Flying cadets in non-orientation (C-17) flights?

[Crash]

Hello team.  Had a cadet approach me recently about being able to fly in CAP aircraft on non-orientation flights.  This was an interesting question, so I contacted some local pilots for their opinion.  The responses were varied - and generated some interesting responses, although very little in the way of documentation to prove their point.

So I thought I would ask my fellow com padres here your thoughts on this.  Let's start with some assumptions:  Private Pilot, is over 18 years of age, senior officer, 200+ hours PIC, Instrument rated, and Cadet Orientation Pilot.

So my question is, for a non-orientation flight (say C-17) can a cadet ride along:

* On any flight?
* On a Day VFR flight?
* On a Night VFR flight?
* On any IFR flight?

Other than actual missions, are there times when a cadet is actually prohibited to fly?  Rumor has it that a cadet cannot fly at night, period.  However I do not see anything in the CAPR 60-1 that specifically prohibits that action.

On your responses, please include any current CAP regulations or Policies in support of your response.

This should be fun.  And hey, this is a serious question, so please do respond.

[Al Sayre]

I see nothing that would prohibit any of the activities you list in any regulation, however your wing supplement may have additional restrictions that I did not check.  I would not generally recommend taking a cadet that was unrelated to me on IFR in IMC unless they were a "frequent flyer" simply because of the fear factor, or if you plan to do any stalls or other increased risk procedures.  Other than that, I see no issue provided you have the parents permission.

[Eclipse]

There are no regulatory CPT issues, either.

[EMT-83]

60-1 is very specific about flying cadets. I would say, unless otherwise prohibited, you're good to go.

[PHall]

Flying non-crewmembers on training flights isn't unheard of, but it's rarely done because of all of the hassles of having "passengers" aboard the aircraft.
Mainly, somebody has to manifest them, watch them and ensure their safety during the entire flight.
And there are some training events that can not be performed while passengers are aboard. (i.e. Co-Pilot touch and go landings.)
And then there's the "fun" of getting your State Director to actually make the request and do the needed coordination. Good luck with that.

Phil Hall, Retired C-141C Flight Engineer

[davidsinn]

Flying non-crewmembers on training flights isn't unheard of, but it's rarely done because of all of the hassles of having "passengers" aboard the aircraft.
Mainly, somebody has to manifest them, watch them and ensure their safety during the entire flight.
And there are some training events that can not be performed while passengers are aboard. (i.e. Co-Pilot touch and go landings.)
And then there's the "fun" of getting your State Director to actually make the request and do the needed coordination. Good luck with that.

Phil Hall, Retired C-141C Flight Engineer

I don't think he means C-17 Globemaster III but means a C-17(corporate, self funded proficiency I think) mission profile.

[Eclipse]

And then there's the "fun" of getting your State Director to actually make the request and do the needed coordination. Good luck with that.

What coordination?  Why would the SD need to be involved?

I read this as self-funded proficiency hours where the pilot wants to take a cadet.   Anything that involves actual training under a mission number (monthly or other) that the SD cares about would likely bar the cadet from participating from the get go.

SD's aren't involved for hamburger runs...

[FW]

^unless the SD is going...

[davidsinn]

If he's already an o-ride pilot why not do an o-ride profile under a B mission? Can that be done?

[Thrashed]

The O flight syllabus prohibits passengers in the back seat during the flight with stalls (#8 or powered #3).  One may read that to mean not having passengers in the back seat on other flights with stalls (training) too.?  This would only apply to those flights planning stall training, I see no other restriction.

[Al Sayre]

If he's already an o-ride pilot why not do an o-ride profile under a B mission? Can that be done?

Yes, it can be done, but I think the issue is more about taking a cadet on a $100 burger (C-17) run.

[davidsinn]

If he's already an o-ride pilot why not do an o-ride profile under a B mission? Can that be done?

Yes, it can be done, but I think the issue is more about taking a cadet on a $100 burger (C-17) run.

Just do a profile outbound and then one inbound. Then you have two o-rides done and it makes a lot of people look good. Same basic effect but better appearance.

That doesn't answer the OP's question though.

