Hello I had a Senior join last week who was a cadet it the 80's sometime, he said that he obtained the rank of C/MSGT in the old program the one before Flight Officer(Gold Pip). I was wondering what award it was,he wasn't sure. Thanks.
There were 2 achievements with the same rank of MSgt. I forget the first achievement that got you MSgt but the next one was the Goddard then the next was the Mitchell.
Doolittle was for Ach 6 and award of C/MSG and Goddard for Ach 7 which did not come with a promotion. After Goddard was the Mitchell.
Doesn't matter -- if he doesn't have the Mitchell, he comes in as an SM unless he's prior military.
There was no milestone award until the Mitchell back then... and when you got that, you got the gold moonpie and were a cadet warrant officer (later flight officer) -- still floors me that people don't know to call a FO "Mister."
Doolittle was Ach. 6 to C/MSgt. Goddard was a promotion-less achievement, though if you had a model rocketry badge, you wore a silver star on that ribbon (it centered right over the rocket on the ribbon).
(As an aside -- if seniors can retroactively wear their CAC ribbons, can they also get their Goddards if they had a model rocketry badge? Whoa... I said it... just watch, some poor misguided soul will take it seriously and propose it!)
I wasnt looking to do an advance promotion on him, I was just looking to see what he is eligible to wear and to update his senior record as much as I can.
He says he was a C/MSGT and got to the achievement before the Warrant Officer, so that was the Goddard, is that what everyone is saying? Thats all I really needed to know.
He can wear his highest-earned cadet ribbon -- the Goddard achievement -- and is not eligible for a special appointment. Hope that makes it concise, Captain.
Depends on what you call an "achievement". I was in the same boat - got the Goddard but never the Mitchell, but I would have said (erroneously, perhaps) that my highest achievement was the C/MSgt.
The only thing this is really relevant to is what ribbon he's eligible to wear (highest earned Cadet ribbon) as a Senior.
Thats what I am trying to figure out what ribbon he is able to wear.
When my Daughter came up through the Cadet program in the early 90's C/MSgt was the Godard ribbon. When I came up through the Cadet program in the 70's C/MSgt was the Godard ribbon. So I guess it would be safe to say the Godard ribbon is what he could wear. Now the next question is if he earned his model rocket badge? If so then he should/could wear a sliver star on it.
OK, thanks everyone can someone please delete this post.
Quote from: RickFranz on April 02, 2008, 10:47:45 PM
Now the next question is if he earned his model rocket badge? If so then he should/could wear a sliver star on it.
Not for someone who hasn't also earned the Mitchell. See CAPR 39-3 for details.
Quote from: Capt_Redfox30 on April 02, 2008, 10:50:44 PM
OK, thanks everyone can someone please delete this post.
We don't nuke threads just because a question has been asked and answered.
OK, I'm sitting here looking at a CAPF 66, dated Sep 63 (yes the original one from the change back then, and it goes like this:
New cadet = Cadet
Curry = C/B
Any Phase II ach = C/3C (1 stripe)
Any 2 Phase II ach = C/2C (2 stripes)
Any 3 Phase II ach = C/1C (2 stripes)
Any 4 Phase II ach = C/SSGT (2 stripes)
Any 5 Phase II ach = C/TSGT (2 stripes)
All Mitchell req = C/MSGT (2 stripes)
Phase II achievements, at that time, had no specific completion order. This actually worked well, because all the Phase II cadets could work on the same AE module at once.
In 1968, the rank of Cadet Warrant Officer was instituted, and that became associated with completion of the Mitchell requirements. I don't recall the other changes that may have come at that time.
At some time after that, the achievement sequence was specifically defined, and the documentation process was also changed. Actually, what we have now (CAPF 52-X) is at least the third process I know of. I was away from CAP for two extended periods, so there may have been even more along the way.
To answer the original Q, I would say he could wear the Goddard ribbon, with substantiating documentation. FWIW, there at least three more awards I could wear if I had documentation, but I can't (won't) because I don't have it.
While I agree to a certain extent first if records were kept of this achievement in the first place it would be a miracle. Secondly if the information was kept around for a few decades there would be an SUI observation by now, and finally for something of such low level importance wear it.
If he was saying he earned the Falcon Award or a SMOV then I'd throw up a flag and ask for documentation.
