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[MIKE]

Read the threads... They aren't hard to find.

[Civilian_Pilot]

The crux of it all is contained here in Response #46:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2967.0

And the attitude associated with it.

To recap a few of the main points:

--An individual showed up and volunteered with a helicopter equipped with spotlight, FLIR, appropriate radios

--In doing so he did not just freelance into the search area.  Instead he went into operations to integrate properly with the Ops. Center as evidenced here by a wittiness: 

Feel free to stand by your inaccurate information.  I was one of the few people that was actually part of the conversation, not a third party hearing it from my buddies after the fact.  I am a CAP officer and a law enforcement officer involved in aviation.  I happen to live in both worlds.  So if you want to talk about having no axe to grind I'd say I qualify.  Nobody heard him identify himself as a Deputy because he never did.  I was with him from the moment he landed until the time he took off.  I apparently dont qualify as one of the parties present who witnessed any statements. 

--And for all his effort he was met with Response #46 http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2967.40

--In doing so a piece of equipment far superior to the Cessna 182 left the search area that is now into its second week.

[Skyray]

In another thread I commented that I was a Mission Coordinator.  You have no idea how many nuts come out of the woodwork on a search mission.  The higher the mission profile, the more and wilder the nuts.  The fact that you had a valuable asset to offer, and you got caught in the Nut Net is regrettable.  The Ops officer of the mission base posted, and if you haven't read it, you should go back and do so.  If you have read it and are still incensed, I would suggest you join CAP and get some credentials that the ops officer will credit.

[Major Carrales]

In another thread I commented that I was a Mission Coordinator.  You have no idea how many nuts come out of the woodwork on a search mission.  The higher the mission profile, the more and wilder the nuts.  The fact that you had a valuable asset to offer, and you got caught in the Nut Net is regrettable.  The Ops officer of the mission base posted, and if you haven't read it, you should go back and do so.  If you have read it and are still incensed, I would suggest you join CAP and get some credentials that the ops officer will credit.

There are some insurance and liability issues that come into play when on CAP missions...especially USAF assigned ones.

However, ICS is a fluid chain of command.  In the various span of control, it is not out of the ordinary for a multi-agency ICS mission to take place.  The result would be that the "Air Branch" could contain non-CAP assets under the the Control on a CAP Air Branch Director.

This is something that the planning section must deal with early on.  If we are on a CAP Mission being run in the ICS format exclusively.  In this case, a non-CAP asset would not and should not fall under the veil of CAP.

What is the ICS structure like in this search?   Is it multi-agency or is it all CAP? That makes a bit of difference.

I am prepared to clarify my points if need be...

[Civilian_Pilot]

In another thread I commented that I was a Mission Coordinator.  You have no idea how many nuts come out of the woodwork on a search mission.  The higher the mission profile, the more and wilder the nuts.  The fact that you had a valuable asset to offer, and you got caught in the Nut Net is regrettable.  The Ops officer of the mission base posted, and if you haven't read it, you should go back and do so.  If you have read it and are still incensed, I would suggest you join CAP and get some credentials that the ops officer will credit.

How many nuts show up in Hughes 500 Helicopters equipped with FLIR?

[Major Carrales]

In another thread I commented that I was a Mission Coordinator.  You have no idea how many nuts come out of the woodwork on a search mission.  The higher the mission profile, the more and wilder the nuts.  The fact that you had a valuable asset to offer, and you got caught in the Nut Net is regrettable.  The Ops officer of the mission base posted, and if you haven't read it, you should go back and do so.  If you have read it and are still incensed, I would suggest you join CAP and get some credentials that the ops officer will credit.

How many nuts show up in Hughes 500 Helicopters equipped with FLIR?

True, but  established precedures must be followed.  It is when these procedures break down that everything from safety to mission planning is threatened.

[Skyray]

The answer to your question is that you would be amazed.  I am not saying that you didn't offer a valuable asset, and had I been Ops, I would have likely accepted it.  But CAP is a bureaucracy, and it is not so simple; there are T's to be crossed, and I's to be dotted.  Perhaps Ops was overstressed at that point and didn't feel that utilizing the asset was worth the problems associated with it.  As Major Carrales pointed out, insurance and reimbursement are only part of it.

[Civilian_Pilot]

True, but  established procedures must be followed.  It is when these procedures break down that everything from safety to mission planning is threatened.

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

[Skyray]

Truth be known, that individual may have done you a favor.  I presume that you wanted to get reimbursed for your gas and oil.  Let me tell you a funny story about how CAP works. I am treading close to the line here, so bear with me.  In 1996 I was in a group that was out of favor with the wing commander and he had taken away our airplane.  The Mission Coordinator called me up with an emergency search and wanted to use mine.  I explained to him the status of my aircraft as not being a CAP aircraft, and he said he was using his authority as a Mission Coordinator to requisition the aircraft.  I assembled a crew, and flew several hours of search over the everglades.  Fuel came to something over six hundred dollars, and I submitted receipts and a claim.  The claim was denied because there was a CAP asset available.  I never did get paid.  So did you want to finance your sortie out of Minden?

