Cadet Commander

[Airplane girl]

Hi CAPTalk people,

I'm going to be cadet commander starting in July. The two cadet commanders, one former cadet commander and the current commander are going to the dark, mysterious place where cadet commanders go, also known as college. Right now, I'm only a flight sergeant, and a C/TSgt. I was kind of wondering about a few things. The first: how do I get the other cadets to respect me? I'm younger than all of them, and once the current cadet commander leaves, I'll be the only girl. Also, how should I make a schedule for the meetings? Last meeting the cadet commander didn't come and one of the senior members was getting kind of annoyed at me for not knowing what I was doing. My last question: my squadron is really tiny, and I want to try and recruit. But I don't know if we have enough cadets to run the great start program and stuff. Once the cadet commanders leave, I'll be the highest ranking cadet, with the second highest ranking active cadet a C/SrA. Should I wait for the other cadets to promote, and then try to recruit, or try recruiting now?

Thank you, Airplane girl

[Tim Day]

C/TSgt Girl,

It sounds like your cadet program consists of a number and grade distribution of cadets more like a flight than a squadron. There's nothing wrong with that and there are many squadrons are in your position. I would recommend to your cadet program officers that you structure your cadet organization like a flight, with you as the flight sergeant and the senior members providing the leadership functions that would normally be performed by the flight commander and above. If they don't accept that recommendation, don't worry about it - just do your best.

There are resources online for both AE and Leadership, as well as a basic unit schedule. Here's a link (click here). I've found that setting up a meeting focus rotation that you keep every month helps. For example, my squadron's rotation:

• 1st Tues: PT/CD (PT Gear)
• 2nd Tues: AE/Safety Brief (BDU)
• 3rd Tues: Leadership / promotions (Blues)
• 4th Tues: Operational Night (BDU)

We're a large squadron, so on operational nights we break into groups that do Comms, SAR, Public Affairs, and other training. The point is, this rotation makes it easier to do a quarterly schedule and also to keep track of our required contact hours in each topic. Your AE Officer, for example, knows that he should have a class/activity every 2nd Tuesday.

As far as being the only girl, hopefully most of your fellow cadets are professional enough to respect the duty position to which you are assigned and not worry about your age or gender. However, I'm willing to bet this Air Force Officer has faced many of these issues during her career, and she seems to be doing fine now as Superintendent of the US Air Force Academy. While we respect those in authority automatically due to their duty position, good Officers and NCOs earn respect by taking care of their troops and accomplishing their assigned mission. If you make any progress, even a little bit, towards getting your squadron on a predictable schedule, you'll earn respect.

As far as Great Start and recruiting - give your cadets a reason to bring their friends and you will have new recruits, assuming there are people of the right age in your area. Having a packed schedule with meaningful activities is the first step.

[Storm Chaser]

Last meeting the cadet commander didn't come and one of the senior members was getting kind of annoyed at me for not knowing what I was doing.

The senior member at your unit should not be annoyed at you because you're a C/TSgt and your training and experience is that of leading a flight, which is what you currently do. Expecting you to be a cadet commander and know what a cadet commander should know at your current level in the program is not fair to you or the unit. I'm sure you'll do your best to get the job done, but there's a reason CAPP 52-15, Cadet Staff Handbook, recommends that cadet commanders be Phase IV cadets (C/Maj, C/Lt Col and C/Col). The Cadet Staff Handbook also has examples of different organizational structures that may meet your unit's needs, as well as sample schedules. Good luck!

[Spam]

Tailing on to what's said above,

You should not be installed as a Cadet Commander. Tell your Squadron Commander that you've looked at the Super Chart, the Cadet Staff Handbook, and CAPR 52-16, all of which support the position that you should be installed at a leadership position (Flight Sergeant) appropriate to your current grade of C/TSGT and your Phase (II). You need to steer them in turn to go look up the program, under which THEY need to step in to provide planning, records keeping, and steering of the cadet side of the house until you naturally promote into those officer jobs.

V/R,
Spam

[Spam]

Sorry, Cadet girl, for my hasty reply - go read the below references, and THEN have that talk with your senior member chain of command.


See the Super chart, called out by Reg 52-16:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Super_Chart__2011_low__Copy_8371994AD16FE.pdf
Zoom in on the chart: per the suggested positions at the bottom of the chart, you should be a Flight Sergeant, the best you can be, and leave the scheduling and goal setting to the adult leadership while you learn the job of senior NCO.


