definition of cross country

[Gunner C]

60-1 does (or at least did) require the 50 hours of XC time to be Pilot-In-Command time for TMP and MP

With all due respect, this doesn't answer my question at all. I am aware of the fact that CAP requires 50 hours XC time. My question is what counts as XC time?

If you're going for a pvt, com or IR the FAA regs require a landing greater than 50nm from the point of departure in order to count XC time. If you're going for an ATP, the FAA requires a flight that goes 50nm from the point of depature, but does not require a landing greater than 50nm away. If you're going for part 135 IFR PIC minimums, the FAA requires a landing at a point other than the point of departure with no minimum distance specified. So my question is which of these definitions does CAP require in order to meet the 50 hours of XC requirement.

until we can get to a firmer solutiuon, I would use the toughest standard of a XC.  50 miles or more, with a landing.

Does that have to be a full stop landing?

[CadetProgramGuy]

60-1 does (or at least did) require the 50 hours of XC time to be Pilot-In-Command time for TMP and MP

With all due respect, this doesn't answer my question at all. I am aware of the fact that CAP requires 50 hours XC time. My question is what counts as XC time?

If you're going for a pvt, com or IR the FAA regs require a landing greater than 50nm from the point of departure in order to count XC time. If you're going for an ATP, the FAA requires a flight that goes 50nm from the point of depature, but does not require a landing greater than 50nm away. If you're going for part 135 IFR PIC minimums, the FAA requires a landing at a point other than the point of departure with no minimum distance specified. So my question is which of these definitions does CAP require in order to meet the 50 hours of XC requirement.

until we can get to a firmer solutiuon, I would use the toughest standard of a XC.  50 miles or more, with a landing.

Does that have to be a full stop landing?

The flight school I attended made them all be full stop Landings (and refuel).  I believe you can do a touch and go and still be safe.

[flyguy06]

The reason a person may want to log all trips is if you are planningon flying part 135 charter. you need to meet part 135 minimums which include 300 hours of cross country. SO in order to build that time it is best to log every trip. It counts towards the cross country time for pt 135 ops

Actually, I believe the pt 135 mins require 500 xc. But you are correct in that any flight which includes a landing away from the departure airport counts toward the XC requirement for the part 135 IFR minimums.

You're correct. it is 500 hours cross country. My mistake

[sparks]

The FAR provides all the information an aviator needs about cross-country flight time if you dig a little. Depending on the assumptions used, CAPR 60-1 provides hints of what's needed.  IMHO the same definition for cross-country time should be imposed on CAP pilots when interpreting 60-2 requirements.

FAR Part 61
        Private

5 hours of solo cross-country time. One solo cross-country flight of at least 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations.

        Commercial
50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes. One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;   One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure.
         Airline Transport
500 hours of cross-country flight time.
At the beginning of part 61 at definitions of terms.;
(3) Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under §61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

[CASH172]

The FAR provides all the information an aviator needs about cross-country flight time if you dig a little. Depending on the assumptions used, CAPR 60-1 provides hints of what’s needed.  IMHO the same definition for cross-country time should be imposed on CAP pilots when interpreting 60-2 requirements.

Which definition of XC are you referring to exactly? 

Also, something to note.  I'm already a Private Pilot with an Instrument Rating and am almost a Commercial Pilot.  When thinking of Part 61 requirements, many would consider a pilot at that level more than able to count his/her extensive XC time for CAP.  In reality, I don't have anything close to 50 hrs XC when considered for the requirements of an additional rating or certificate.  However, if I use the defintion of XC for a landing at a different airport, no problem there.  Now do I truly have the XC experience that the CAP rule makers thought I would? 

[sparks]

Unfortunatelly the text seperations compressed when the message was posted. Part 61 "definitions" are near the beginning of the regulation. The one for the term "Cross-Country" is as follows;

(3) Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—
(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under §61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

[JGremlin]

Which definition of XC are you referring to exactly? 

Also, something to note.  I'm already a Private Pilot with an Instrument Rating and am almost a Commercial Pilot.  When thinking of Part 61 requirements, many would consider a pilot at that level more than able to count his/her extensive XC time for CAP.  In reality, I don't have anything close to 50 hrs XC when considered for the requirements of an additional rating or certificate.  However, if I use the defintion of XC for a landing at a different airport, no problem there.  Now do I truly have the XC experience that the CAP rule makers thought I would? 

Could you clarify that? If you have an IR and you obtained it via a part 61 flight school which is not located on a remote island, then you are required to have at least 50 hour of xc flight time and each of those flights must include a landing at an airport greater than 50nm from the point of departure. And that definition of XC time is arguably the most conservative definition there is. If you've got an IR and you lack 50 hours of XC time, there's something more to the story that you're not telling.

