Attention, all "less than perfect" pilots

[D242]

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/ControllersAsAirspacePolice_198538-1.html

From the article:

The FAA has apparently ordered controllers to violate pilots for any and all errors and has threatened to discipline them if they don't file the reports...

...the FAA is now disciplining controllers for not 'policing' pilot actions as they relate to flight regulations...

I'm married to an air traffic controller, so it should come as no surprise that my opinion of this is that it's but the latest move in the FAA's chess game against the controller's union--pitting pilots and controllers against each other.

My question is this--how do you as pilots feel about being played as pawns in that chess game?

[Eclipse]

Why shouldn't pilots be disciplined for mistakes?

If ATC doesn't do it, who will?

[RiverAux]

How does ATC know who is piloting any particular plane at any particular time so as to report them?  If all they know is the plane identification, are they expected to conduct some sort of investigation to figure out exactly who was flying it at the time of the violation? 

[lordmonar]

As a military member who's pay and benifts are totally at the mercy of pentagon/beltway politics.....I hate the chess game that the ATC Union plays with the safety and economics of our country.

As for reporting violations....if we want to make our airways safer we have to hold pilots accountable.

[D242]

Why shouldn't pilots be disciplined for mistakes?

If ATC doesn't do it, who will?

I don't think there's any question that the guy who took off from a taxiway, as happened recently at my wife's workplace, needs to have his knuckles rapped.

The AvWeb article doesn't go into great detail, but in the blogosphere, and discussion within the ATC community, the understanding is that, as a pilot, ATC should deviate you for missing taxiway India, and using Juliette, if that's how your taxi instructions read, or for flying a 260 heading when you were issued 250, etc. If they fail to do so, they can get suspened for 30 days the first time, and fired the next.

How "perfect" are you?

How does ATC know who is piloting any particular plane at any particular time so as to report them?  If all they know is the plane identification, are they expected to conduct some sort of investigation to figure out exactly who was flying it at the time of the violation?

As I understand it, they would at the very least log that Capflight 1234 did such and such a thing wrong at this time and place, and let the FSDO find you. It's their failure to report your most inadvertant mistake that gets them into trouble. How does that make you feel about your next sortie?

More reading on the subject:

http://gettheflick.blogspot.com/2008/08/n12345-youre-busted.html

http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2008/08/license-and-reg.html

I hatte the chess game that the ATC Union plays with the safety and economics of our country.

Please, expound on that statement...

[Eclipse]

How does ATC know who is piloting any particular plane at any particular time so as to report them?  If all they know is the plane identification, are they expected to conduct some sort of investigation to figure out exactly who was flying it at the time of the violation? 

I think this would fall into the same bucket as traffic cameras that make assumptions about the driver of a vehicle based on ownership, even when a photo is not clear.

Frankly its "guilty until proven innocent", but has been withheld upheld by most courts.

[D242]

Frankly its "guilty until proven innocent", but has been withheld by most courts.

I'm almost positive you mean it's been "upheld" by the courts.

[Eclipse]

Frankly its "guilty until proven innocent", but has been withheld by most courts.

I'm almost positive you mean it's been "upheld" by the courts.

heh...

[Major Carrales]

Seems like the extra level of vigilance might improve and augment our safety protocols.

Still, the idea of this being a "politically" motivated occurance definately makes it a bit unpalatable.

[Trung Si Ma]

Who determines if I land long or short of my intended touch down spot?

Does this mean that I get violated when Joe home owner (who built his house next to a pilot controlled airport) reports to the nearest tower that I was flying "too low"?

[♠SARKID♠]

My squadron just co-hosted a flight clinic yesterday and this was one of the topics covered.  It isn't necessarily a punishment system, but a tighter record of errors.  ATC has actually supposed to have been doing this all along, but they've been lax and just given a quick "by the way, you did this wrong no big deal" on the side.  Now they have to log all events.  Its nothing new, the higher ups are just cracking down on the rules.

How does ATC know who is piloting any particular plane at any particular time so as to report them?  If all they know is the plane identification, are they expected to conduct some sort of investigation to figure out exactly who was flying it at the time of the violation?

ATC gives the pilot a phone number to call (for an "airport quality control" type division) and the pilot is to call in as soon as he can and discuss what happened.  ATC still files a report and they already have the tail number so they can look up the pilot.  And if its not the owner who's flying, the owner had darn well better know who is.

