The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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lordmonar

Quote from: abdsp51 on July 03, 2014, 02:18:16 AM
And what was the recommendation?
Adopted in part.   The part reject was adopted in the most recent printing of 39-1.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 02:22:37 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on July 03, 2014, 02:18:16 AM
And what was the recommendation?
Adopted in part.   The part reject was adopted in the most recent printing of 39-1.

Which, was.......

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

I wrote a white paper making suggestion to change 39-1 to expand the wear of the Commander's badge.

At that time there was only the medal badge for blues.

I suggested and used AFI language to allow its wear on BDUs and BBDU as well as Flight suits.

I suggested the elimination of the command service ribbon and the wear of the badge below the line for alumni commanders.

The only not adopted at this time is the elimination of the Command Service ribbon
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SARDOC

Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 12:45:20 AM
That only applies to SDF Ground Component Commands (i.e. Army) and does not cover SDF Airwings or Naval militias.

Not According to National Guard Regulation 10-4

Quote from: d. Members of SDFs are not authorized to wear the uniforms of any of the armed forces of the United States
except Army uniforms as authorized and modified under AR 670-1.

It doesn't specify branch, just applies to SDF's that Interact with the National Guard.  Which I believe is Unconstitutional.

The United States Constitution, Article I, Section 10, Clause 3, prohibits any State from keeping troops without the consent of Congress.

SARDOC

Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 11:11:08 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 02, 2014, 09:30:51 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.

I find it funny...that CAP can wear Foreign Awards...but Can't wear State Awards.  Can wear Kuwaiti Liberation Medal...But not the State Medal of Valor.

sardak

I have a state award which The Adjutant General awarded to CAP members for their participation as CAP members on an AFRCC SAR, not DR, mission, which I can't wear on my CAP uniform. CAP awarded nothing for the mission.

Mike

Shuman 14

Quote from: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 03:35:02 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 12:45:20 AM
That only applies to SDF Ground Component Commands (i.e. Army) and does not cover SDF Airwings or Naval militias.

Not According to National Guard Regulation 10-4

Quote from: d. Members of SDFs are not authorized to wear the uniforms of any of the armed forces of the United States
except Army uniforms as authorized and modified under AR 670-1.

It doesn't specify branch, just applies to SDF's that Interact with the National Guard.  Which I believe is Unconstitutional.

The United States Constitution, Article I, Section 10, Clause 3, prohibits any State from keeping troops without the consent of Congress.

They are authorized by the consent of Congress, read Title 32 of the United States Code under the section "Maintenance of Other Troops".

NGR 10-4 is an Army regulation, kinda hard to get the other four Branches to comply with an Army manual.  ;)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 03:43:41 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 11:11:08 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 02, 2014, 09:30:51 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.

I find it funny...that CAP can wear Foreign Awards...but Can't wear State Awards.  Can wear Kuwaiti Liberation Medal...But not the State Medal of Valor.

Concur, the logic... or lack there of... escapes me.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: sardak on July 03, 2014, 04:23:46 PM
I have a state award which The Adjutant General awarded to CAP members for their participation as CAP members on an AFRCC SAR, not DR, mission, which I can't wear on my CAP uniform. CAP awarded nothing for the mission.

Mike

Kinda like during Hurricane Katrina, when the Governor of Louisiana made a blanket award to all US Military (AC and RC), National Guard, State Defense Forces, CAP, USCGAux and foreign military units that deployed to the State of the Louisiana Emergency Service Ribbon and the Louisiana F.E. Herbert Meritorious Unit Commendation.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Private Investigator

Quote from: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 03:43:41 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 11:11:08 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 02, 2014, 09:30:51 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.

I find it funny...that CAP can wear Foreign Awards...but Can't wear State Awards.  Can wear Kuwaiti Liberation Medal...But not the State Medal of Valor.

Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

SARDOC

Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 04:27:20 PM
NGR 10-4 is an Army regulation, kinda hard to get the other four Branches to comply with an Army manual.  ;)

The National Guard Regulation isn't an Army Regulation. 

NGR = National Guard Regulation which is Promulgated by The National Guard Bureau (NGB) which a Joint Command involving the Department of the Army and the Department of the Air Force.

AR = Army Regulation which is Promulgated strictly by the Department of the Army.

The Army National Guard falls under the NGB and isn't required to abide by Army Regulations unless adopted by reference into the National Guard Regulations as an additional reserve component of the United States Army An example is the Army Regulation 670-1.

For Example National Guard Regulation NGR 600-100 adopts Army Regulation 670-1.

Quote2-4. Wearing of the uniform and insignia
Pursuant to Title 10, USC, section 772(a), AR 670-1 prescribes the wear of Army uniforms, insignia, and accouterments for Army National Guard soldiers

The National Guard Regulation only applies to State Defense Forces (no branch specified) if they are affiliated or have interactions with the National Guard (Army or Air).