[Major Carrales]

True, but  established procedures must be followed.  It is when these procedures break down that everything from safety to mission planning is threatened.

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

My primary duty in CAP at this point is Command of my local unit, however, I am a Public Affaris Officer and, ultmately later on, a Mission Information Officer.  I understand the need to improve all contact with the general public and individuals.

Some of our number demonstrate certain character flaws that are...disheartening at best and problematic at worse.  I have been at the meetings where grandiose displays of THREATRICS have resulted from personality conflits.  It is distasteful and counter productive.

[Civilian_Pilot]

True, but  established procedures must be followed.  It is when these procedures break down that everything from safety to mission planning is threatened.

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

My primary duty in CAP at this point is Command of my local unit, however, I am a Public Affaris Officer and, ultmately later on, a Mission Information Officer.  I understand the need to improve all contact with the general public and individuals.

Some of our number demonstrate certain character flaws that are...disheartening and best and problematic at worse.  I have been at the meetings where grandiose displays of THREATRICS have resulted from personality conflits.  It is distasteful and counter productive.

Thank you for your honest response.

I think all organization have "hot shots".  I suppose what upset me so much was the SEARCH & RESCUE aspect as opposed to a more benign endeavor like flipping burgers.

I don't think individuals on power trips realize how much they hurt an organization both on the inside and outside.

[JayT]

What did I miss?

[Pylon]

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

FYI -- this is the best way I've seen the question asked.  Kudos for sticking around with the intent to constructivly approach the problem.  I hope maybe we can develop some better answers.

Personally, I think we need to develop official guidance on employing volunteer air, ground, and mission base assets from outside of CAP -- that means procedures for assets we request, assets from other local organizations, and assets from volunteers and community members who offer assistance.

It probably would take some time, and require assistance of CAP Legal to pound out things like liability issues, but it's well worth it to have such guidance established for mission coordinators and ICs going forward.

[Civilian_Pilot]

OK fair enough.  I guess my real question is why a single individual from CAP was allowed to procedure to breakdown in such an offensive manner that even CAP members who were wittiness were taken aback by the callousness of it?

And I ask this for only one reason.  This event was not training.  It was/is an actual search and rescue.  It all looks very counter-productive to the recovery of the lost party.

FYI -- this is the best way I've seen the question asked.  Kudos for sticking around with the intent to constructively approach the problem.  I hope maybe we can develop some better answers.

Personally, I think we need to develop official guidance on employing volunteer air, ground, and mission base assets from outside of CAP -- that means procedures for assets we request, assets from other local organizations, and assets from volunteers and community members who offer assistance.

It probably would take some time, and require assistance of CAP Legal to pound out things like liability issues, but it's well worth it to have such guidance established for mission coordinators and ICs going forward.

I suppose this morning I am even more amazed and sad considering this:

http://www.stevefossett.com/

There is now an open call for turbine powered helicopters to come in and handle the search.

Before I make the next statement I want everyone to again know I only found/joined this website to discuss one particular incident that I read occurred on this website during the search.

Given that the search has gone on now nearly two weeks, the above mentioned incident, and now the general call for turbine helicopters to augment the search, I think the CAP really needs to have a hard look, dissect what was available and how it was used early on,  do a top to bottom evaluation, and make some serious changes.

In addition there needs to be a review/action taken upon the "glory hound" and immature attitudes of some of the membership to either remove them or bring them up to a professional standard.  It seems to me that there are for more of these within the CAP than need be as evidenced during the Fossett search (and even displayed on this website during ongoing discussion).  To be fair, even at my company we have a program to handle these type people.

Lastly, and evaluation of what has gone on is an important part of the actual event.  This search has been for one man in a small airplane.  In the big scheme of things a small event.  If there were a big event, one that truly pulled the CAP to the maximum of its ability, there wouldn't be time to baby-sit the "rouge member" within.  After this search concludes is a perfect time to make some positive corrective actions.

[alamrcn]

Funny how half a dozen individuals' commentary can give you an impression of a 70,000 member organization.

Civilian Pilot:
   If you don't mind, tell us something you DEAPLY care about in your non-professional (job/career) life, other than your family, etc. We know that you are a pilot or at least involved in recreational aviation, so maybe you are a member of EAA or APA?
   I ask this, because I'm sure we can direct you to a website and/or public forum which has disgruntled and possibly negative people with commentaries and editorials of their own on that particular subject.

This forum is like the breakroom at work. If you eavesdrop in on a couple conversations, you are likely to hear a couple people gripping about their boss, their job, or their company. The internet just puts that somewhat personal discussion out on a bullhorn. In most cases, it's not meant to be destructive to anyone or anything - it's just human to blow off some steam.

