NEC Minutes - Draft - Nov 2009

[SarDragon]

Lighten up, Francis. I did my share of gate duty WIWOAD. Things were different back then. But even today, there is a small segment of folks who shouldn't be in the job because of personality issues.

And FWIW, I agree that every one of your points are valid.

Also, I think we're getting way off topic here.

[NCRblues]

First, who is Francis?

Second, so because a few people that probably should not be standing guard duty were put there, you paint all of them as goons? I guess if we're going to go down that road, all of cap's members are wannabe's because a few act that way. I am sure you would disagree with that statement correct?

Are we getting off topic? Woops, I guess I just can't stand when someone insults an entire carrier field, which has thousands of outstanding men and women in them.

[SarDragon]

Ok, apology in order. After a rethink, I see that in today's environment, the term was out of line.

[Spike]

Everyone thinks a CAC is a military card, that can only be issued by the military services.  Well, it is a US Government ID Card, issued by many more offices than just military ID Card centers. 

Some how a few of you think that giving CAP members a proper Government ID card would would by some way make it a burden on the military or "gate guards" at Air Force Bases.  Well, the ID cards should be inspected by the guards upon entry onto the base.  It takes about 2 seconds to scan the card and look at the face of the member.  If a guard can not do this, should he or she really be entrusted to be standing "guard".

Really, the Cards would be used more by aircrews and ES folks than they would be by members who happen to meet on a military installation. 

Again, a CAC is a US Government ID Card.  The military happens to be a large user of the CAC, but not the ONLY user. 

[desertengineer1]

As being a past "gate goon" I take offense to this term. The gate guards (at least SF) are Law enforcment officers, with the power to arrest, detain, and ticket you, and hold the power to allow you access to the base, with or without a cac or another form if ID.

Speaking from experience, the "gate goons" are not briefed on what cap is at all. If it wasn't for me being in cap, I would have never know what you people in almost AF blues wearing officers grade where doing there.

Some cap members act like it's an insult for every SF airman, and contracted gate guard, to not greet cap officers with the same respect as the captains and LT's that drove through before him.

In a post 9/11 world, if you were the gate guard and had no clue what cap was, if someone drove up to your gate, with somewhat AF blues on, and handed you a driver's license instead of a military id, you would greet him with less than happy enthusiasm.

Speaking as a cap member and AD Air force, cap does not need a blank check access to the base that a cac card type of id would allow for. It takes maybe 5 minutes at the visitor's center, to tell them who you are and why you're there, they make a phone call to the base command center they say sure send em on, and bam you're on for the day. We really don't need any more than that.

I don't like hearing that either.  Even if it is stated in a joking manner, it doesn't help the fact that we have attitude problems from certain members.  Remember that we are GUESTS on these installations.

SFS members are probably the most overworked, over deployed, and least respected (by those who don't know what they do).

On the other subject, it's very easy to get an access letter for CAP members.  We do it every week for the hosted squadron, and every month for our wing staff meeting.

[desertengineer1]

Everyone thinks a CAC is a military card, that can only be issued by the military services.  Well, it is a US Government ID Card, issued by many more offices than just military ID Card centers. 

Some how a few of you think that giving CAP members a proper Government ID card would would by some way make it a burden on the military or "gate guards" at Air Force Bases.  Well, the ID cards should be inspected by the guards upon entry onto the base.  It takes about 2 seconds to scan the card and look at the face of the member.  If a guard can not do this, should he or she really be entrusted to be standing "guard".

Really, the Cards would be used more by aircrews and ES folks than they would be by members who happen to meet on a military installation. 

Again, a CAC is a US Government ID Card.  The military happens to be a large user of the CAC, but not the ONLY user.

I'll state this again.... 

ID cards are issued by the authority of the installation commander to individuals who require access to the base for their duties and responsibilities - as defined by the mission need and their employment/employee contracts.  BX employee = yes.  Military members = already there with the military ID.  Civilians = AFMC 350 or CAC as required by thier jobs.  Contract employees = as required basis.  Even those are denied and have to get a base pass.  CAP = no.  Not for weekly meetings.

Justfication cannot be made for CAP.  I'm sorry to break your troll path, but that's the way it's going to be.

