Pre-solo wings

[Grumpy]

Can anybody tell me who the authorizing authority is for awarding a cadet his solo wings for glider?  I've been able to find the requirements, I just don't know how far up the chain the 2a goes.

Thanks

[lordmonar]

No one.

35-6 says see 60-1.

60-1 does not mention pre-solo at all.

So by the letter of the law.........you can't wear them.

However......

Pre-solo wings are awarded at the National/Regional/Wing Flight academy based on their "ready to fly solo" "but not actually flying it" rule.

As far as I know....you can only get them at a recognised flight academy.......it is not like the Solo wings....there all you need is a CAP Instructor Pilot to endorse your log book that you have completed a Solo and are cleared to Solo in CAP aircraft.

[mdickinson]

The title of the OP is "Pre-solo wings," but in his post he asks about solo wings. Not sure which you meant to ask about.

Pre-solo wings is an award that was created at the time that national decided to disallow solo flight during a cadet's first glider academy. They changed the rules so that flight instructors cannot let a cadet solo during his/her first attendance at a flight academy (though nothing prevents the cadet from going home from an academy and soloing locally).

They created the "pre-solo wings" award by adding it to 35-6 (and to 60-1 as well, though it was removed during a subsequent revision) but AFAIK they never actually produced a corresponding award in either metal or cloth, so even though it might be awarded on a CAPF 2a, it has never actually been worn by anyone. [edit: found out from a subsequent post that the metal wings DO exist.]

If you meant to ask about solo wings for soloing in a glider: those are the same V-shaped "solo wings" (available in metal and cloth) that are awarded to CAP members who solo a powered aircraft.

Note that the requirements for solo wings changed a couple years ago. Solo wings used to be awarded to any CAP member (cadet OR senior!) who had soloed an aircraft (airplane, balloon, glider, helicopter). For some reason the regs were changed to not require a solo flight at all - the new requirement just requires the person to be "Qualified to solo CAP aircraft"!

In thinking over the ramifications of that change, I guess it means that
(a) there's no need for pre-solo wings any more, since it's just being signed off for solo that is the requirement for solo wings.
(b) the only seniors who can earn solo wings nowadays are those who are signed off for solo in a CAP glider (since senior members can't get qualified to solo in a CAP airplanes).

Here's hoping that the powers that be get 60-1 and 35-6 straightened out so that they agree with each other. It kinda bugs me when one regulation is revised in such a way that it leaves a hanging pointer in another regulation... 

[Flying Pig]

I think solo wings should be a cadet only award.  Personal opinion.  Get rid of pre-solo.  As long as a cadet has solo'd ANY glider or airplane, they should rate solo wings.  Who cares if a CAP CFI signs them off.  Its just a recognition of an achievement and some bling.  I hate to break it to anyone but Solo wings mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.  A lot simpler.

[Grumpy]

I think solo wings should be a cadet only award.  Personal opinion.  Get rid of pre-solo.  As long as a cadet has soloed ANY glider or airplane, they should rate solo wings.  Who cares if a CAP CFI signs them off.  Its just a recognition of an achievement and some bling.  I hate to break it to anyone but Solo wings mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.  A lot simpler.

I agree whole heartily.  What I'm looking at is to award this cadet with the "V" shaped wings.  I wanted him to be able to wear them legally so I was going to cut a 2a and needed the appropriate authority to sign off on it.

[mdickinson]

Grumpy: so which is it, solo wings or pre-solo wings?

Has the cadet in question flown solo?

If it was in a glider, has he had thirty flights and been endorsed for solo flight? See CAPR 60-1, paragraph 3-7.a., sections (1) and (2).

In answer to your second question, the form 2a gets submitted to the wing level.

[Grumpy]

Sorry to confuse you.  He soloed in a glider.  I've got all his documentation and such but reading through the regs I couldn't find which level it would go to.  I thought it would just go as high as Group.

Thanks for the help.

[DBlair]

I think solo wings should be a cadet only award.  Personal opinion.  Get rid of pre-solo.  As long as a cadet has solo'd ANY glider or airplane, they should rate solo wings.  Who cares if a CAP CFI signs them off.  Its just a recognition of an achievement and some bling.  I hate to break it to anyone but Solo wings mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.  A lot simpler.

Agreed.