[flyguy06]

How does ATC know who is piloting any particular plane at any particular time so as to report them?  If all they know is the plane identification, are they expected to conduct some sort of investigation to figure out exactly who was flying it at the time of the violation? 

The aircraft N number is how they know who it is. Its very easy to look upthe owners name. You can do it onthe web. And thats who will get the violation.

[flyguy06]

Yes, of course pilots should be violatedif they comit a serious offense. Buttthe author is talking about little things like not calling before taxxing at a airport with five aircraft on it or missing a call from ATC.

[Eclipse]

Which will continue to be rationalized as "trivial" until there's an incursion or accident, then its a different story.

Everyone dead-heads "small" things on occasion, that's why we have auto insurance, but with an airplane the stakes are generally always higher and the tolerance for mistakes much smaller.

[stratoflyer]

How many of you who responded to this question are actually pilots? Just wondering...

As a pilot, who often flies in very busy airspace complete with 3 international airports, 4 training airports, 1 military base, a few coast guard bases, and tons of varied air traffic ranging from heavy Boeings to graceful gliders, I can say this: controllers are my friends in the air. I respect them and when I do things right, they go the extra mile to accommodate me. And when I foul up, they simply provide corrective instructions and send me on my way with a bruised ego.

When flying VFR, most pilots hate talking to controllers. Where I fly, even though I takeoff directly beneath Class B airspace, I can do a whole day's worth of flying and never talk to a controller. Now is that very safe with all the traffic we get down here? Not to mention the pop-up showers and t-storms that suddenly make things more interesting.

Case in point: On a recent cross country flight, I called for VFR flight following and the controller stayed with me and routed me around heavy storms even as he was busy with heavy airliners.

If pilots become afraid of being thrown violations by reports from controllers, than they will opt out of communicating with controllers. Never mind that their information could be found or worse, they could be intercepted.

To me, taxing without calling ground or taking off a taxiway is a serious offense--because it reflects an attitude problem and could result in serious accidents. Controllers have always had the ability to enforce the FAR's and report violations. And don't forget about the NASA reporting form that gives defacto immunization from punishment, unless it was a huge offense.

Look, bottom line is how likely are you to bust the law if you are on top of your game? Keep track of the airplane's position and altitude at all times and watch out for logbook things like currency. Ramp check anyone? I know career pilots who have made mistakes but nothing to cause regulatory enforcement actions.

Someone once told me that if you are going to make a mistake, make sure it's an unoriginal mistake. So long as your mistakes are not original, then they should keep you out of original heaps of trouble.

[D242]

Does this mean that I get violated when Joe home owner (who built his house next to a pilot controlled airport) reports to the nearest tower that I was flying "too low"?

No. But if ATC gives you an altitude to maintain, and you bust that altitude, you could get a pilot deviaition. If you come up on the wrong frequency, you could get a deviation. Etc., etc., etc...

My wife asserts that if everything were enforced to the letter of the law, it would take about three days for the system to choke on the paperwork, but 75% of the active pilots would be violated for something. (Maybe that's an exaggeration, and to be fair, she also admits that it could go the other way. In those same three days, we'd be out of controllers too, cause they don't do everything to the letter either. Does saying "nine" instead of "niner" once in a few days time make an unsafe controller? To the letter of the law, that controller could be disciplined.)

It's like this--I don't think anyone would argue that a driver going 90 mph through a school zone should get off without getting a ticket, but everybody knows that there's one cop in their town that would give his own mother a ticket for going 37 mph in a 35 mph zone, at three in the morning when there's not another car on the road. Do you respect that cop as a reasonable person? Do you believe that cop is a good public servant? The FAA wants every controller to be that cop. Or at least they want the controllers to be in fear that if they refuse to be that cop, they might lose their job.

I can say this: controllers are my friends in the air. I respect them and when I do things right, they go the extra mile to accommodate me. And when I foul up, they simply provide corrective instructions and send me on my way with a bruised ego.

Exactly. Now, how do you think it's going to work when it's a case of your ticket vs the controller's ticket?

And It's the FAA that's putting you both in an adversarial relationship.

BTW, lord monar, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on your statement, "I hate the chess game that the ATC Union plays with the safety and economics of our country." Please support that allegation with some facts, or retract it.