My previous posts had nothing to do with the gate guards.  It's the time and hourly costs associated with authorizing, issuing, and managing them.  Estimating about two man-hours for each member, you get an enourmous cost that will be burdoned by the AF.  Most likely that will be an unfunded requirement, which means it will come out of FSS O&M funds.  Umm.. No.

This is not the AF of the cold war.  Many units have told their members to bring toilet paper from home these past few years.  Many ANG bases almost had to suspend full timers for a week or so last FY because they were millions short on O&M.

I DO NOT support spending millions we don't have to manage ID cards for people who will rarely, if at all, will do duties with an AF host base.  In addition, it will add more hours of wait time.  It's already a two hour wait for retirees and dependants at our local base.  They do not need to be waiting longer due to CAP.

To the trolls on this list:  If you don't know what your talking about, don't get twisted up when you are corrected by those that do - especially when you elude to defining the job requirements of people whom allow YOU on thier installation as guests.

And you wonder why many of our members get treated badly, or worse, why CAP commanders tell certain members to go somewhere else?  I got nothin...

I told myself I would not come back to captalk after the last round of idiocy.  I'm seeing this discussion go down the same path.  Ugh...

[PHall]

Everyone thinks a CAC is a military card, that can only be issued by the military services.  Well, it is a US Government ID Card, issued by many more offices than just military ID Card centers. 

Some how a few of you think that giving CAP members a proper Government ID card would would by some way make it a burden on the military or "gate guards" at Air Force Bases.  Well, the ID cards should be inspected by the guards upon entry onto the base.  It takes about 2 seconds to scan the card and look at the face of the member.  If a guard can not do this, should he or she really be entrusted to be standing "guard".

Really, the Cards would be used more by aircrews and ES folks than they would be by members who happen to meet on a military installation. 

Again, a CAC is a US Government ID Card.  The military happens to be a large user of the CAC, but not the ONLY user.

CAC = Common Acess Card. It's just a "smart card" that DOD just happens to use as a ID Card too.

[Spike]

desertenginner,

You need to read posts just a little more closely.  You are hell bent on the idea that CAP needs proper ID cards for those FEW that meet on a military installation.  You are incorrect. 

I got my CAC in just under 15 minutes.  I got it far AWAY from a military installation.

So, get off your high horse, and stop trashing people who differ in opinion to you.  You are ignorant on this subject.  I looked at your previous posts and it looks like you get confused on simple subjects easily. 

It comes down to this....There are other means to issuing CAP Members proper ID cards than through an "Air Force Base". 

[desertengineer1]

desertenginner,

You need to read posts just a little more closely.  You are hell bent on the idea that CAP needs proper ID cards for those FEW that meet on a military installation.  You are incorrect. 

I got my CAC in just under 15 minutes.  I got it far AWAY from a military installation.

So, get off your high horse, and stop trashing people who differ in opinion to you.  You are ignorant on this subject.  I looked at your previous posts and it looks like you get confused on simple subjects easily. 

It comes down to this....There are other means to issuing CAP Members proper ID cards than through an "Air Force Base".

Good grief.  How clear do I have to try to make this?

My opinion is simple.  I do not support the idea that DoD should be issuing ID cards for CAP members as a whole.  IF there are exceptions, as deemed by the installation commander and the mission, they can be issued one.  But that has to meet some pretty tight criteria.

I have an issue with the rather lax, borderline insulting attitude by a few members on this board.  Let's take a quick tour, shall we?

"Some how a few of you think that giving CAP members a proper Government ID card would would by some way make it a burden on the military or "gate guards" at Air Force Bases.  Well, the ID cards should be inspected by the guards upon entry onto the base.  It takes about 2 seconds to scan the card and look at the face of the member.  If a guard can not do this, should he or she really be entrusted to be standing "guard"."

For someone accusing me of being confused, you seem to have a nice hypocrite factor with this comment.  I stated clearly that (in my opinion) this is an issue with those making the ID cards, not the gate guards.  Drop it with the gate guard drama.  They have one dog in this fight - to verify the member's credentials meet the requirements of the installation for access.  This DOES NOT include snide comments regarding thier qualifications.  Reference the other comment I made regarding perception.  WE ARE GUESTS.

