Check Pilot gets a 3 hour checkride himself, at his own cost.


There NEEDS to be a REAL ESTABLISHED on paper program NOT some seat of a Wings pants cobbled together for only a certain few.

[SJFedor]

Let me first note that I am trying to be kind, generous and open-minded!

A fellow senior member (a former CFI) recently went for a Form 5 checkout in a glass Cessna 182 CAP airplane. He took two days off from work to complete the task... one day to prepare and the next day for the checkride... and this doesn't include the many hours spent behind the scenes with a CAP instructor pilot in the cockpit preparing nor the many hours reviewing for his Form 5 checkride with fellow senior pilots at the squadron.

His checkride day started at 9:30 AM and commenced with a 5 hour oral exam with the CAP check pilot. After this, they started the flying portion of the exam for 1.7 hours during which the check pilot remarked that he had another student waiting and wanted to terminate the flying portion of the exam "to be continued" at another time... time is now 5:45 PM same day with the senior member re-fueling the glass Cessna 182 airplane.

The senior member called me commenting that his nerves were shot... I could commisserate 110%. I thought he was a real trooper considering what he had gone thru for the day!

I won't recount every excruciating detail of the oral/flight exam but I have to say that this senior's experience left me completely uninspired. I am not currently Formed 5 in a glass Cessna 182... nor do I know why I would sign up... for such an ordeal.

I welcome the thoughts of my fellow CAP pilots/check ride pilots!

Um...what?

That's absolutely ridiculous. Someone needs to be on the phone with the Wing AND Region DOV about that one.

It should take about 1.2-1.5 hours to go through the motions with the G1000, but I don't know why you'd have an oral exam THAT long! He musta been asking him 39-1 questions or something.

I don't like it, it smells like bovine fecal matter.

[ascorbate]

Anything more than a 3 hour combined check ride or NO Form 5 signatures....the CAP Check Pilot gets a 3 hour checkride himself, at his own cost.

Now, heliodoc's comment above, sounds reasonable!

I have remarked to some of the other senior officers in my squadron who know what transpired (above) that this is/was a glass C-182 checkride... it is not a Boeing 747 checkride, it is not a checkride to fly the President of the United States, it's not a checkride for flying into and out of Iraq nor are we flying to the outer reaches of the solar system... it's a C-182 checkride... nothing more and nothing less!

I feel strongly that if I (and maybe we as CAP pilots) remain mum about this, then we are quietly endorsing what some CAP checkride pilots are requiring of some Form 5 applicants. I believe that I would have terminated this particular Form 5 exam halfway thru the day and voiced my opinion that it's not worth it to fly a C-182 airplane CAP style... but that's me! One can only hope that events like this will bring about the change that seems to be begging to happen in this particular instance!

[Nomex Maximus]

Completely unreasonable.

I have had two CAP checkrides so far, both with very highly qualified CFIs. Both were demanding but both were completed in about 1.3 hours. And that included scaring the first CFI with one of my "landings"...

Speaking as an avionics software engineer who specializes in cockpit display and FMS software, it is rediculous to make a big deal about the glass cockpit stuff. It's just not that hard to figure out how to read off the airspeed, altitude and direction from a glass display sitting right in front of you. The whole point of a glass cockpit is that it is supposed to make things easier to do in an airplane. Yes, there should be some ground instruction in how to navigate through the menus, and then some time with a CFI to make sure you are OK in the air with it, but it ain't like flying the space shuttle...

[DG]

Anything more than a 3 hour combined check ride or NO Form 5 signatures....the CAP Check Pilot gets a 3 hour checkride himself, at his own cost.

Now, heliodoc's comment above, sounds reasonable!

I have remarked to some of the other senior officers in my squadron who know what transpired (above) that this is/was a glass C-182 checkride... it is not a Boeing 747 checkride, it is not a checkride to fly the President of the United States, it's not a checkride for flying into and out of Iraq nor are we flying to the outer reaches of the solar system... it's a C-182 checkride... nothing more and nothing less!

I feel strongly that if I (and maybe we as CAP pilots) remain mum about this, then we are quietly endorsing what some CAP checkride pilots are requiring of some Form 5 applicants. I believe that I would have terminated this particular Form 5 exam halfway thru the day and voiced my opinion that it's not worth it to fly a C-182 airplane CAP style... but that's me! One can only hope that events like this will bring about the change that seems to be begging to happen in this particular instance!

There is a LOT more to this check ride than has been presented.

But the information will be held confidential so as not to breach any right of privacy or other rights of the pilot who was evaluated.

[Flying Pig]

So the trainee sucked?

[ascorbate]

So the trainee sucked?

...the applicant is a former CFI and Form 5 pilot and is most qualified to fly C-172s and C-182s PERIOD!

There is a LOT more to this check ride than has been presented.

...undoubtedly true!
...and there might be more, but not a LOT more!

But the information is confidential to protect the pilot who was evaluated.

...fair!

I received a thorough debrief firsthand the same evening... not second hand and not based on rumors repeated over and over again by somebody else! And while I wasn't present during the checkride,  I'm not that far "off-base" from what actually happened either!

Dear DG: As noted previously, this senior's experience left me completely uninspired. I am not currently Formed 5 in a glass Cessna 182... nor do I know why I would sign up... for such an ordeal.

BTW: I think I have been kind, generous and open-minded!

[A.Member]

There is a LOT more to this check ride than has been presented.

But the information is confidential to protect the pilot who was evaluated.

B.S.!

Based on your comments, I assume you know the details but that is irrellevant.  Regardless of the details, there is nothing - and I repeat nothing - that justifies a 5 hour oral...or anything close to that.  If a candidate didn't do well on the oral it should've stopped there - he should've never gotten in the airplane for evaluation.   Period. 

Then to finally make it into the airplane and fly for nearly 2 hours without being able to make a determination of his capabilites?!  B.S.  That is on the check pilot. 

See previous comments, which are words to live by:  Don't waste people's time!