Plus, humans love Drama and that's what brought you to our forum in the first place. I blame GOOGLE!

-Ace

[Civilian_Pilot]

Funny how half a dozen individuals' commentary can give you an impression of a 70,000 member organization.

Civilian Pilot:
   If you don't mind, tell us something you DEAPLY care about in your non-professional (job/career) life, other than your family, etc. We know that you are a pilot or at least involved in recreational aviation, so maybe you are a member of EAA or APA?
   I ask this, because I'm sure we can direct you to a website and/or public forum which has disgruntled and possibly negative people with commentaries and editorials of their own on that particular subject.

This forum is like the breakroom at work. If you eavesdrop in on a couple conversations, you are likely to hear a couple people gripping about their boss, their job, or their company. The internet just puts that somewhat personal discussion out on a bullhorn. In most cases, it's not meant to be destructive to anyone or anything - it's just human to blow off some steam.

Plus, humans love Drama and that's what brought you to our forum in the first place. I blame GOOGLE!

-Ace

I suppose what we don't agree on is that CAP shouldn't be viewed as a recreational vehicle when they are tasked with saving a human life.

So show me a website disgruntled with something I am involved in and I'll tell you they are opinions.

Here I am talking about decisions.

[Lancer]

I suppose what we don't agree on is that CAP shouldn't be viewed as a recreational vehicle when they are tasked with saving a human life.

So show me a website disgruntled with something I am involved in and I'll tell you they are opinions.

Here I am talking about decisions.

Ok Miss Othmar, are you done yet?

If you're going to continue on this diatribe, tirade, harangue, you should go here, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/capinsights/ and join with the rest of the Namby Pamby's who like to go on and on <insert broken record sound here>  about all the faults in the CAP.

I'm sure Ray Hayden will gladly receive you.

[Civilian_Pilot]

I suppose what we don't agree on is that CAP shouldn't be viewed as a recreational vehicle when they are tasked with saving a human life.

So show me a website disgruntled with something I am involved in and I'll tell you they are opinions.

Here I am talking about decisions.

Ok Miss Othmar, are you done yet?

If you're going to continue on this diatribe, tirade, harangue, you should go here, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/capinsights/ and join with the rest of the Namby Pamby's who like to go on and on <insert broken record sound here>  about all the faults in the CAP.

I'm sure Ray Hayden will gladly receive you.

I don't think there has been any of the above.  I've just tried to have a discussion.

You know, in case you are unaware the CAP is funded by me a taxpayer.  As such I help to foot the bill for all the expensive hardware it's your privilege to operate.

As a working pilot and potential search objective I have a stake in how CAP performs.

It is becoming clear to me that in general CAP members have the idea planted in their head somehow they are above everyone.

I am starting to think that the role/monies CAP receives would be better spent going to the military to fill the role CAP was created for.

I really wonder how the Founders of CAP would view the current attitudes.

[Lancer]

You know, in case you are unaware the CAP is funded by me a taxpayer.  As such I help to foot the bill for all the expensive hardware it's your privilege to operate.

And this makes you different from us how exactly?

As a working pilot and potential search objective I have a stake in how CAP performs.

I've only got one answer for that statement, JOIN and work towards improving what you see as a fault. Armchair Quarterbacking via an internet forum does nothing to improve the situation.

It is becoming clear to me that in general CAP members have the idea planted in their head somehow they are above everyone.

I won't disagree with you there. There are some folks within our organization that believe they are 'the poo', but I can almost guarantee your going to find that just about ANYWHERE!

I am starting to think that the role/monies CAP receives would be better spent going to the military to fill the role for CAP.

Right, after the countless lifesaving missions CAP has performed over the past 65 years, all the youth who have benefited from being a cadet and have moved on to become a Senior Member in our organization to be model citizens, lets just pull the plug now, end it all. That's logic for you.

If you did any research, CAP's budget for one year is a drop in the bucket compared with what the total budget the USAF spends, and the returns they receive on their investment in us is a deal no matter what you or anyone else says about us.

[SDF_Specialist]

It is becoming clear to me that in general CAP members have the idea planted in their head somehow they are above everyone.


I won't disagree with you there. There are some folks within our organization that believe they are 'the poo', but I can almost guarantee your going to find that just about ANYWHERE!

It seems that that is the case in that statement about being a taxpayer. All taxpayers pay a lot of salaries. Does this mean that the firefighters should put the fire out faster? Does this mean that since you pay the salaries of the police, you should not be reprimanded for breaking the law when a police officer pulls you over for speeding? I think not. Civilian_Pilot, why don't you take Lancer's advice? Join, and work in the efforts of correcting the faults of CAP? You seem to be concerned with how the organization is run, and that is the way some actual members feel. But if you don't like an organization, why get on a website that is crawling with its members, and bash it? I don't see the point. Nothing against you, but I'm just tired of everyone bashing CAP, but no one wants to help make it better. They just want to complain about the problems within the organization.