The current processes and procedures allow expeditious access to a military installation with a phone call and maybe an email.  They DO NOT justify giving a CAP member open access to a base anytime they want.  Very few CAP members in our organization meet this criteria.  Those members are issued ID cards IAW the approval process I stated.

I DO NOT support adding another family of ID cards to pass and ID's management when there are other avenues available that work well.  The added cost DOES NOT justify the overall expense - in my humble, 21 year and counting AF career opinion.

When you are on an AF wing or squadron command staff, responsible for the base's O&M management, maybe you'll have some credibility to throw around insults and be a troll. 

[arajca]

The current processes and procedures allow expeditious access to a military installation with a phone call and maybe an email.  They DO NOT justify giving a CAP member open access to a base anytime they want.  Very few CAP members in our organization meet this criteria.  Those members are issued ID cards IAW the approval process I stated.

That may be the case at YOUR base. As a wing staff member, I have a base access card for one base I need to get on. If you are not on a pre-approved list, there is no on-the-spot access to this base. A phone call or email will NOT get someone on the base unless everything is done well in advance of the member arriving. An MSA requires three weeks advance notice to get.

I DO NOT support adding another family of ID cards to pass and ID's management when there are other avenues available that work well.  The added cost DOES NOT justify the overall expense - in my humble, 21 year and counting AF career opinion.

When you are on an AF wing or squadron command staff, responsible for the base's O&M management, maybe you'll have some credibility to throw around insults and be a troll.

The AF allows each base to establish access rules and procedures. Some bases require an act of God to get on. Others just require a driver's license and CAP membership card. At one time, a 101 card worked on some bases. The two bases I access have very different procedures. One is the d/l and membership card for the member - they cannot bring anyone else one with them, including parents of cadets. The other requires a specific base access card. No card, no entry.

[Short Field]

The two bases I access have very different procedures. One is the d/l and membership card for the member - they cannot bring anyone else one with them, including parents of cadets. The other requires a specific base access card. No card, no entry.

Makes you wonder why the base commander at the one base restricts CAP members.  Something had to have started that restriction and been a big enough reason to keep getting passed from commander to commander. 

[Cecil DP]

The two bases I access have very different procedures. One is the d/l and membership card for the member - they cannot bring anyone else one with them, including parents of cadets. The other requires a specific base access card. No card, no entry.

Makes you wonder why the base commander at the one base restricts CAP members.  Something had to have started that restriction and been a big enough reason to keep getting passed from commander to commander. 

Every base has or is supposed to have a CAP Liason assigned by the base commander. Has anyone contacted him/her to find out what needs to be done to get the base access?

[PHall]

The two bases I access have very different procedures. One is the d/l and membership card for the member - they cannot bring anyone else one with them, including parents of cadets. The other requires a specific base access card. No card, no entry.

Makes you wonder why the base commander at the one base restricts CAP members.  Something had to have started that restriction and been a big enough reason to keep getting passed from commander to commander.

All it takes is one bad experience with a CAP member to screw things up.
And the "easiest" solution for the Base Commander is to restrict access by CAP. If they're not on "their" base, then they won't cause them any problems.
And it's perfectly legal too.

[Spike]

Good grief.  How clear do I have to try to make this?

My opinion is simple.  I do not support the idea that DoD should be issuing ID cards for CAP members as a whole.  IF there are exceptions, as deemed by the installation commander and the mission, they can be issued one.  But that has to meet some pretty tight criteria.

Again I will say; There are OTHER ID cards available from the Federal Government, and other places to get them than at an AIR FORCE BASE. 

I have an issue with the rather lax, borderline insulting attitude by a few members on this board.  Let's take a quick tour, shall we?

Get over it!  We don't have to like what you like, we don't even have to like you.  In fact, I think your ideas and posts are full of misinformation and incredibly inaccurate idealogy. 

When you are on an AF wing or squadron command staff, responsible for the base's O&M management, maybe you'll have some credibility to throw around insults and be a troll.