See Reg 52-16:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
"4-1. Cadet Organization and Staff. The unit commander assigns ranking cadets to the unit's cadet staff... a. Design Considerations.... Each unit should design a staff structure that is appropriate for its mix of cadets, consistent with the broad principles set forth in CAPP 52-15".


See the cadet staff guide, P52-15:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_015_21F7ACED34F45.pdf
"New or Rebuilding Units
In contrast, if the unit is bottom-heavy – perhaps it is brand new or
rebuilding – the senior staff will need to take a more hands-on
approach. In the absence of mature cadet officers, the senior staff
must fulfill the goal-setting, planning, and decision-making functions
until junior cadets acquire some rank, maturity, and leadership skills.
The senior staff may even need to instruct cadets in fundamental subjects
like drill and the wear of the uniform, performing duties normally
assigned to cadet NCOs. Hopefully, cadets will progress quickly and
earn entry-level leadership positions. When that happens, the senior
staff should gradually delegate more authority to the cadets and
enlarge the cadet staff's sense of autonomy. In other words, every time
the cadet staff takes one step forward in the Cadet Program, the senior
staff should take one step back".


So, Airplane girl, my advice is to not stress too much. You're right exactly where you should be, as a C/TSGT, learning direct leadership as a Flight Sergeant, and as such it won't be your job to do officer goal-setting, planning, scheduling, and organization jobs until you are a cadet officer. Those tasks are properly the job of your adult leadership, once your ranking cadet officers leave.  Your adult leaders need to read these references to understand that this is how the program works, and that its their job to step in and help you out by doing cadet commander and flight commander type work for you until you're ready (defined as a Phase 3 Mitchell cadet, by the program) to be a Flight Commander and then Cadet Commander for real.  You may want to tactfully print this advice out, and discuss it openly but respectfully with your Commander (CC) and Deputy Commander for Cadets (CDC), in the context of asking for mentoring (also per the program!) for you as the soon to be highest ranking cadet.


Best of luck to you; as you focus on realistic goals, and apply yourself honestly, I think you'll earn the true respect of your peers. You've earned mine for asking for advice, which many many people fear to do.

V/R,
Spam

[Plane]

You should not be installed as a Cadet Commander. Tell your Squadron Commander that you've looked at the Super Chart, the Cadet Staff Handbook, and CAPR 52-16, all of which support the position that you should be installed at a leadership position (Flight Sergeant) appropriate to your current grade of C/TSGT and your Phase (II).

The super chart only details TYPICAL cadet duties for a particular grade.  If the cadet in question feels ready to accept a command position, then by all means let them.  However if they don't feel experienced enough, then they should wait until they feel ready for the responsibility instead of trying to align their career with the typical duties of a similar cadet.

[Airplane girl]

Thank you all for answering my questions. I'll discuss staying a flight sergeant and not having a cadet commander with my chain of command. I'm not too worried about being the highest ranking cadet if I don't have to plan and schedule stuff. The cadet commanders have left me in charge of the flight when they weren't there several times. Strangely enough, the cadets seem to respect me more when there isn't a cadet commander. And my unit is in the middle of a big city, so there is no reason why there are so few cadets in it. I think it's only a matter of getting our name out and knowing who the commander is and what we are doing at each meeting.

And Plane, although there might be some C/TSgts who are experienced enough and ready to be a cadet commander, I don't think I'm one of them. I have been in CAP for two weeks less than a year, so I don't think I'm at the level of cadet commander yet.

[Spam]

Plane,

"By all means"?  A subjective feeling of readiness to command is not, of itself, sufficient evidence to seat a cadet (or senior) who hasn't demonstrated compliance with the development program of record. Wishing won't make that pig fly.

I may "feel ready" as a Lt Col with 30+ years in CAP, to be a National Commander, yet, I haven't completed NSC nor do I have command experience at or above Region level, so.... NO, I should not even be considered, yet.

By no means would I let my 10 year old drive, even though he feels ready...

V/R,
Spam

[kwe1009]

Plane,

"By all means"?  A subjective feeling of readiness to command is not, of itself, sufficient evidence to seat a cadet (or senior) who hasn't demonstrated compliance with the development program of record. Wishing won't make that pig fly.

I may "feel ready" as a Lt Col with 30+ years in CAP, to be a National Commander, yet, I haven't completed NSC nor do I have command experience at or above Region level, so.... NO, I should not even be considered, yet.

By no means would I let my 10 year old drive, even though he feels ready...