(FYI- I can personally guarantee you that your group commander (or designee ;D) will write a letter for the member personnel record )
When I was a cadet in the '80s, inactive Cadet records were retained for a time period (2 years, I think, since you could renew during that time and retain everything you earned) and then could be discarded. So my Cadet records were lost - hell, my old Squadron was disbanded some time afterwards. However, I *know* that I "Got the Goddard" and thus I wear it. If I were ever to be challenged, I'd deal with it then.
The cadet grade structure at the time was:
C/Basic
C/Airman (1 stripe)
C/Airman 1st Class (2 stripes)
C/Sgt (3 stripes)
C/SSgt (4 stripes)
C/TSgt (5 stripes)
C/MSgt (6 stripes)
C/Warrant Officer (gold pip - Mitchell Award)
C/2nd Lt (silver pip)
C/1st Lt (2 silver pips)
...And so on as it is today up to C/Col.
Ahhhhh...Cadet Flight Officer, solid green "fatigues", Those were the days.
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 03, 2008, 03:58:22 AM
Ahhhhh...Cadet Flight Officer, solid green "fatigues", Those were the days.
Newbie. ;) ;D
Just out of curiosity, what were the ribbons associated with the other grades?
Quote from: JoeTomasone on April 03, 2008, 03:43:02 AM
The cadet grade structure at the time was:
C/Basic
C/Airman (1 stripe)
C/Airman 1st Class (2 stripes)
C/Sgt (3 stripes)
C/SSgt (4 stripes)
C/TSgt (5 stripes)
C/MSgt (6 stripes)
C/Warrant Officer (gold pip - Mitchell Award)
C/2nd Lt (silver pip)
C/1st Lt (2 silver pips)
...And so on as it is today up to C/Col.
Quote from: MIKE on April 02, 2008, 10:50:58 PM
Quote from: RickFranz on April 02, 2008, 10:47:45 PM
Now the next question is if he earned his model rocket badge? If so then he should/could wear a sliver star on it.
Not for someone who hasn't also earned the Mitchell. See CAPR 39-3 for details.
Quote from: Capt_Redfox30 on April 02, 2008, 10:50:44 PM
OK, thanks everyone can someone please delete this post.
We don't nuke threads just because a question has been asked and answered.
Sorry you are correct about the star only being for a Mitchell award winner. Seems odd, that the star would only be worn by a C/officer. I guess the figured that with all the ribbons they would not want to wear a pocket rocket.
Late 1970's - Early 1980's
Cadet Basic
Cadet...................................Ach 1.........Curry...............Completes Phase I
Cadet 1st Class......................Ach 2..........Arnold
Cadet Sergeant......................Ach 3..........Wright Brothers
Cadet Staff Sergeant..............Ach 4..........Rickenbacker
Cadet Tech Sergeant..............Ach 5..........Lindbergh
Cadet Master Sergeant............Ach 6.........Doolittle
(No Promotion).......................Ach 7.........Goddard
Cadet Warrant Officer.............Mitchell Award..................Completes Phase II
Cadet 2nd Lt.........................Ach 8.........Flight Commander
(No Promotion).......................Ach 9.........Public Affairs Officer
Cadet 1st Lt..........................Ach 10.......Logistics Officer
(No Promotion).......................Ach 11.......Operations Officer
Cadet Captain........................Earhart Award..................Completes Phase III
Cadet Major (Discretionary)......Ach 12......Leadership Officer
Cadet Major (Earned)..............Ach 13......Aerospace Education Officer
Cadet Lt Col (Discretionary)......Ach 14.......Administrative Officer
Cadet Lt Col (Earned)..............Ach 15.......Cadet Commander.......Completes Phase IV
Cadet Colonel.........................Spaatz Award
I am not sure when, but sometime betweem 1982 and 1988 C/WO was changed to C/FO.
Quote from: bte on April 03, 2008, 02:22:25 PM
I am not sure when, but sometime betweem 1982 and 1988 C/WO was changed to C/FO.
I was a cadet from 1978-1985 and it was C/WO at that time so it must have been after 1985.
It changed from C/WO to C/FO just before I got my Mitchell, I think -- since I don't remember being a warrant officer -- so I'm guessing 1986.