The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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Chappie

Quote from: JoeTomasone on June 30, 2014, 07:48:23 PM
Quote from: SunDog on June 30, 2014, 07:32:40 PM

if a porker walks by in blues or green Nomex, I do not give a single "darn".  If being within H/W in USAF dress was important to NHQ, they'd deal with it.  They don't, so don't get wrapped around the axle about it.


I don't lay the blame for uniform violations at NHQ's feet.   That's completely in the hands of the unit commanders who actually SEE the personnel in question, and I'll include Group and Wing Commanders.    THEY are the ones who will enforce regulations - or not.   In my experience, most will not, because they are afraid that a member that they hold accountable will quit.    That attitude may save numbers, but it degrades integrity, and lowers the common denominator to which everyone will rise or fall.

Exactly.  When I served as the Director of the Chaplain Corps Region Staff College, each attendee was sent a copy of the CAPM 39-1 in advance for them to consult and with the following instructions:

1) wear the uniform that you will be wearing to the CCRSC to our local squadron and have the cadets inspect you :) ;

2) make sure that you meet the grooming and the h/w standards set forth in the CAPM 39-1.  It doesn't matter what your squadron allows, they will be enforced at the CCRSC because:
    a.  it is the official policy of the CAP
    b.  we are conducting our event at an active USAF base and we do not want to bring disgrace or dishonor on the uniform which we have 
         the privilege to wear.

3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

4) bring a set of g/w,  the blazer combo or a nice set of civilian attire because there is an inspection on the first morning of the CCRSC and if you are not meeting the standards, you will be asked to change into the appropriate attire.

For the event, a protocol officer is appointed who goes over the uniform wear in the informal evening meeting prior to classroom activities that begin the next morning.  The protocol officer conducts the inspection and available prior to the college for any questions/assistance as well as during the college for questions/assistance.

When your folks know what is expected and what won't be accepted, they will perform appropriately.  The commander of the unit (whatever level) or the activity director sets the tone.  As John Maxwell observes, "Everything rises and fall with leadership."
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

arajca

Quote from: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

So, if a member cannot wear the AF uniform, they should not even own ribbons as they would have no uniform to show them, right?

Storm Chaser

Quote from: CyBorg on June 30, 2014, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: SunDog on June 30, 2014, 07:32:40 PM
If being within H/W in USAF dress was important to NHQ, they'd deal with it.  They don't, so don't get wrapped around the axle about it.  If your personal integrity requires you to be in H/W limits, that's cool. If the bowling ball disguised as a Wing Commander has a diffrent point of view, let it go, Louie. . .the boss(es) don't care. . .

Partial agreement.

The AF doesn't really notice much that we do, except for when it involves a major scandal, like a National Commander gone bad.

If they were to really drop the hammer on H/W regs, it would force them to look at themselves and admit that not all Air Force, AFRES, or ANG people are as svelte as they should be.

The Air Force have been actively working for several years to get the force fit and in shape, and have implemented multiple measures to accomplish that, to include incorporating more physical fitness training and kicking out those who, after many efforts, can't pass their physical fitness test. It's still work in progress, but it's much more better now than it was when I joined 18 years ago.

Quote from: CyBorg on June 30, 2014, 08:18:40 PM
They certainly don't take a lot of notice of the State Defence Forces that have Air Wings and wear the USAF uniform (and, believe me, they could, through the State Adjutant General).  They sure don't look distinctive in "low light/at-a-distance."  You MIGHT have state collar brass or a different-coloured nameplate, but that's it.

The "State Defense Forces" are part of the militia of a State and are under the direction of the Governor of that State. We, on the other hand, are just civilians. We have been granted the privilege to wear an equivalent Air Force uniform, as long as we meet certain standards. It's not a right.