[CASH172]

Sorry, I should have noted I trained under Part 142.  142 waives the 50 hours of XC time altogether for an IR.  The only XC requirements are 2 XCs, with one being the same 250 nm, 3 stop XC. 

[DG]

Sorry, I should have noted I trained under Part 142.  142 waives the 50 hours of XC time altogether for an IR. 

I never did understand how sitting in a classroom, even an approved curriculum classroom, can substitute for 50 hours of cross country time in an airplane.

[CASH172]

My Part 142 training was also heavily FTD and simulator based.  I realize that there's still a lot of real-world experience lacking from this method of training.  Nothing can replace that real-world experience, not even those FAA-approved classes.  Also, the fact a pilot with just 90 flight hours and 50 FTD hours getting a Commercial license is scary at times.  Rumor has it that the FAA is going to remove Part 142 certificates from most non-airline training type operations. 

[Pace]

[Way off topic]
I had the unfortunate pleasure of dealing with the FAA's Part 142 "experts" a few months ago.  One of the guys helped write Part 142 back when it was a new concept and has had an integral part in refining it throughout the years.  Basically, what came out of those meetings was that Part 142 was originally never designed for primary flight training and was supposed to be reserved for ATP and type ratings for those individuals who were already instrument rated commercial pilots.

He even hinted at the fact that the FAA may be trying to remove the provisions under part 61 that allow Part 142 style training (certified Flight Training Devices - Level 6 only and certified Flight Simulators - all levels).

Quite honestly, Part 142 is too burdensome for most flight training schools.  It requires all CFIs to maintain a second class medical (instead of a third or none at all depending on the situation as defined under Part 61 and authorized under Part 141), requires more initial training than that required by even Part 141 (written test, flight checkout, 8 hours of initial and annual training, demonstrate annually to a TCE personal proficiency in segments of the curriculums that the instructor is authorized to teach, and several more that can be found in 14 CFR 142.53 if you really want to know more), requires at a minimum 1 fully functional Level 6 FTD or FS, and most likely numerous other stipulations and requirements that I am forgetting.

If at any point there is not at least one L6 FTD or FS that has no discrepancies, the Part 142 training certificate privileges are supposed to be voluntarily suspended until such a time as at least one L6 FTD or FS is fully operational with absolutely no discrepancies.  This is not explicitly stated in Part 142; however, it is one of the conditions for issuance of a Part 142 certificate.  If at any time a certificate holder does not meet the requirements of the certificate, it must be suspended immediately.  For any school that operates under Part 142 with only one L6 FTD or FS, it is likely that the program is routinely not in compliance with 14 CFR 142.  For larger schools where multiple FTD/FSs are available, this is most likely not an issue.

As for Part 142 training requirements (aeronautical knowledge and aeronautical experience), these are supposed to be streamlined with Part 61 since the reduced time requirement is listed with each affected certificate and rating in Part 61.  However, the FAA has the ability to grant an exception to both the content of the training specifications and the minimum hours required.  So what you will find is that generally no two Part 142 programs will look alike.

My personal feelings toward Part 142 as a CFI are that it is a waste of money.  No FTD/FS can substitute for the real world.  While the simulated environment can be quite helpful in making instrument approaches more efficient and simulate more emergencies than in the aircraft, it is still necessary to put the person in a real aircraft and make sure they can perform under pressure where hitting the freeze button it not an option.
[/Back on topic]

XC TIME:
Since CAP does not define what XC time is expected nor reference a specific FAA definition, then it is widely left to interpretation.  I have two thoughts on this issue.  First, it would seem more logical to require a transport pilot to have a certain amount of transport experience.  Generally, one will not have extensive navigation experience within a confined area.  I think, however, without more clear guidance as to the intent of the 50 XC hours (flight time to another nearby airport versus long distance navigation), that it is fair to assume my second thought which is that the basic FAA definition of a cross-country as it pertains to CAP's non-flight training ES operations applies (landing at an airport other than the departure airport).  The FAA clearly stipulates that a landing at an airport greater than 50 nm from the departure airport is only required when it is being used to meet a specific item listed in the aeronautical experience requirements under Private, Instrument, and Commercial.  Even while training for one of these, if you want to claim XC time to an airport 2 miles away, you can so long as you do not claim it as cross country on your 8710/IACRA application or try to use it to demonstrate to an examiner during a practical test that you meet specific XC aeronautical experience requirements.  Other than an application for a PVT, INS, or COM or a practical test for PVT, INS, or COM, you may legally log and claim to any organization or company all the XC you want each time to land at an airport other than the one you departed from, unless that specific entity stipulates what it constitutes as XC time for its own purposes.

[airdale]

the fact a pilot with just 90 flight hours and 50 FTD hours getting a Commercial license is scary at times

Just at times?   I never heard of that one before.  Maybe no more scary than an IA rating without ever having flown in a cloud?