The SDF in my state still wears the BDU although they can technically wear the ACU. Primarily because of the expense and the AR 670-1 no longer specifies the wear of the BDU uniform meaning the State can do whatever they want with it (just can't say U.S. Army).

Does the SDF in your State have any interaction with the Guard?  I know that in my state they both work for the Adjutant General and the State Department of Military Affairs.  The "Naval" and "Air" militia has long ago become incorporated into one SDF organization and now wear the Army uniform because of these regulations.


SARDOC

Quote from: Private Investigator on July 03, 2014, 05:08:19 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Why shouldn't you be allowed to wear your state awards when you can wear a set of Panamanian Jump Wings for falling out of an airplane?

GroundHawg

Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 04:39:13 PM
Quote from: sardak on July 03, 2014, 04:23:46 PM
I have a state award which The Adjutant General awarded to CAP members for their participation as CAP members on an AFRCC SAR, not DR, mission, which I can't wear on my CAP uniform. CAP awarded nothing for the mission.

Mike

Kinda like during Hurricane Katrina, when the Governor of Louisiana made a blanket award to all US Military (AC and RC), National Guard, State Defense Forces, CAP, USCGAux and foreign military units that deployed to the State of the Louisiana Emergency Service Ribbon and the Louisiana F.E. Herbert Meritorious Unit Commendation.

I didnt know about the MUC. I have orders for the LA ES Medal, but not for the MUC. It would be more drama than it is worth to get it added to a NGB22.

GroundHawg

Quote from: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 06:19:44 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on July 03, 2014, 05:08:19 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Why shouldn't you be allowed to wear your state awards when you can wear a set of Panamanian Jump Wings for falling out of an airplane?

They moved to be inline with the USAF, and now we cant wear any foreign badges unless we are in that country. Boooo

SARDOC

Quote from: GroundHawg on July 03, 2014, 06:53:39 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 06:19:44 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on July 03, 2014, 05:08:19 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Why shouldn't you be allowed to wear your state awards when you can wear a set of Panamanian Jump Wings for falling out of an airplane?

They moved to be inline with the USAF, and now we cant wear any foreign badges unless we are in that country. Boooo

You can wear one, unless in Mess Dress than you can wear them all.

Shuman 14

Quote from: SARDOC on July 03, 2014, 06:13:14 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 04:27:20 PM
NGR 10-4 is an Army regulation, kinda hard to get the other four Branches to comply with an Army manual.  ;)

The National Guard Regulation isn't an Army Regulation. 

NGR = National Guard Regulation which is Promulgated by The National Guard Bureau (NGB) which a Joint Command involving the Department of the Army and the Department of the Air Force.

AR = Army Regulation which is Promulgated strictly by the Department of the Army.

The Army National Guard falls under the NGB and isn't required to abide by Army Regulations unless adopted by reference into the National Guard Regulations as an additional reserve component of the United States Army An example is the Army Regulation 670-1.

For Example National Guard Regulation NGR 600-100 adopts Army Regulation 670-1.

Quote2-4. Wearing of the uniform and insignia
Pursuant to Title 10, USC, section 772(a), AR 670-1 prescribes the wear of Army uniforms, insignia, and accouterments for Army National Guard soldiers

The National Guard Regulation only applies to State Defense Forces (no branch specified) if they are affiliated or have interactions with the National Guard (Army or Air).

The SDF in my state still wears the BDU although they can technically wear the ACU. Primarily because of the expense and the AR 670-1 no longer specifies the wear of the BDU uniform meaning the State can do whatever they want with it (just can't say U.S. Army).

Does the SDF in your State have any interaction with the Guard?  I know that in my state they both work for the Adjutant General and the State Department of Military Affairs.  The "Naval" and "Air" militia has long ago become incorporated into one SDF organization and now wear the Army uniform because of these regulations.

I live in Indiana, the Indiana Guard Reserve (IGR) is the State's Defense Force. From what I see, they are very interactive with the IN Army National Guard but not so much with the IN Air National Guard.

From what I can find online, Indiana did have a Naval Militia until just before the Korean Conflict when all its assets were rolled into the Navy and/or Marine Corps Reserves; and had an Air Component Command until the early 1980's (which wore USAF style uniforms) which was disbanded and its assets and manpower were rolled into the Ground Component Command.

The IGR's website can be located here: http://www.in.gov/igr/index.htm

I attended training once with the IGR a few years ago. I was working to complete my Military Emergency Management Specialist (MEMS) certification and needed to attend a residence ICS-300 course. The IGR was teaching one close to home and asked to attend.

I was very impressed with all the instructors and the attendees. Almost everyone was prior Service and most of those were all combat veterans. The training was very professional on par with most Reserve course instructions I've had over the years if not better.

They made me feel welcome from the moment I showed up until the class's completion. Their military bearing and uniform appearance was all top notch as well.