[Trung Si Ma]

Stratoflyer - good points and I agree that more pilots will refrain from using the system if they think that some over zealous controller is looking to bank some points for their next bad day.

Personally, I use flight following on every flight out of the pattern.  Then again, I live in an area with lots of Army helicopters and a plethora of T-38's and T-6's.  See and be seen is nice - particularly if you add ATC's "eyes" to your scan pattern.

D242 - How does new policy affect non-FAA controllers?  The controllers that I deal with mostly are either contract (KLAW), GS (KFSI and KSPS), or military (RAIDER at KFDR).

[flynd94]

Its funny that the FAA has gone this route, when we fly in a system that still uses 1960's, 70's era technology.  I fly a FMS (GPS) equipped aircraft but, I am forced to fly VOR to VOR/ intersection to intersection.  This wastes my time and lots of Jet A.  One would think that they could spend their time actually improving the system.  All you hear about is airline delays.  Its mainly due to the outdated Airspace Mgmt System we use.

Today, after having had a 14 hour duty day and, having flown 5.4 hours (with another 2.3 to go) I screwed up a read back to KCLT ground.  How was it handled, they noticed we turned the wrong way, asked us where we were going, read back the clearance again, they noticed the mistake, amended out taxi instructions, we thanked them and, went on our merry way back KIAH.  Now, I have to worry about being violated, nice job FAA.  I am now home filling out both a NASA Form and an ASAP to cover my butt.

Let's work together and, not against each other.  Does, the opposite work, when a controller makes an error, do we get to report them?

[D242]

All you hear about is airline delays.  Its mainly due to the outdated Airspace Mgmt System we use.

It's off topic for this thread, but if you talk to any controller, they'll explain that delays aren't caused by management of airspace, but by the fact that the runways are unable to handle the traffic volume.

D242 - How does new policy affect non-FAA controllers?  The controllers that I deal with mostly are either contract (KLAW), GS (KFSI and KSPS), or military (RAIDER at KFDR).

My wife is an FAA controller, of the Tower/TRACON variety, so I really have no knowlege of how it would affect non-FAA towers. Given the state of affairs between the FAA and NATCA though, my guess is that this is only something that's being pushed at FAA facilities.

If you understand that what the FAA is about is busting the controller's union, then you'll understand the tactical advantage this policy offers them. Here's an interesting three part essay on the subject, from the "FAA Follies":

http://www.faafollies.com/?p=476
http://www.faafollies.com/?p=477
http://www.faafollies.com/?p=478

(It's my personal opinion that anyone involved in aviation should be reading the Follies everyday anyway. It's a real eye opener.)

Apparently, the AVweb article may have overstated the case somewhat. I'm told, that at least at my wife's facility there has been no official communication from above directing the manager to enforce the policy as stated in the article. (Reportedly, he looked visibly relieved, knowing the amount of additional paperwork he'd have to deal with, if in fact he were to have to enforce such a policy.) While it may not be a directive system wide, there does seem to be evidence that this policy is being used by management at certain facilities as yet another tool in their arsenal in showing the workforce who's boss.

I respect the credibility of AVweb, and there's certainly no indication in that article that the FAA spokesperson denied that stricter enforcement is being required of the controllers.

Now, I have to worry about being violated, nice job FAA.  I am now home filling out both a NASA Form and an ASAP to cover my butt.

But you'd have done that anyway, right? It's only prudent.

I didn't mention it here, but it's very near the top of Don Brown's article that I linked earlier:

Concealment of an operational error or deviation.     

First Offense: 30-day suspension to removal.       

Second Offense: Removal

The bold is mine. I did that to emphasize the meanng there. On the very first time they fail to bust you, a controller could lose his/her job.

I titled this thread "Attention, all "less than perfect" pilots" for a reason. Uness you are perfect you're now working under the implied threat of being violated for your most inadvertant mistake. You're being played by the FAA, just as your counterparts in the towers and radar rooms are. I don't make my living in aviation, but if I did, I'd be furious...

[Jolt]

I've been working on my PPL for some time now and I've had solo endorsements come and go for a little over a year, but I still only have something like 2.6 hours PIC.  The reasons I choose not to fly solo are 1) I think I'll forget how to fly and crash on a landing, 2) I'll get lost (again!), or 3) I'll inadvertently do something really stupid and get in a lot of trouble.

Reading this thread has just scared me out of flying solo for a while.