[jeders]

Assuming that, for a C-17 mission, everyone is a current member and wearing a uniform, then the only prohibition I can find is this:

Aircraft will not carry CAP or AFROTC/AFJROTC cadets on board during the first 10 tach hours following an engine change, major overhaul, or replacement of cylinders/magnetos.

Now this doesn't include any region or wing supplements that you may be subject to, but national doesn't seem to have a prohibition on it.

Edit to add:
After looking through national's approved supplements of 60-1, I cannot find any supplement that would prohibit a cadet flying on a C-17 mission as a passenger, assuming the pilot is a SM.

[SJFedor]

To my knowledge, there's no problem with it. And WIWAC and just starting to get into flying, i frequently jumped at the chance to tag along on flights, be it maintenance flights, aircraft repositioning, or whatever else.

[ol'fido]

I lived about a mile from the airport WIWAC. The pilots claimed that I could hear the 0-1 turn over from that distance because once they were done with their warmup and ready to taxi, they would see me coming over the bridge on foot or bike to go along for the ride.

[Eclipse]

I lived about a mile from the airport WIWAC. The pilots claimed that I could hear the 0-1 turn over from that distance because once they were done with their warmup and ready to taxi, they would see me coming over the bridge on foot or bike to go along for the ride.

Who flew you more?  Orville or Wilber?

[Майор Хаткевич]

I lived about a mile from the airport WIWAC. The pilots claimed that I could hear the 0-1 turn over from that distance because once they were done with their warmup and ready to taxi, they would see me coming over the bridge on foot or bike to go along for the ride.

Who flew you more?  Orville or Wilber?

I got my droid x wet...I'll be sending the bill to your inbox soon sir.

[ol'fido]

I lived about a mile from the airport WIWAC. The pilots claimed that I could hear the 0-1 turn over from that distance because once they were done with their warmup and ready to taxi, they would see me coming over the bridge on foot or bike to go along for the ride.

Who flew you more?  Orville or Wilber?

Which one had the moustache?

[Crash]

Hey gang, this is great stuff!  Sorry for the long delay in replying to these numerous posts. 

These are great comments.  Biggest concerns I heard of back here at home have been more along the lines of liability having cadets on board.  Trying to avoid the Cadet Orientation route, because then it's now a training flight, and cadets are only allowed .7 to 1.2 hours of flight time.  Then we would also have to follow a certain syllabus, etc..  Takes the fun out of a C-17 / $100 hamburger ride.  I have non-pilot seniors at my squadron signing up for these rides left and right.  Only issue I have really seen is flying a single cadet on a non-orientation ride is a no-no due to Cadet protection policies, so in that case, an orientation flight would be a must.

I have heard a few requests like tagging along on the $100 hamburger run, to flying out to the CAP glider park, to just wanting to fly to some of the air museums located at various airports.  Good stuff here. 

Here's one last question, regulatory-style.  Let's say next week an aircraft needs to be flown out to our centralized maintenance facility to pick up the pilot that just dropped off the aircraft scheduled for it's annual.  Single cadet wants to tag along (and in my opinion - should).  An Mx mission is an A9 mission and has a mission number.  In that case, a cadet IS authorized to fly in that aircraft because it has an air force mission number associated with it, right?  Thoughts?

[jeders]

Only issue I have really seen is flying a single cadet on a non-orientation ride is a no-no due to Cadet protection policies, so in that case, an orientation flight would be a must.

Says who, airplanes and chaplains are the bright line exception to the no one-on-one rule.

In that case, a cadet IS authorized to fly in that aircraft because it has an air force mission number associated with it, right?  Thoughts?

C-17 or A-9, the same rules apply, which means yes, cadets can go.

[jimmydeanno]

Says who, airplanes and chaplains are the bright line exception to the no one-on-one rule.

THERE IS NO "ONE-ON-ONE RULE"

Seniors can be alone with cadets.  You only need 1 senior with CPPT completed at any single day activity.  If it's overnight, you need two.

[SJFedor]

Hey gang, this is great stuff!  Sorry for the long delay in replying to these numerous posts. 

