The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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Chappie

Quote from: Alaric on July 01, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
Quote from: Chappie on July 01, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 11:10:06 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 10:56:39 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 10:51:16 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.


<snip>
If an activity director wants to follow USAF culture and say no ribbons on the shirts......you can't a) fault him for wanting to follow USAF culture.  b) You can't deny that he/she has the authority to do so.  c) You can't criticize him for having the gumption to set a standard and the put up with the belly aching and moaning his going to get.

<end of snip

The following can be added Item a) or follow CAP culture

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf

The no ribbon policy is practiced at NSC as well.

From my personal experience at CCRSC, RSC has been the service jacket is not worn during the class sessions but at the banquet -- those not wearing the USAF-Style uniform or Mess dress if the banquet is in the evening -- and NSC (the banquet dress code is mess dress or blazer combo / ladies wear appropriate dresses).

Having served on staff at both CCRSCs and NSC -- as well as working with RSC staff since as the CCRSC Director, I consulted with Region Professional Development Officer, we modeled the practices of the RSC and NSC. 

Back to original issue: it is up to the commander/activity director to enforce the uniform policy (policies) not NHQ.

If the culture is not to wear the ribbons, why award them?  Just award certificates which people can put on their wall, or stuff in a drawer, as they prefer.

Araja...the restriction of ribbons that I was referring to applies to specific professional development training events -- RSC, CCRSC, and NSC.  As mentioned before, feel free to wear ribbons whenever/wherever provided the commander or activity director directs other wise.  For example, I am attending the CAWG Encampment.  Ribbons are not to be worn by cadets and seniors until the last evening's party and the following day's graduation.  That has been the practice since I began attending encampments in 1997.   I can't recall the last time I wore ribbons on my service shirt or white aviator shirt.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

arajca

Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

Alaric

Quote from: Chappie on July 01, 2014, 09:41:12 PM
Quote from: Alaric on July 01, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
Quote from: Chappie on July 01, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 11:10:06 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 10:56:39 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 10:51:16 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.


<snip>
If an activity director wants to follow USAF culture and say no ribbons on the shirts......you can't a) fault him for wanting to follow USAF culture.  b) You can't deny that he/she has the authority to do so.  c) You can't criticize him for having the gumption to set a standard and the put up with the belly aching and moaning his going to get.

<end of snip

The following can be added Item a) or follow CAP culture

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf

The no ribbon policy is practiced at NSC as well.

From my personal experience at CCRSC, RSC has been the service jacket is not worn during the class sessions but at the banquet -- those not wearing the USAF-Style uniform or Mess dress if the banquet is in the evening -- and NSC (the banquet dress code is mess dress or blazer combo / ladies wear appropriate dresses).

Having served on staff at both CCRSCs and NSC -- as well as working with RSC staff since as the CCRSC Director, I consulted with Region Professional Development Officer, we modeled the practices of the RSC and NSC. 

Back to original issue: it is up to the commander/activity director to enforce the uniform policy (policies) not NHQ.

If the culture is not to wear the ribbons, why award them?  Just award certificates which people can put on their wall, or stuff in a drawer, as they prefer.

Araja...the restriction of ribbons that I was referring to applies to specific professional development training events -- RSC, CCRSC, and NSC.  As mentioned before, feel free to wear ribbons whenever/wherever provided the commander or activity director directs other wise.  For example, I am attending the CAWG Encampment.  Ribbons are not to be worn by cadets and seniors until the last evening's party and the following day's graduation.  That has been the practice since I began attending encampments in 1997.   I can't recall the last time I wore ribbons on my service shirt or white aviator shirt.

Which gets back to my point, why bother with CAP ribbons, if they're not worn at major training events, and people don't wear them on the service shirts, because its not the culture, why waste the money on them and the time awarding them.  Just issue certificates (which also won't be worn).  They can show up in E-services, with the option to print.  If people don't want to bother, they don't, if they want to display them they can print them out and hang them, just like the SLS, CLC, and other certificates.

Eclipse

Quote from: arajca on July 01, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

There are times and places when awards and decorations are appropriate, and times and places when they are less so.

Formal CAP events like banquets, award dinners, promotion ceremonies, etc. are almost always an approprate venue for bling.