When I retire from the Federal Forces, an IGR recruiter will be my first phone call the following day.  ;)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: Private Investigator on July 03, 2014, 05:08:19 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Do they conform to a standard Military ribbon bar? If they do, and if I had the power/authority to grant it... then yes I would not see the issue.

My logic here is you can wear US Government non-Military Agency decorations on any of the US Military uniforms (normally their order of precedence varies from Service to Service but the USAF places them between Unit Awards and the Prisoner of War Medal in their ribbon arrangements), then why should State Government non-Military Agency decorations be Any different.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Alaric

Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 08:04:18 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on July 03, 2014, 05:08:19 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Do they conform to a standard Military ribbon bar? If they do, and if I had the power/authority to grant it... then yes I would not see the issue.

My logic here is you can wear US Government non-Military Agency decorations on any of the US Military uniforms (normally their order of precedence varies from Service to Service but the USAF places them between Unit Awards and the Prisoner of War Medal in their ribbon arrangements), then why should State Government non-Military Agency decorations be Any different.

Because the military is a Federal service and US Government non-military agencies are Federal services.  It would be a nightmare determining the order of precedence between every organizations medals, where does it end. Could city police/fire/ems wear their decorations, county?

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 07:50:49 PM
From what I can find online, Indiana did have a Naval Militia until just before the Korean Conflict when all its assets were rolled into the Navy and/or Marine Corps Reserves; and had an Air Component Command until the early 1980's (which wore USAF style uniforms) which was disbanded and its assets and manpower were rolled into the Ground Component Command.

More like early 1990s for the Indiana Air Guard Reserve.  I was at a school in IN WING in the early '90s and I remember encountering an IN AGR 1st Lieutenant.  He was in short-sleeved blues with the lightweight jacket (which was unzipped!).  I'm not sure what their role was.  They seemed to be very small and not enough personnel to take over the operations of the two ANGB's in Indiana if need be.  I know that most states' SDF's primary role is augmenting/armoury management if the Guard is put into Federal service.

He had no distinguishing marks other than a blue nameplate which said "INDIANA STATE DEFENSE FORCE" and a small kind of bronze-coloured badge on the left side of his flight cap.  Everything else was standard, off-the-rack, unmodified USAF.

I'm not sure why he was there but he was a nice guy.  I was wearing the Marks of Cain (berry boards) at the time and he asked, "why the hell are the Air Force making you do that?"  I parrotted the "official" <cough!> line <hack!> about the AF wanting us to look more "distinctive" <vomitando!>.  He said "that's silly," or words to that effect.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Shuman 14

Quote from: Alaric on July 03, 2014, 08:20:52 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 08:04:18 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on July 03, 2014, 05:08:19 PM
Apples and oranges.

As a retired lawman besides the State MoV can I wear my other State awards too? I got something like 21 State awards besides my active duty military awards and my CAP awards.  8)

Do they conform to a standard Military ribbon bar? If they do, and if I had the power/authority to grant it... then yes I would not see the issue.

My logic here is you can wear US Government non-Military Agency decorations on any of the US Military uniforms (normally their order of precedence varies from Service to Service but the USAF places them between Unit Awards and the Prisoner of War Medal in their ribbon arrangements), then why should State Government non-Military Agency decorations be Any different.

Because the military is a Federal service and US Government non-military agencies are Federal services.  It would be a nightmare determining the order of precedence between every organizations medals, where does it end. Could city police/fire/ems wear their decorations, county?

True, it could get messy, but I'm a firm believer that recognition is earned and should be able to be displayed.

Most National Guards and SDFs allow for the wear of other States' decorations on their uniform. Their normal precedence is your current State of Service first, then any other States following in alphabetical order with the decorations from the States in that State's order of precedence.

So to follow my logic, State Government non-Military Agency awards would follow behind the State Military awards with the precedence set up above by alphabet.

So for example if CAP were to allow USCGAux awards and State Military and civilian decorations to be worn this would be the precedence following USAF guidelines (found online so not 100% sure they are correct):

A. US Military Decorations
B. US Unit Awards
C. US non-Military Decorations
D. US Merchant Marine Decorations
E. Prisoner of War Medal
F. Combat Readiness Medal
G. Good Conduct Medals
H. Campaign, Service and Training Awards
I. Marksmanship Awards
J. Air Force Training Ribbon
K. US Merchant Marine Service Awards
L. Foreign Military Decorations
M. Foreign Unit Awards
N. Non-US Service Awards
O. CAP Awards

(Proposed below)

P. USCGAux non-Military Awards
Q. State Military Awards
R. State non-Military Awards
S. 2nd (and so on) State Military Awards
T. 2nd (and so on) State non-Military Awards

As to anything below (i.e. County, City, Town, Village, etc.) a State government decoration (Military or non-Military), they would require approval of at least Wing (or above) to be worn.

Really not as messy as you thought.  ;)



Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present