These are great comments.  Biggest concerns I heard of back here at home have been more along the lines of liability having cadets on board.  Trying to avoid the Cadet Orientation route, because then it's now a training flight, and cadets are only allowed .7 to 1.2 hours of flight time.  Then we would also have to follow a certain syllabus, etc..  Takes the fun out of a C-17 / $100 hamburger ride.  I have non-pilot seniors at my squadron signing up for these rides left and right.  Only issue I have really seen is flying a single cadet on a non-orientation ride is a no-no due to Cadet protection policies, so in that case, an orientation flight would be a must.

I have heard a few requests like tagging along on the $100 hamburger run, to flying out to the CAP glider park, to just wanting to fly to some of the air museums located at various airports.  Good stuff here. 

Here's one last question, regulatory-style.  Let's say next week an aircraft needs to be flown out to our centralized maintenance facility to pick up the pilot that just dropped off the aircraft scheduled for it's annual.  Single cadet wants to tag along (and in my opinion - should).  An Mx mission is an A9 mission and has a mission number.  In that case, a cadet IS authorized to fly in that aircraft because it has an air force mission number associated with it, right?  Thoughts?

When I did flight training as a cadet, it wasn't as an orientation flight and CPPT wasn't a problem. Read the CPPT regulation again. People tend to make up rules that aren't really written. Of course, good judgement is always used.

Because it's an AFAM for that Mx flight, there might be some nuiances involved. Originally, I was thinking there's the "to/from base only" rule for cadets on AFAMs, but then I remembered "Oh yeah, O-rides are done on an AFAM" so I'd rely on the guidance of your FRO, unit commander and operations officer on that one. WIWAC, all the Mx flights were C-9's, so there was never a problem of me jumping on board and tagging along. In fact, those mx flights were how I really got my start in flying, not so much the o-rides.

There's no reason a cadet can't fly on any C-mission unless there's specific crew requirements. The only requirement to be a passenger on a CAP aircraft, barring any specific quals (MO, MS, AP, CD, etc) is found in CAPR 60-1, para 2-3, which a CAP cadet meets.

[Eclipse]

Says who, airplanes and chaplains are the bright line exception to the no one-on-one rule.

THERE IS NO "ONE-ON-ONE RULE"

Seniors can be alone with cadets.  You only need 1 senior with CPPT completed at any single day activity.  If it's overnight, you need two.

No matter how loud we keep saying it, people choose to believe you can't be 1-on-1 with a cadet.

[Patterson]

^ Agreed, but do you really want to be??  Unless it is your kid, do you really know what he or she might accuse you of?!?!  Parents these days are shady as well...........

[Crash]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

[jeders]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

Here you go.

Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

So while jimmydeanno is technically right that there is no "one-on-one" rule, there is such a thing as being careful and protecting yourself. However, my point in bringing it up was that flying is explicitly exempt from the recommendation.

[Crash]

Ah, but once again we are talking about "orientation flights" versus say proficiency (C-17) flying.  Completely different animal.  Does the CAPR 52-10 or 60-1 specifically allow or prohibit a single cadet from flying with a single pilot (orientation or otherwise) on a non-orientation flight?  This seems to be the sticky point.  That's why I am looking for a hard reg or policy that specifically states either.

The other wording I am concerned about is "cadet activity".  Is a cadet in uniform flying in a CAP aircraft considered a "cadet activity"?  Is any activity, mission or otherwise, automatically considered cadet activity?  Is CPPT exempt in any aircraft flight, or only orientation flights?  What about other AF authorized mission activity like an Mx flight?  Lots of comments here, but I haven't seen anything hard or regulatory yet.  Any other thoughts?

[jeders]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

[jimmydeanno]

Is CPPT exempt in any aircraft flight, or only orientation flights?  What about other AF authorized mission activity like an Mx flight?  Lots of comments here, but I haven't seen anything hard or regulatory yet.  Any other thoughts?

The CPPT is never exempt. 

If you are conducting your flight and the cadet goes home the same day, you don't need two seniors.  Should you decide to hunker down overnight, you'll need another senior.

The 52-10 is the authority on your supervisory commitments.