Similarly, field or flying duty is rarely an appropriate venue for ribbons, medals, etc.

Reasonable minds can and do differ on where to draw the line, but many members believe that routine "office type" duty is not an appropriate venue for maximum blingage.  It is a time to get the job done.  That is my personal preference, but I certainly understand that others do not share my view.

And from time to time commanders or activity directors may set a UoD policy to includes or excludes optional items like ribbons. 

Eclipse

Quote from: Ned on July 01, 2014, 10:32:07 PM
Formal CAP events like banquets, award dinners, promotion ceremonies, etc. are almost always an appropriate venue for bling.

For those who actually have the option...


"That Others May Zoom"

Chappie

#346
Quote from: arajca on July 01, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

On the contrary,  I am not making the AF tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirt into a CAP tradition.  I am following a custom that CAP follows at their RSC and NSC and have for years.  I was a student at NSC 2001 and on staff 2006, 2007, 2008 -- no ribbon policy.  The CCRSC/RSC has had a no ribbon policy as well. 

The following is not an AF pamphlet but comes from CAP: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Atch17_Student_Info_Package_0EF670511E1D1.pdf

Read page 78 (Attachment 15 - first paragraph on Daily Classroom Wear) from another CAP publication:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/RSC_Directors_Handbook_20110331_FC903955AA92A.pdf

As for the CAWG Encampment, simply following the directives set forth by the Encampment Commanders -- which I participated in since 1997. 

While Eclipse may state that the tradition has no place in CAP ... it has been in place since I joined in 1996 and has been practiced at every CCRSC I have attended as student, staff or director going back to 1997.  And NSC as mentioned above.

So this custom is not something new.

I see senior members wear their ribbons all the time at a SLS/CLC/UCC, Wing/Region/National Conferences, Squadron meetings on their blue service shirt or white aviator -- just not at CCRSC/RSC and NSC.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

THRAWN

Chaplain, the custom may not be new but it does come from the USAF.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Chappie

Quote from: THRAWN on July 01, 2014, 11:31:59 PM
Chaplain, the custom may not be new but it does come from the USAF.

Thanks, Thrawn.   In context, my response was to Arajca who wrote: "you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition".  The point I was endeavoring to make was simply that this is not something that I am initiating.   I am not making the AF tradition into a CAP tradition.   Rather, I am following the custom/protocol/tradition that CAP has been following for years -- which they as part of the USAF family is practicing.   I am taking my cues from CAP on a custom which has its roots in the USAF.   Nothing new.  When you stop and consider, where are most CCRSCs/RSCs and even NSC conducted???  An USAF Base (or now a Joint Military Base).   

I think that this has played out and time to move on.  Back to the topic at hand and the concerns.  We have a new CAPM 39-1...get familiar with it, put it to use and wear the uniform properly.
 

Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Eclipse

Great, we tried it that way.

It, like many other things which reach for affectation and fail, has no place in CAP, time for it to go away.

"That Others May Zoom"

MSG Mac

Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

NIN

Quote from: MSG Mac on July 02, 2014, 01:00:39 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.

Hey, man, don't mess with the zipper suited sun gods.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

MSG Mac

Quote from: NIN on July 02, 2014, 01:15:32 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on July 02, 2014, 01:00:39 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.

Hey, man, don't mess with the zipper suited sun gods.
I always thought it laundry day.

Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Ned on July 01, 2014, 10:32:07 PM
There are times and places when awards and decorations are appropriate, and times and places when they are less so.

Formal CAP events like banquets, award dinners, promotion ceremonies, etc. are almost always an approprate venue for bling.

Similarly, field or flying duty is rarely an appropriate venue for ribbons, medals, etc.

Reasonable minds can and do differ on where to draw the line, but many members believe that routine "office type" duty is not an appropriate venue for maximum blingage.  It is a time to get the job done.  That is my personal preference, but I certainly understand that others do not share my view.

And from time to time commanders or activity directors may set a UoD policy to includes or excludes optional items like ribbons.

I never gave it any thought. I started going "wings only, no ribbons" when I was a cadet officer. The only time I've ever worn ribbons on a shirt since 1970 or so was at encampment graduations and the like.
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
Great, we tried it that way.