V/R,
Spam

I agree.  Many people "feel ready" for many things they actually are not ready to handle just yet.  Even if the cadet and the Senior Leadership all feel they are ready that may not be the best option.  if a person is a cadet commander as a C/TSgt that doesn't leave much room for growth.  Also, if that cadet does not do a good job as "commander" then that can lead to other issues.  It is better to make mistakes, learn, and grow as a flight sergeant, then flight commander, then XO, and then commander.

Our squadron tries to stick with the recommendations of 52-16 and that has served us well and has put less stress on the cadets to perform at higher levels than their rank and experience would suggest.

[CAPs1]

Perhaps it would be prudent to give her squadron staff the benefit of the doubt; she may think she will replace the cadet commander leaving in July in title and duties, when the rank afforded her will instead be commensurate with her experience, grade and scope of responsibility that comes with a small cadre: flight sergeant.

Other issues, however exhaustive and authoritative I find the contributions in this forum, should be addressed by the C/TSgt with her COC, particularly if she doesn't think she can lead at this time.

There isn't a reg that I am aware of that requires the ranking cadet to be in charge if cadet in question is not comfortable leading.

[Capt Thompson]

It all breaks down to having open, honest communication between yourself, your current C/CC, your DCC and Squadron CC. If you don't feel ready to take on the added responsibility, they need to know now before the current C/CC leaves, and make plans for what they'll do to fill in the gaps. On the other hand, you have a little time, where the current C/CC could work with you at developing some of the skills you feel you lack, so you could take on some of the added responsibility now, and slowly take on more as you progress into the officer ranks and gain more knowledge of the program.

I've seen Cadet NCO's that were excellent Commanders, and Cadet Officers that weren't ready. I took the C/CC spot as a C/SSgt in CAP, but I was also a C/LTC in Army JROTC and a Battalion Commander. CAP grade isn't necessarily a defining factor in someone's abilities, although in most cases it is a pretty good guideline. You may be capable of more than you think, or you may be correct in that you're not ready. The only way to resolve is a conference with the people above you in the chain of command now, so when the C/CC does leave everyone is on the same page.

[Plane]

"By all means"?  A subjective feeling of readiness to command is not, of itself, sufficient evidence to seat a cadet (or senior) who hasn't demonstrated compliance with the development program of record. Wishing won't make that pig fly.

What I meant was that if the cadet has been offered a command position and they feel they are able to accept the responsibility, they should be given a chance to prove that they can perform.

[Storm Chaser]

It all breaks down to having open, honest communication between yourself, your current C/CC, your DCC and Squadron CC. If you don't feel ready to take on the added responsibility, they need to know now before the current C/CC leaves, and make plans for what they'll do to fill in the gaps. On the other hand, you have a little time, where the current C/CC could work with you at developing some of the skills you feel you lack, so you could take on some of the added responsibility now, and slowly take on more as you progress into the officer ranks and gain more knowledge of the program.

I've seen Cadet NCO's that were excellent Commanders, and Cadet Officers that weren't ready. I took the C/CC spot as a C/SSgt in CAP, but I was also a C/LTC in Army JROTC and a Battalion Commander. CAP grade isn't necessarily a defining factor in someone's abilities, although in most cases it is a pretty good guideline. You may be capable of more than you think, or you may be correct in that you're not ready.

And what happens after the C/SSgt or C/TSgt completes their assignment as Cadet Commander? What position do they progress into? Cadet grades and duty assignments in CAP are designed to help cadets develop, grow and progress in the program. Even if a C/NCO is capable, the problem is that there's no other position to move up to after they complete their assignment. The Cadet Staff Handbook addresses this well. Unless a cadet is aging out of the program, there's plenty of time to become Cadet Commander.

[Tim Day]

"By all means"?  A subjective feeling of readiness to command is not, of itself, sufficient evidence to seat a cadet (or senior) who hasn't demonstrated compliance with the development program of record. Wishing won't make that pig fly.

What I meant was that if the cadet has been offered a command position and they feel they are able to accept the responsibility, they should be given a chance to prove that they can perform.

C/2d Lt Claar, you have a valid point in that external symbols of achievement do not always reflect a person's readiness to accept the responsibility that goes with a particular duty position. However, Cadets are not proving their ability to perform but participating in a curriculum that has a practical component, of which positions within the Cadet Organizations are a major subcomponent, and an academic component (your leadership textbooks). These components are scheduled intentionally so that what you are reading about and being tested on corresponds to the duties you are performing. We cheat you, in my opinion, when we place you in a duty position that does not correlate to your academic component.