[Eclipse]

There is(are) no "gray area", "sticky situation", or "different circumstances".

The text is clear.

One (1) senior member, with no regard to gender is required for any CAP activity.

Two (2) senior members with no regard to gender are required for any overnight activities.

You can make all the arguments you want about ORM, CYA, or "common sense", but do not confuse those with regulatory requirements.

[jimmydeanno]

There is(are) no "gray area", "sticky situation", or "different circumstances".

The text is clear.

One (1) senior member, with no regard to gender is required for any CAP activity.

Two (2) senior members with no regard to gender are required for any overnight activities.

You can make all the arguments you want about ORM, CYA, or "common sense", but do not confuse those with regulatory requirements.

Just to clarify, the 52-10 covers that under commander responsibilities in section 4.d.  The 52-16 is clarifying that requirement.

[Crash]

Thanks All!

jimmydeanno, I am unable to find your referenced 52-16

Mind sending me a link on that?  Much appreciated!

Eclipse, wow, forgot all about those basic standards.  Thanks!!!

[jimmydeanno]

CAPR 52-16 is the Cadet Program Management Regulation: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/capr_5216_C8EDC47E7F572.pdf

a. Proper Supervision. Unit commanders will take all reasonable measures necessary to protect cadets from harm while under CAP supervision. Senior members will be present at all activities involving cadets. For CAP guidelines on the Cadet Protection Policy, see CAPR 52-10, Cadet Protection Policy, and CAPP 50-3, CAP Cadet Protection Training Instructor's Guide and Student Materials.

CAPR 52-10 is the Cadet Protection Program Regulation: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R052_010_C5B73B2B78712.pdf

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

CAPP 50-3 is the Cadet Protection Student Guide: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P050_003.pdf

Unit commanders will take all reasonable measures necessary to protect cadets from harm while under CAP supervision. Adult members will be present at all activities involving cadets.
All cadet activities must be supervised properly. Commanders must exercise care in selecting adult members and older cadets to conduct and supervise cadet activities.
Generally, this means that a minimum of two senior members will be present when appropriate and feasible. Two senior members must be present at any overnight cadet activity. This requirement also protects our members from false allegations of abuse.

[Eclipse]

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

My guess would be that this is where the wive's tale about Chaplain's or O-Pilots being the only seniors allowed 1-on-1 with cadets comes from.

[peter rabbit]

CAPR 60-1 para 2-3d - make sure the pilot is qualified to fly cadets:

Only pilots that are qualified as CAP Instructors, Cadet/AFROTC/AFJROTC Orientation Pilots, or SAR/DR or Transport Mission Pilots (during Supervised Missions) may carry CAP cadets as passengers or crew members.

[Patterson]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots. 

[SJFedor]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots.

Why?

[SarDragon]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

Here you go.

Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

So while jimmydeanno is technically right that there is no "one-on-one" rule, there is such a thing as being careful and protecting yourself. However, my point in bringing it up was that flying is explicitly exempt from the recommendation.

If you copied and pasted directly from the reg, you've got an olde version.

The current text, emphasis mine:

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

[ßτε]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

Here you go.

Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

So while jimmydeanno is technically right that there is no "one-on-one" rule, there is such a thing as being careful and protecting yourself. However, my point in bringing it up was that flying is explicitly exempt from the recommendation.

If you copied and pasted directly from the reg, you've got an olde version.

The current text, emphasis mine:

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

The quote is the same as yours except it doesn't have the first sentence. Perhaps it wasn't included because the first sentence is not relevant to the discussion since we are not talking about overnight activities.

[cap235629]

ensure and encourage are two different words

[jeders]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

Here you go.

Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

So while jimmydeanno is technically right that there is no "one-on-one" rule, there is such a thing as being careful and protecting yourself. However, my point in bringing it up was that flying is explicitly exempt from the recommendation.

If you copied and pasted directly from the reg, you've got an olde version.

The current text, emphasis mine:

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

Mine is the current text, like bte said, I dropped the first sentence because it wasn't relevant to the discussion. Probably should have put an ellipses to avoid confusion, meh.

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots. 