It, like many other things which reach for affectation and fail, has no place in CAP, time for it to go away.
Justify that statement?

"has no place" is a pretty strong statement.

"hazing has no place in CAP"....good
"Stealing has no place in CAP"....good
"Following USAF traditions has no place in CAP".....Not so much.

I mean if this tradition has no place in CAP....how about the tradition that we salute officers?  Or give place of precidence?

Okay....I get it.   Those who can't wear USAF uniforms now have now place to wear their bling.   

Yep...that's a problem.   One that should be fixed.

But......breaking with USAF traditions is not IMHO how you go about doing that.
Find another way.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: MSG Mac on July 02, 2014, 01:00:39 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.
I don't remember that tradition.

In fact IIRC the AFI state that you must be on flight status (or missile/space status) to wear them.

If that tradition does exists I make the following points.

a)  Traditions don't have to internally consistent.
b)  The reasoning behind the traditions are different for each tradition.  (Flight wings are mandatory....but specialty badges are optional)(although on the E-side the tradition is NO THEY ARE NOT).

So...trying to make sense of the various traditions is really a lost cause.  We often don't know where they came from, why we do them.  We just do.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

#356
Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 04:18:22 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
Great, we tried it that way.

It, like many other things which reach for affectation and fail, has no place in CAP, time for it to go away.
Justify that statement?

"has no place" is a pretty strong statement.

"hazing has no place in CAP"....good
"Stealing has no place in CAP"....good
"Following USAF traditions has no place in CAP".....Not so much.

I mean if this tradition has no place in CAP....how about the tradition that we salute officers?  Or give place of precidence?

Okay....I get it.   Those who can't wear USAF uniforms now have now place to wear their bling.   

Yep...that's a problem.   One that should be fixed.

But......breaking with USAF traditions is not IMHO how you go about doing that.
Find another way.

This "tradition" literally sets up a situation whereby 1/2 the adult members would never wear their decorations.

So even if there was some "Good Reason®" to do it in the USAF, whatever that is doesn't apply in CAP,
since it's the only way 1/2 the adult membership could ever wear their decs. 

Here again is a place CAP wants to have it both ways.  "What's the big deal?"  "Trying to show off?"  Etc., etc.
when you make an issue of it while facing someone with a chest full or jelly beans telling others they shouldn't
be so excited about ribbons.  Time and again we hear how dec and plumage are the only way CAP can publicly
acknowledge accomplishments, and then the "tradition" is "don't bother".

Seriously?

Why does Capt Twiceayear get to stand in front of his peers and exhibit his 2-line rack of bare minimums and
Col WingCC, who did 3 tours in WWDS gets grief for wearing his?

I would hazard, and I believe it's been said here, that this started because USAF NCOs felt that the officers were showing off
their large racks compared to many in the enlisted ranks.

Again, assuming that is true.  It doesn't apply, even a little, to CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Okay...but IMHO your reason to reject the USAF tradition is not enough to off set the benefits we gain from following this USAF tradition.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 04:45:41 AM
Okay...but IMHO your reason to reject the USAF tradition is not enough to off set the benefits we gain from following this USAF tradition.

What "benefit " does this provide anyone?

The USAF doesn't care GUARANTEED, and it potentially rankles the members affected.

And further, why do we spend so much time worrying about what people OUTSIDE CAP think, and
apparently much less about what the membership, that CAP depends on for its very existence think or feel?

"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 04:24:21 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on July 02, 2014, 01:00:39 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.
I don't remember that tradition.

In fact IIRC the AFI state that you must be on flight status (or missile/space status) to wear them.

If that tradition does exists I make the following points.

a)  Traditions don't have to internally consistent.
b)  The reasoning behind the traditions are different for each tradition.  (Flight wings are mandatory....but specialty badges are optional)(although on the E-side the tradition is NO THEY ARE NOT).

So...trying to make sense of the various traditions is really a lost cause.  We often don't know where they came from, why we do them.  We just do.


AFI 36-2903 is pretty darn restrictive on who can wear flight suits these days.

Short story if you're a flyer, if you don't get flight pay - you don't wear the green bag.
Missile crews and UCAV crews have their own rules, but they're simular.