Military members earned the right to wear uniforms and can continue to wear them until they're no longer in the military; whether the decision to leave is theirs or whether they're forced out because of not meeting fitness standards.

lordmonar

Quote from: arajca on June 30, 2014, 09:19:51 PM
Quote from: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

So, if a member cannot wear the AF uniform, they should not even own ribbons as they would have no uniform to show them, right?
Sure....save the money.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Chappie

Quote from: arajca on June 30, 2014, 09:19:51 PM
Quote from: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

So, if a member cannot wear the AF uniform, they should not even own ribbons as they would have no uniform to show them, right?

Arajca....we are talking about one event on an active USAF base.   This is also the practice of several RSCs as well as NSC.  No ribbons on shirts/blouses.  One certainly can wear their ribbons on the g/w uniform at their local squadron or at Wing/Region/National events or conferences.  They can wear them on their USAF-style uniform....but on an active USAF base which is hosting a training event, we are endeavoring to follow their culture.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Eclipse

#305
Quote from: arajca on June 30, 2014, 09:19:51 PM
Quote from: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
3) make sure all badges, nameplate, etc are placed properly on uniforms.  (Adjustments if needed are made during inspection). No ribbons on the shirt/blouse -- ribbons on the service jacket only (keeping with the USAF culture of officers not wearing ribbons on shirts/blouses)

So, if a member cannot wear the AF uniform, they should not even own ribbons as they would have no uniform to show them, right?

Another interesting and apropos comment.

There are those who would assert that officers do not wear their decorations on the blues shirt when worn without a jacket.

So a CAP NCO, concentrating on the care and feeding of the other NCOs in the mirror, he can wear all his decs "whenever",
but a CAP Maj, running a Group to the fullest extent of CAP's expectations, he never gets to where them anywhere, right?

But the whites and blues are equal, right?  No class differential?

Right.

Quote from: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 10:05:38 PMbut on an active USAF base which is hosting a training event, we are endeavoring to follow their culture.

Perhaps more time spent developing CAP's culture and less time worrying about anyone else's is in order. Especially since CAP seems to be
the only one in on the "conversation".

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 10:51:16 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 10:56:39 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 10:51:16 PM
Yeah....let's just forget all the USAF axillary stuff.

I think if asked, the majority of members would be more then happy to participate fully as a member of the Air force Auxiliary.

Sadly, more then 1/2 our adult members don't have that option.
And your point?  Since (by you fiat) more then 1/2 of our members don't meet H/W and Grooming standards we should NOT model our culture after out parent organization?

Sorry.....you are being inconsistent there. 

Listen.......in the long run, I actually agree with you.   I think CAP and the USAF needs to get together and hash out this problem and get one uniform.   I really do.

In the mean time.....we make do with what we got....and still try to build a central core culture.....even if it's got two uniforms.

If an activity director wants to follow USAF culture and say no ribbons on the shirts......you can't a) fault him for wanting to follow USAF culture.  b) You can't deny that he/she has the authority to do so.  c) You can't criticize him for having the gumption to set a standard and the put up with the belly aching and moaning his going to get.

You are now arguing both sides of the debate.

And once again....let's not bring the NCO thing into this argument....because if you read the White Paper....and knew how to read between the lines......I think you will find that in the future there may be more NCO's then you expect.   But that's another thread.  :)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

The authority exists, however the unwritten USAF tradition helps create the second class status of the corporates.

So you simply don't follow that tradition because of CAP's reality, and it's never been a part of CAP's culture.

So that's easy.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 11:18:18 PM
The authority exists, however the unwritten USAF tradition helps create the second class status of the corporates.

So you simply don't follow that tradition because of CAP's reality, and it's never been a part of CAP's culture.

So that's easy.
Then you join those who say CAP should separate ourselves from the USAF?

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 11:20:27 PM
Then you join those who say CAP should separate ourselves from the USAF?

Nope.

Establishing yourself is not the same as abandoning your parents.

"That Others May Zoom"

SunDog

Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 11:20:27 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 11:18:18 PM
The authority exists, however the unwritten USAF tradition helps create the second class status of the corporates.