If you go read CAPR 60-1, you will see that that is not so. Remember, all that the A, B, and C mean are who pays for it and what insurance coverage we use. It doesn't restrict cadets from being passengers.

[ßτε]

ensure and encourage are two different words

Yes, they are. And they are both used in the regulation.

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

[Eclipse]

Yep.

Ensure = "will"

Encourage = "should"

Should is optional.

[SarDragon]

OK, I see what's going on. The quote I questioned is missing the first sentence of my cite. Now that we have conclusively established that, let's get back to the basic discussion. There is no longer any need to debate ensure vs. encourage.

[SJFedor]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots. 

If you go read CAPR 60-1, you will see that that is not so. Remember, all that the A, B, and C mean are who pays for it and what insurance coverage we use. It doesn't restrict cadets from being passengers.
[/quote]

And not only that, but if we were forbidden to take Cadets up on A-missions, we've broken that rule every time we do a cadet orientation flight (A-15)

[ol'fido]

Again this is the early '80s I'm talking about here. In 84 or early '85, I was a c/LtCol and flew as an observer on a mission. I was 19 or 20 at the time. The aircraft was a Illinois Dept of Transportation helicopter with a IDOT pilot and the co-pilot was the USAF 0-6 that commanded the GLLR at that time. Not a CAP senior in sight. Oh, and I wasn't observer qualified either.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots. 

If you go read CAPR 60-1, you will see that that is not so. Remember, all that the A, B, and C mean are who pays for it and what insurance coverage we use. It doesn't restrict cadets from being passengers.

And not only that, but if we were forbidden to take Cadets up on A-missions, we've broken that rule every time we do a cadet orientation flight (A-15)
[/quote]

Steve,

Note this paragraph in CAPR 60-3, para 1-10e. dated 17 Aug 2009:

e. Use of qualified CAP cadets is encouraged as much as possible on appropriate missions. Cadets should be trained in the various functions of mission operations and support as permitted. Cadets qualify no differently than adult members in emergency services qualifications, and can be properly utilized in age-appropriate scenarios. Additional guidance for employing cadets on missions can be found on the NHQ CAP/DOS website.

And on the NHQ CAP/DOS Website: Cadets in Emergency Services at http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/cadets_in_emergency_services.cfm, that restricts cadets under the age of 18 from "emergency services operations":

Only cadets 18 years of age and older, who hold a valid CAPF 101,
Specialty Qualification Card are authorized to fly on aircraft involved in the
performance of emergency services operations. Any cadet may be flown
directly to and from a mission base when needed to perform mission
duties, provided the pilot-in-command is at least a qualified mission
transport pilot.

So what is the definition of "emergency services operations"?

[bosshawk]

Why don't you ask the National DOS: they are the ones that coined the term?

[Eclipse]

So what is the definition of "emergency services operations"?

Mission tasking or training.  AFAM or otherwise.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Why don't you ask the National DOS: they are the ones that coined the term?

Good idea Paul!

Your Question has been Submitted
The reference number for your question is 'XXX'.

You should receive a response by email from our support department within the next business day.

If you need to add information to or cancel your question, you can do so by updating it through the questions sub area of the 'My Stuff' section of this site.

[bosshawk]

I will hold my breath awaiting the reply.  Then, I will exhale.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

And the quick reply is:

Response (KB Manager) - 10/12/2010 11:29 AM
Emergency services operations are conducted under several mission symbols, not just one.  What we're talking about in general is SAR, Disaster Relief, and some Homeland Security Operations, as well as associated training, on both Corporate or AFAMs.  The missions symbols that could possibly be used for this as of 12 October 2010 are:  A1, A2, A5, A18, A99, B5, B8, B10, B11, B13, B14, B18, B21, B99, C14, C18, C21, C99, C911.  That said, this is not blanket approval for cadets to be flown on any flight under those mission symbols.  There has to be a need for that cadet, and it is only for too and from the mission bases, not for traditional sortie activities like reconnaissance.  If there is a question, as to appropriateness or not, we suggest you call the NOC at 888-211-1812 ext. 300 when
the need arises if it is not clear.

[bosshawk]

After turning purple, I just exhaled.