[Eaker Guy]

Airplane Girl,

I think you have made the wise choice. I am currently a cadet commander, and have been in the CAP for almost 5 years. In this time, I have come across many seniority v grade issues. When there is an issue, I always go for the cadet with the most leadership ability and experience. Although you may not need a cadet commander, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from being the example for these cadets. If everything goes according to plan, you will have many more cadets in your squadron, and the cadets you have now will be your future leadership. Like it or not, you are the highest ranking cadet with the most experience, and you will have to train these cadets eventually. In a way, this situation will prepare you for the harsh realities of life. There is nothing more that I can add at this time, except take a serious look at the resources mentioned in this thread. They are very good. And definitely consult with your adult leadership. They will teach you so that when the time arrives when you have a larger squadron and need more strategic leadership, you will be able to fill the position and lead the squadron.

Good luck, but I don't think you'll need it  :clap:

[Eaker Guy]

Plane,

"By all means"?  A subjective feeling of readiness to command is not, of itself, sufficient evidence to seat a cadet (or senior) who hasn't demonstrated compliance with the development program of record. Wishing won't make that pig fly.

I may "feel ready" as a Lt Col with 30+ years in CAP, to be a National Commander, yet, I haven't completed NSC nor do I have command experience at or above Region level, so.... NO, I should not even be considered, yet.

By no means would I let my 10 year old drive, even though he feels ready...

V/R,
Spam

I agree.  Many people "feel ready" for many things they actually are not ready to handle just yet.  Even if the cadet and the Senior Leadership all feel they are ready that may not be the best option.  if a person is a cadet commander as a C/TSgt that doesn't leave much room for growth.  Also, if that cadet does not do a good job as "commander" then that can lead to other issues.  It is better to make mistakes, learn, and grow as a flight sergeant, then flight commander, then XO, and then commander.

Our squadron tries to stick with the recommendations of 52-16 and that has served us well and has put less stress on the cadets to perform at higher levels than their rank and experience would suggest.

kwe1009,

I think that this whole thread opens up a great discussion. Grade v Experience. In a perfect world, the leadership expectations chart would work like a charm. However, there are so many factors that effect how a cadet progresses in the cadet program. In my squadron, undue command influence has been an issue. A certain C/1st Lt(no names) was eligible for promotion to C/Capt, and was going to be selected for the position of Cadet Deputy Commander. However, the DCC at the time did not feel he was ready, and held him back. The squadron commander, who was the cadet's father, objected and immediately removed the DCC from her position. Everything blew up after that. My point being that right now I have a C/Capt on my staff that is not ready to be on my staff, all because the cadet was not allowed to learn from his mistakes. Does this then mean that the C/Capt deserves to be the cadet deputy commander, simply because he is a C/Capt? My opinion is NO, he does not. I would rather have a C/2d Lt who I trust to lead on my command staff, rather than a C/Capt who, according to the leadership expectations chart, should be my next in command.

I do agree that major breeches in experience, such as the one mentioned in this thread, are harder to work arround. If the case had been that she was going to be put in charge of a large squadron, it could make or break her CAP career. She would either excel and become a fantastic leader, or she could not handle the pressure and lose all her confidence. She is fortunate that she belongs to a small squadron, and she can lead and influence the cadets without holding a command position. She also seemed motivated to do everything in her power to recruit, which suggests that she wants to take an active role in the squadron's development.

I'll only be a few more sentences, I promise! In a situation of Grade v Experience, I would afford the cadet with the most grade some time to get himself/herself together and be capable to fulfill whatever duty position is in question. However, if there is no doubt that the cadet with more experience, but less grade, is the best choice for the said duty position, I would pick the experienced cadet in a heartbeat. So what if the cadet with the most grade passed a few more tests than the other cadet? I believe leadership capability takes precedence over some metal buttons on your shoulder.

[Storm Chaser]

Does this then mean that the C/Capt deserves to be the cadet deputy commander, simply because he is a C/Capt? My opinion is NO, he does not. I would rather have a C/2d Lt who I trust to lead on my command staff, rather than a C/Capt who, according to the leadership expectations chart, should be my next in command.

In an ideal world, a Cadet Commander or Deputy Commander would be a Phase IV cadet. But we don't live in an ideal world. I was a Cadet Commander as a C/Capt many years ago and it was challenging enough as it was.

The issue you discuss here is not where this cadet deserves to be the Cadet Deputy Commander because he's a C/Capt, but whether he should be a C/Capt in the first place. A cadet who's not ready to assume more responsibilities commensurable with his or her grade, should not be promoted to begin with. But again, it happens all the time. Now, this same cadet is likely to promote to C/Maj, so he needs the leadership opportunity in order to grow and learn the things he needs to know and experience at that level. If he's not going to be given that opportunity, then why promote him at all?