So you simply don't follow that tradition because of CAP's reality, and it's never been a part of CAP's culture.

So that's easy.
Then you join those who say CAP should separate ourselves from the USAF?

Maybe not seperate, but get some more distance? I know many folks value the USAF uniform connection very highly, and it's quite important to them.  But as a personal opinion, personal preference, I just don't see the need for CAP to wear their uniform.  Or adhere so closely to their organizational structure.

Geez, they ain't actually, literally, family - they just have some management oversight. Our rank and file have little (or no) contact with USAF. We don't interoperate much at all.

Maybe grandfather the USAF uniforms for the die-hards, whip up some decent corporate combos, and loose the ghastly GWs? Those look like a crossing guard or tour guide's outfit.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Devil Doc on June 30, 2014, 11:56:16 AM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on June 26, 2014, 07:35:19 PM
Quote from: Alaric on June 26, 2014, 07:20:05 PM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on June 26, 2014, 07:14:53 PM
Quote from: Alaric on June 26, 2014, 06:47:26 PM
From the manual

6.3.1.2.2. Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

So that means CAP expects me to buy a new pair of glasses just to wear in formations?  Way to not think it through.  If the formation is outside anyone wearing photosensitive lenses is going to have a problem.  I'm not spending another 400 dollars just for formations, looks like no RSC for me.
That's actually the rule, verbatim if I recall, from the AF.  Considering in the summary it mentions it used AFI 36-2903 as the template, this is why that exists.


Also, last RSC I was out, we didn't really have formations outside, only one inside each day to get inspected.

I'm not in the Air Force and the US Government doesn't pay for my glasses.  At NER RSC, there is an outdoor formation every day.
The Air Force and US Gov doesn't pay for photosensitive lenses either, at least not the times I went to the med group for my eye appointment.

The government pays for my Transition Lenses. The VA has gave me 2 sets in the past year or so. I lost the first set. My Glasses are prescription I would Assume. My glasses are for things Contacts cannot fix, with my TBI I have sensitivity to light.

I don't get it. It seems that most of the complaints regarding prohibition on sunglasses or transition lenses in formation are coming from Seniors.

Where are all the daylight formations happening, with Seniors in them, that makes this a problem?
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 06:09:30 PM
On the subject of just the G/Ws.

I agree that the ONE change I would make to them today IIWG....would be to find a supplier for a standard gray slacks and skirt and a set of tactical style pants and make that the only ones that could be worn.

That ONE change would fix a lot of heart burn for those who want the G/Ws to be more uniform.

Needs a non-gooberish hat/cap/cover/lid of some sort, too.
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Panache

Quote from: SunDog on June 30, 2014, 07:32:40 PM
if a porker walks by in blues or green Nomex, I do not give a single "darn".

"Porker"?

Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 07:41:33 PM
Sundog's post shows exactly the vector many members take as they realize how many of the things published as "regulations" are treated as "suggestions".

That's the lesson I've learned.

a2capt


Panache

Quote from: a2capt on July 01, 2014, 06:16:28 AM
Quote from: Panache on July 01, 2014, 05:24:34 AM"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.

lordmonar

Quote from: Panache on July 01, 2014, 06:18:46 AM
Quote from: a2capt on July 01, 2014, 06:16:28 AM
Quote from: Panache on July 01, 2014, 05:24:34 AM"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
We have used FAT and FUZZY for since forever.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Panache

Quote from: lordmonar on July 01, 2014, 07:56:01 AM
Quote from: Panache on July 01, 2014, 06:18:46 AM
Quote from: a2capt on July 01, 2014, 06:16:28 AM
Quote from: Panache on July 01, 2014, 05:24:34 AM"Porker"?
Person of size, obviously out of regulation. Come on. ;)

Oh, I knew what he meant.  I just wasn't aware we could use slurs on CT now.
We have used FAT and FUZZY for since forever.

So that makes "porker" okay?  Would you be okay if somebody called one of you family members that?