[ßτε]

As with all aeronautical ratings, requests are submitted and approved in OpsQual section of eServices. Select the CAP Ratings link in the Pilot section. See CAPR 35-6 para. 5.

[SarDragon]

Now that I think about it, there is no longer any place on the CAPF 2a to request aeronautical ratings. It's all done online.

eServices; My Operations Qualifications; Pilot, CAP Ratings

Upload your document(s), click the proper button, click Submit.

It gets reviewed and forwarded until it gets to the final approving authority.

[Eclipse]

They created the "pre-solo wings" award by adding it to 35-6 (and to 60-1 as well, though it was removed during a subsequent revision) but AFAIK they never actually produced a corresponding award in either metal or cloth, so even though it might be awarded on a CAPF 2a, it has never actually been worn by anyone.

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7006


I have cadets and seniors in my AOR that wear these. 

[DakRadz]

The Hock had them in both versions as well, previously. I remember looking them up with envy.

[mdickinson]

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7006

I have cadets and seniors in my AOR that wear these.

I'm squinting at the screen but can't make out how these "pre-solo wings" are different from regular solo wings.  Some tiny difference?

[mdickinson]

Noticed this official guidance today on the National HQ Stan-Eval page at http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/emergency_services/stan__eval__flight_ops/
in an undated, unattributed one-page PDF called "Pre-Solo Pilot rating - information."

The entire text of the document follows:


The CAP "Pre-Solo Pilot" is a RATING, and not a qualification, and is not directly
referenced in 60-1.

To be eligible for the pre-solo wings the following requirements must be met:

CAP Cadet Pre-solo Rating: The following basic requirements must be met to be
qualified as a CAP cadet Pre-Solo Pilot. This qualification may only be earned at an
organized wing or higher level flight encampment / academy.

1. Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age
14 or older).

2. Have received the required instruction from a CAP Instructor Pilot (CFI/CFIG), at
a wing level or higher flight encampment / academy and have a written record
documenting instruction of all items of FAR 61.87 in the appropriate aircraft.

3. Complete a pre-solo qualification flight. Pre-solo qualification flight: A flight
performed at a CAP wing level or higher flight encampment/academy during
which the CAP student pilot demonstrates, to an onboard CAP Instructor Pilot
(CFI/CFIG), that the student pilot has the ability to fly the aircraft without
assistance from the on board CAP CFI. This flight does not require an FAA
endorsement and does not fulfill FAA requirements for solo flight; however the
prerequisite for a pre-solo qualification is completion of all requirements in the
appropriate portion of FAR 61.87.

[ßτε]

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7006

I have cadets and seniors in my AOR that wear these.

I'm squinting at the screen but can't make out how these "pre-solo wings" are different from regular solo wings.  Some tiny difference?

The solo badge has a tri-prop in the center triangle. The pre-solo badge does not.

[Critical AOA]

Pre-solo wings?  Isn't that sort of like the participation trophies they hand out nowadays to kids?  How about giving them wings once they have actually flown solo or better yet after they earn a rating?  I know we want to provide encouragement but isn't this a little too over the top? 

[Thrashed]

Agreed. Dump the "I rode in an airplane" wings. It cheapens the award to those who actually solo. An endorsed medical/student certificate IS an actual FAA pilot certificate. Those who solo anything anywhere deserve to wear the solo wings. No solo - no wings. We have a few cadets wearing wings (presolo and solo look the same at a distance) and only one has actually soloed. I understand that cadets who spend $1000+ for flight camps want something for their money. I also understand the instructors reluctance to solo someone. It's a huge liability. It is taking many cadets two camps to solo. You can do better and cheaper than that at the local FBO.

What's next? Orientaion wings for completing all 5 powered flights?

Solo airplane/glider = solo wings (cadets only)
Get private certificate and form 5 = CAP pilot wings

Anyway, that's my opinion. 

[Eclipse]

What's next? Orientaion wings for completing all 5 powered flights?

Actually, a ribbon that denotes flying all 10 might spark some interest in the program.

[Thrashed]

What's next? Orientaion wings for completing all 5 powered flights?

Actually, a ribbon that denotes flying all 10 might spark some interest in the program.

