Cadet Conference Attendance Does Not Count Towards Level III

Started by Майор Хаткевич, August 15, 2013, 03:55:38 AM

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Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 15, 2013, 07:00:04 PM
No one has mandated any cadet attendance here. They are discussing that if any cadet attends, then it should transfer when the cadet becomes a senior.

Flyer

Quote from: MSG Mac on August 15, 2013, 06:46:17 PM
Simple fix: Amend The STR to add a space for Conference attendance. And 52-16 to require attendance at 1 conference prior to the Mitchell, and another for the Eaker award. Transferable upon achieving SM status.

It was tacked on at the end.

Eclipse

The conferences are another hold-over from another era, and just as the trade show industry has shrunk significantly over the
last decade, Wing and even national conferences should probably also fade into history.

The internet has negated the need for "all-hands" seminars, and rarely is anything announced or presented "news".  If you're
sitting in a hotel banquet room and learn of something "exciting" that is news to you, you're either woefully disconnected or the
information is still wet because a decision was just made.  Anything else will just be a rehash.

The content for cadets is generally a time-wasting afterthought, which is why cadet participation generally needs to be at no cost. 
At the conferences I have attended, cadets were basically extra staff help and then had a 1/2-empty CAC meeting,
along with a commander's round table or similar.  I've got 14 years in and about 4-6 conferences and have yet to see
a cadet conference activity that was worth the bother, though frankly the senior ones are just as bad.  Nothing more fun then
teaching a uniform class to a roomful of field-grade officers.   BTDT.

In this case, however, and were I Comrade USAFAUX2004's commander, this conversation would not be closed.  Wings have been
selling these conferences to cadets for years under the guise that they count towards senior PD, at least they certainly have in my wing.
Further, the only reason the issue came up in the first place was because the wing in question has a history of not tracking
participants, so it was only when substantiation was requested that the question of whether the conference credit applied to
cadets was even asked, I guarantee you that if his name had already been on the roster, or he had a certificate in hand, this would
not have been an issue.

And the "answer" was an opinion of NHQ staffers who do not have the authority to make those decisions,
nor are they in the chain of command.  I don't understand why these questions are not forwarded to national volunteer staff and
commanders, as they are the only ones who actually have a say in the matter, but worse, the published verbiage clearly contradicts with this opinion.

If nothing else, NHQ needs to publish clear guidance on this and add a sentence that says cadet participation either does, or doesn't
count towards senior PD, and if it doesn't, then drop the ruse cadets should be involved and save everyone  a lot of time.

In regards to a mandated conference before Mitchell, that won't fly because it would be objected to on the grounds of it
becoming another gateway to Mitchell, however if that was put in place, then the credit should not transfer to senior PD, since
it would already have been used for cadet PD.  No double dipping allowed.


"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on August 15, 2013, 07:41:09 PM
In this case, however, and were I Comrade USAFAUX2004's commander, this conversation would not be closed. 

My CoC is aware of the situation, down to the OP email. Then again, from my very limited experience dealing with higher HQ above Group, this may be an exercise in Head-Meet-Wall Maneuvers.

a2capt

As for how is it tracked, generally a PA is put out that says "these people attended/participated/shot the manure..   or you get a certificate in the folder that you typically pick up at the beginning.. You then provide the chain with a copy of that whatever when filling out that form for Level III. Unless your Wing is the same as the conference and keeps all those PA's, so that a conference date provided on the form can be cross referenced.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on August 15, 2013, 07:41:09 PM
I don't understand why these questions are not forwarded to national volunteer staff and
commanders, as they are the only ones who actually have a say in the matter, but worse, the published verbiage clearly contradicts with this opinion.

There's always the "Ask the Commander" Button.  >:D

Would be a change from the ABU questions.  :angel:

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 08:29:45 PM
As for how is it tracked, generally a PA is put out that says "these people attended/participated/shot the manure..   or you get a certificate in the folder that you typically pick up at the beginning.. You then provide the chain with a copy of that whatever when filling out that form for Level III. Unless your Wing is the same as the conference and keeps all those PA's, so that a conference date provided on the form can be cross referenced.