Maybe the next step is "FAA-erios" breakfast cereal with a rating in every box!  Or some kind of a cereal name that includes the word "crunch" might be more appropriate.

[flyguy06]

the fact a pilot with just 90 flight hours and 50 FTD hours getting a Commercial license is scary at times

Just at times?   I never heard of that one before.  Maybe no more scary than an IA rating without ever having flown in a cloud?

Maybe the next step is "FAA-erios" breakfast cereal with a rating in every box!  Or some kind of a cereal name that includes the word "crunch" might be more appropriate.

I read about a guy that went to take a checkride for his CFII. The examiner asked him how much actual time he had. The applicant had never been in IMC in his life. The examiner refused to test him. How can I guy be a CFI and have never flown in IMC conditions?

[es_g0d]

I think that examiner is right as a matter of pride and common sense, but...

He was wrong per the FAA & examiner's handbook, and if that's indeed what happened, is putting his/her designation at risk.

Beware the 250 hour CFI.  There are some good ones, but caveat emptor.

[DG]

Does anyone know if the pilots in the Colgan Air accident in Buffalo were rated under Part 141 or Part 142?

[sparks]

Anyone taking flight training in the sunny Southwest may never see IMC during training. IMC experience is an experience all instrument rated pilots should be exposed to before a checkride but it isn't required. The examiner may have had other reasons for refusing to give the checkride. I've never heard of an examiner refusing to give a checkride due to no IMC experience. You could extend that logic to pilots who got all their experience in simulators but the FAA thinks that's OK.

[JGremlin]

How can I guy be a CFI and have never flown in IMC conditions?

Happens all the time. Many pilot mills forbid students from flying in IMC. I had a buddy who went to one of the big Florida pilot mills. I was talking to him on the phone one day and I ask how his training was going along. Not good he said. He was in a phase of training where he was supposed to be doing multi engine IFR cross country flights. But he hadn't flown in two weeks. I asked why. He said it partly mx and scheduling but mostly weather. They wouldn't allow him to launch on the XC flights unless he had a forecast for good VMC the entire day.

He had an instrument rating by this point and these flights were to be conducted on IFR flight plans but the school wouldn't allow you to launch unless you had good VMC for the entire day because they forbid students from flying in IMC. Kind of says a lot about what the school thinks of the quality of the training they're giving. We'll teach you to fly in IMC, but we won't trust you to do it in our planes. 

[DG]

How can I guy be a CFI and have never flown in IMC conditions?

Happens all the time. Many pilot mills forbid students from flying in IMC. I had a buddy who went to one of the big Florida pilot mills. I was talking to him on the phone one day and I ask how his training was going along. Not good he said. He was in a phase of training where he was supposed to be doing multi engine IFR cross country flights. But he hadn't flown in two weeks. I asked why. He said it partly mx and scheduling but mostly weather. They wouldn't allow him to launch on the XC flights unless he had a forecast for good VMC the entire day.

He had an instrument rating by this point and these flights were to be conducted on IFR flight plans but the school wouldn't allow you to launch unless you had good VMC for the entire day because they forbid students from flying in IMC. Kind of says a lot about what the school thinks of the quality of the training they're giving. We'll teach you to fly in IMC, but we won't trust you to do it in our planes. 

I can't understand, if you are flying IFR, why you would want to avoid IMC. 

Perhaps to avoid icing, or embedded thunderstorms and no weather depiction on board.

We always welcome IMC while training IFR.

The last training flight I gave in the G1000, we went IMC at 300 ft. AGL and didn't come out until landing full stop at the point of origin.  After 3 approaches at 2 intermediate airports.

When I was trained up for G1000 out at Independece, KS, we flew 90% of the training in IMC.  Didn't even notice.

[JGremlin]

I can't understand, if you are flying IFR, why you would want to avoid IMC. 

Why would you the student want to avoid IMC? You wouldn't. Why would you the CFII want to avoid IMC? You wouldn't. Why would you the school owner and policy maker want your students and instructors to avoid IMC? You wouldn't. Unless you knew that your instructors were training your students only to pass checkrides rather than preparing them to be safe and competant pilots who are capable of handling a plane in IMC without incident.

[DG]

I can't understand, if you are flying IFR, why you would want to avoid IMC. 

Why would you the student want to avoid IMC? You wouldn't. Why would you the CFII want to avoid IMC? You wouldn't. Why would you the school owner and policy maker want your students and instructors to avoid IMC? You wouldn't. Unless you knew that your instructors were training your students only to pass checkrides rather than preparing them to be safe and competant pilots who are capable of handling a plane in IMC without incident.

Does anyone know if the pilots in the Colgan Air accident in Buffalo were trained and rated in one of these schools?