Not a bad idea, but some units have no chance of getting any glider time and lucky if they get powered flights. We just offered 6 flights next week and only 2 cadets out of 35 signed up. I don't get it. I was always the kid looking up at airplanes and hanging on the airport fence. I even offered free flight training for those who pass the written: free instruction and aircraft! Not one cadet was interested. 

[Critical AOA]

I could see a ribbon for completing the O-flight program but wings should be reserved for certificated pilots.

[jeders]

I could see a ribbon for completing the O-flight program but wings should be reserved for certificated pilots.

I guess I should turn in my observer wings now. 

[im_not_a_sir]

Why doesn't the FAA recognize pre solo wings as legitimate achievements of flying?

[ßτε]

Why doesn't the FAA recognize pre solo wings as legitimate achievements of flying?

You do realize that the FAA doesn't recognize any CAP wings, including Command Pilot, right?

[Flying Pig]

Why doesn't the FAA recognize pre solo wings as legitimate achievements of flying?

#1 the FAA has nothing to do CAP aviation achievements. #2, Per-Solo wings ......yeah.... hardly a "legitimate achievment of flying".... in my book.  Its a feel good.

[Critical AOA]

Why doesn't the FAA recognize pre solo wings as legitimate achievements of flying?

How does being pre-solo demonstrate any achievement of flying, especially a legitimate one?  Everyone who has never soloed is pre-solo.

Pass your FAA written exam and checkride and then the FAA will recognize your achievement and it will be legitimate.  Of course, they won't give you any nice shiny silver wings to pin on your chest, just a piece of plastic to stick in your wallet.  But it will be an actual achievement nonetheless.

[nesagsar]

I earned pre-solo at the Johnson Flight Encampment in 2004. I piloted the aircraft (a Schweizer 233-a) from tow hookup to landing with no input and no conversation with the backseater. I did not get solo for two reasons.

1. The CFI was in the aircraft. Not much I could do about that.
2. There was a rule that cadets must wait until their second flight encampment to solo the aircraft, even if they are ready the first time. I always suspected that this was a way to make more money off of activity fees.

[Flying Pig]

I earned pre-solo at the Johnson Flight Encampment in 2004. I piloted the aircraft (a Schweizer 233-a) from tow hookup to landing with no input and no conversation with the backseater. I did not get solo for two reasons.

1. The CFI was in the aircraft. Not much I could do about that.
2. There was a rule that cadets must wait until their second flight encampment to solo the aircraft, even if they are ready the first time. I always suspected that this was a way to make more money off of activity fees.

Thats too bad.....  it really is.  But nothing can replace the added stress of knowing that no matter what happens, its all you and nobody can help you.  Have you solo'd since?  Flying with a rated pilot, regardless of their inputs or not, cannot replace the feeling of being "solo".  Its marketing...a way to get a cadet more bling.  We need a book with wings coming out of it for those who have taken and graduated a ground school too.

[Critical AOA]

...  We need a book with wings coming out of it for those who have taken and graduated a ground school too.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Don't even say or write such things, someone will take you serious. 

lol

Though I bet some blingmeisters would think they deserve them.

[Al Sayre]

...  We need a book with wings coming out of it for those who have taken and graduated a ground school too.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Don't even say or write such things, someone will take you serious. 

lol

Though I bet some blingmeisters would think they deserve them.

+1!  I still remember taxi-ing back after my 3rd landing and realizing "Holy $%&#! I could have killed myself!"  Then realizing I hadn't and all was good...

[nesagsar]

I earned pre-solo at the Johnson Flight Encampment in 2004. I piloted the aircraft (a Schweizer 233-a) from tow hookup to landing with no input and no conversation with the backseater. I did not get solo for two reasons.

1. The CFI was in the aircraft. Not much I could do about that.
2. There was a rule that cadets must wait until their second flight encampment to solo the aircraft, even if they are ready the first time. I always suspected that this was a way to make more money off of activity fees.

Thats too bad.....  it really is.  But nothing can replace the added stress of knowing that no matter what happens, its all you and nobody can help you.  Have you solo'd since?  Flying with a rated pilot, regardless of their inputs or not, cannot replace the feeling of being "solo".  Its marketing...a way to get a cadet more bling.  We need a book with wings coming out of it for those who have taken and graduated a ground school too.

I never did solo. The activity cost well over $1000 to attend and I had school to worry about as well. There was no way I could attend a second time.