PA compiled in 2012 for a 2006 conference. My name wasn't on the list.

Eclipse

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 08:29:45 PM
As for how is it tracked, generally a PA is put out that says "these people attended/participated/shot the manure..   or you get a certificate in the folder that you typically pick up at the beginning.. You then provide the chain with a copy of that whatever when filling out that form for Level III. Unless your Wing is the same as the conference and keeps all those PA's, so that a conference date provided on the form can be cross referenced.

14 years, 5-6 conferences, including staff, never got one that I remember.  I had similar issues with my own substantiation with people insisting I wasn't there...until I produced a photo.

That was actually fun.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Maybe when I make it to the next one, I'll be rocking a GoPro helmet cam.

a2capt

..and you registered, paid, and went in 2006? Like anyone else? That's just wrong.

CAWG has cadets listed on the PA. I've seen others, too.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 08:47:31 PM
..and you registered, paid, and went in 2006? Like anyone else? That's just wrong.

CAWG has cadets listed on the PA. I've seen others, too.

I did. Some Captain at my unit said it would be fun (liar!) And would count for SM PD down the road (heh). This all came up when I was looking for an old cadet buddy. Google brought up the list. He was listed, I wasnt.

RiverAux

The bigger issue is the apparent assumption that attendance at two conferences provides some sort of beneficial experience or training that has some relevance to the PD of a senior member.  That seems pretty questionable to me due to the lack of standards that lordmonar mentions. 

At least in my wing, the purpose of the wing conference seems to be to hand out awards and to find somebody to fill the other time with something that might be useful. 

I think the wing conference requirement should be dropped in favor of participation in and preferably passing some sort of test associated with some number of workshops (4 hour?  8 hour?) that do have specific training objectives.  These could be workshops with some sort of fixed content that doesn't change much year-to-year (some sort of leadership workshop, for example) or could be something that does tend to change (annual aircrew or ground team or comm or whatever workshops). 

Since this is part of the PD program, I'd lean towards making these workshops more PD than ES-related. 

Spaceman3750

Conferences are useful for connecting or reconnecting with members that I rarely see in person. It's pretty much the only reason I care, besides needing one more for Level 3.

ol'fido

As I've said in other threads, I think this was mandated in the days before e-mail, cell phones, the Internet(Al Gore hadn't got around to it), and when there was a lot less attendance at activities outside of the unit. Requiring  conference then was needed to make sure that members saw someone and learned something about the organization outside of their squadron or group.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

SarDragon

Quote from: MSG Mac on August 15, 2013, 06:46:17 PM

3. Since attendance is required, how do we track it? It's not carried on the STR, and I've never received any form of verification of attendance nor has anyone I know. Usually I take the member's word.

There's a place for them on CAPF 45. CAWG issues certificates or PAs to document attendance. I happened to go to my first two with my CC, so he personally did the F45 entries.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Phil Hirons, Jr.

My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Yea, but your whole Wing is smaller than my Group.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 16, 2013, 02:29:57 PM
Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Yea, but your whole Wing is smaller than my Group.

"If we weren't a state, we'd be a group."

Always thought we should add that to the Wing patch.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 16, 2013, 02:29:57 PM
Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Yea, but your whole Wing is smaller than my Group.

"If we weren't a state, we'd be a group."

Always thought we should add that to the Wing patch.

>:D


It's not the size that matters, ultimately.  >:D

Майор Хаткевич

Well,

The issue was brought up at Nat.Boards, and apparently the reg is poorly written. Substitute CAP Senior Members for CAP members, and you get the read folks higher up than I want.

MSG Mac

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 16, 2013, 02:29:57 PM
Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Yea, but your whole Wing is smaller than my Group.

"If we weren't a state, we'd be a group."

Always thought we should add that to the Wing patch.

When I was in MAWG we used to refer to RI as our southernmost Group.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member