A C/NCO may be very capable to assume this type of leadership responsibilities. After all, grade is not the only factor to consider. Age, maturity, training, education and experience all come into play. But that's not what we were arguing about. Ideally, a cadet should not be put in that situation, but given the opportunity to experience all the different functions and facets of the Cadet Programs. A good cadet can always become a better cadet as he or she gains more experience. Going from Flight Sergeant to Cadet Commander, while skipping First Sergeant, Flight Commander, Deputy Commander and every other officer position in between is not the best way to prepare for that position. Can such cadet perform well? Sure. But that same cadet may not have all the necessary experience and tools he or she would have if going through each step of the way before achieving the highest position a cadet can attain in a squadron.

[Eaker Guy]

First of all, I apologize if I went slightly off topic. I recently took command, but was a C/Capt when I was a cadet deputy commander. It is very difficult.

"If he's not going to be given that opportunity, then why promote him at all?" Because nothing says that he needs a duty position to promote. This problem has only occurred recently, and things are changing so that more cadets will be suspended in grade until they are ready for increased responsibility. This may sound very arrogant, although not intended to, but we've never had any problem like this before. Our former DCC was so good at mentoring cadets before this kind of issue could surface.

I do not argue against the fact that C/NCOs are capable of these type of leadership responsibilities at all. When I went to encampment, my flight sergeant was a C/MSgt, and he was one of the best cadets I've ever seen.

In a similar situation, I had cancer when I was six years old. Because of this situation, I skipped part of my childhood. Did I become a better person because of it? Maybe. I matured faster, and was more responsible at an earlier age. On the other hand, I kind of missed what it was like to be a kid. I can totally relate to the question at hand. That's how I know that being thrown in the deep end isn't always such a bad thing. You are absolutely right. A cadet should not have to be put in that kind of situation, and a cadet would miss out on many of the benefits of holding the positions you listed. I totally agree. Then again, a 6 year old kid shouldn't have to deal with cancer, but its the reality of life. You take what life gives you and you make the best of it. It's what creates diversity.

As for the leadership opportunity part, I disagree. A command position, such as C/CC, is a position of execution. When a cadet is struggling with leadership, why put him in one of the most important positions in the squadron? You give him another position that allows him to improve his leadership skills without disturbing the process of running the squadron meetings. I've been in that kind of situation. The cadet commander before me was appointed when he just promoted to C/2d Lt. I was second in line because I developed an arrogant attitude, and was subsequently held back. I was assigned as cadet leadership officer, and it did me a world of good. When the cadet commander left, I was able to step into his shoes fairly easily, because I had worked my buns of for two years making up for the mistake I made. It is not logical to throw a struggling cadet into a high level leadership position. Not at all.

I do appreciate the conversation. I'm looking to better myself and my outlook on leadership, and getting all these different perspectives is very enlightening.

C/Maj Kiss

[CadetSnuffy]

I agree with C/Maj Kiss in that thrusting inexperienced cadets into top leadership positions in a squadron is detrimental to all involved. I also agree with Storm Chaser that each situation is different and that some NCOs are fully capable of the responsibilities of a Cadet Commander. Excuse me if I am wrong, but from what I understood from Airplane Girl, her squadron operates much like a flight. In this case, wouldn't it be unnessesary and innapropriate to assign an NCO as the Cadet Commander? The squadron can operate fine with the NCO in question operating as a first or flight sergeant. Why appoint a Cadet Commander at all?

[Airplane girl]

If it comes to it, Cadet Commander is only a name. In a squadron like mine, a cadet commander would only be doing what a flight commander would do. In the end, I'll really try to do whatever is best for the squadron. The seniors probably understand that I can't lead the cadets entirely on my own.

And on grade vs experience, there is one cadet who is the same grade as me. He seems a lot like the C/Capt that C/Maj Kiss was talking about. In many ways... And there are other cadets who have been in CAP for several months longer than me. They're still C/Amn. Even though grade doesn't mean that much, neither of them seem to care about CAP enough to be anything like a C/CC.

Also, even though I may be missing some parts of the cadet program if I'm commander kind of early, there isn't really a way around it. If I wanted to, I could leave my squadron and go to another squadron that is nearby that has a really successful program. But I'm not going to do that, because I don't want to put another cadet in the position that I'm in now. I can go to the other squadron, but I know there are cadets in my squadron now who live really far away from the other squadron.