Umm.....what?!?!  Again, get off your soap box.  You are missing my point entirely.  What does being on an AIR FORCE staff have to do with our discussions here??  Let me give you a lesson in how DEERS enrollment and RAPIDS Offices work.  The employees of these offices and the offices alone are funded by the DOD, not the local AIR FORCE BASE.  Most of them now have private contractors running the offices.  For Credentialing Offices outside of the military base they are funded through supplemental expense programs of the GSA.  GSA runs more Government ID offices than all of the military services offices combined.

But to you, unless we agree with what you have to say we are only trolls.  We are not worthy of presenting ideas or debate. 

It is not difficult to give CAP members a Government ID Card.  Heck, it can be a DHS card, a CAC (of the nonmilitary variety!) or a freaking Airport ID card for those members needing access to the Airfields.   

[Short Field]

It is not difficult to give CAP members a Government ID Card.  Heck, it can be a DHS card, a CAC (of the nonmilitary variety!) or a freaking Airport ID card for those members needing access to the Airfields.   

There is still no case for issing CAP members a Government ID Card to begin with.  If CAP members NEED to get on a military base, then there are ways to get them on base.   

[BillB]

I guess Short Field doesn't fly CAP aircraft from airports that have airline operations. A "govertment issued ID" is required for access to the flightline. TSA is getting strict on general aviation having the ramp badge/pass.

[sparks]

If the airport has scheduled airline service pilots will need an ID to access the ramp, hanger area etc. We can't get through the gate to our hanget row without an electronic coded pass card.

The government Id shirt field is probably refering to is either the CAC or locally issued installatin ID card. Retirees have those too not just DOD employees and contract staff.

The issue really is whether the base commander or his staff is interested enough to
provide CAP access with temporary or permanent (expiring) ID cards. Those with established relationships get them and those without it probably won't.
The money comment would be used as an excuse not to issue cards.

[Gunner C]

Here's the way to do it. 

• Have a demonstrated need to get on base
• Have your squadron commander, group commander, and wing commander endorse a memo to the region commander justifying the need
• Region commander endorses the memo to the CAP-USAF Liaison Region Commander
• CAP-USAF Liaison Region Commander writes a memo to the base commander requesting base access and CAC card, giving the justification and start/end dates (not to exceed the current membership expiration date)

• Members involved with projects such as ARCHER could be given a two year expiration
• This system puts our liaison system in the mix where they should be
• It would also give USAF oversight that is familiar with the mission

IMHO, this would be the way to go.  You need RM types making the request while using the CAP chain of command to verify the need.  I think this is reasonable and balanced.

Why would one base say "OK" and another say "heck no"?  Difference in missions would be one reason.  If a commander feels that his mission security requirements outweigh the benefits of the CAP mission, then it's a no-brainer. 

But as stated above, this should be by exception.  A CAC card, even one designed for contractors, is something that needs to be protected.  The card holders would need to realize that after the first "stupid infraction" the program would vanish.  Commanders would need to do a gut check and make it clear to those cardholders that misconduct would be dealt with harshly, probably beginning with demotion and escalating rapidly from there. 

[NCRblues]

You could have a DHS cac card, but that does not grant you accesses to a DOD instillation. DOD doesn't answer to DHS. FBI, CIA, DHS still needs the base commander's approval to enter his instillation. So even with a DHS cac, you will still need to be on an ECL (entry control list) at the gate, and that requires phone calls and letters from your chain of command, so were back to where we were in the first place. Just because you get a federal ID it doesn't mean you need access to DOD instillations. You need a DOD id.

I am still not sure what we desperately need full base access for? No one has given a good reason for it.

One of the reason's someone said was some units meet on an instillation. Well, if their meeting on the instillation already, something tells me they get access no problem, but that's just me. If something is working, why are we going to try and fix it?

What other reason does cap need open access to instillations? Clothing sales? That would be a waste of time and money because the card is issued to one person, not everyone in a unit.
Flight line access is restricted anyway; you need a restricted area badge to get on a flight line so cac cards won't help there.

I am at a loss of why cap needs full access.

[RiverAux]

No need to go through Region to CAP-USAF, that is what we have CAP-USAF State Directors for.  They are there to work with local military on issues just like this.