Enjoy Your Website

[Civilian_Pilot]

Enjoy your website because any serious discussion about the issues of SEARCH & RERSCUE is removed (Re:  Tom [last name redacted by admin --MK]).

Keep talking about your little badges and medals and how to wear a uniform.  It's a lot safer.

[SDF_Specialist]

Someone's not in a good mood

[Stonewall]

Hey dude, I don't know who you are or which side you're on, but if you have an issue with this site or with someone on this site, take it up with the folks in charge of the forum.

I read all the BS about the helo pilot getting the shaft, and I happen to agree that CAP's actions are embarrassing and lack professionalism any way you look at it.  In short, I agree with you.

I don't put you down for your hobbies and interests, don't put us down for ours.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Hey dude, I don't know who you are or which side you're on, but if you have an issue with this site or with someone on this site, take it up with the folks in charge of the forum.

I read all the BS about the helo pilot getting the shaft, and I happen to agree that CAP's actions are embarrassing and lack professionalism any way you look at it.  In short, I agree with you.

I don't put you down for your hobbies and interests, don't put us down for ours.

You are correct.  I was wrong.

I apologize for the above.  I will not edit it because I am accountable for what I said.  I really do not feel the way the above statement looks.  In fact I support the good people of CAP.

I said it in a moment of frustration over a ongoing professional discussion being removed because it was critical of CAP by the moderators.

It does appear to me that the CAP in general is so thin-skinned that it cannot take criticism or evaluation thus it is set to make the same mistakes over and over.

[SDF_Specialist]

Buddy, criticism comes with dedication. A momentary lapse of judgement can be forgiven. That seems to be the case here

[Eclipse]

It should also be noted that CAPTALK does not equal CAP.

There are many people here who are no longer / never were members, nor does anyone speak officially for the organization here.

[dwb]

*sigh*

Look, this forum is run by a couple of people who happen to be CAP members.  It's not CAP's forum.  Ergo, the owners of the site can pretty much do whatever they want.

Don't like it?

1. Make your own forum, and
2. Make it popular

I don't know what it is about Internet forums that causes them to constantly collapse into conversations about the forum itself, but it's sooo boring because it happens every week, and the initiator always thinks they're so clever and righteous.

"Oh, CAP is thin-skinned because the mean moderators won't let me waltz in uninvited and take a crap in their living room."

[Civilian_Pilot]

Thanks.

Although civilian I am highly involved in aviation and have been aware of the CAP for many years.  Overall I think it is a good organization although I am now coming to the conclusion that CAP has become so thin-skinned that it cannot take a critical discussion or criticism from an outside source.

It appears to me that when a high profile search happens and CAP gets a chance to practice what they have been trained to do, it has become a way to increase their place in the pecking order (and to be the hero).

Sometimes an organization becomes so ego-centric (and it's individuals) that it loses sight of the primary mission.  In this case SEARCH & RESCUE.  Remember:  somewhere beyond the Ops. desk is a person waiting to be rescued irregardless of the power games being played.

I came across this website while doing a search of the internet regarding the Fossett SAR.  In doing so I read the discussion of the helicopter pilot and how he was handled by a single person in CAP Ops.

As such this forum is my only window into that world and I am in utter shock at both how he was treated and the explanation given by the person responsable for what was done.

As a group you have to be aware that during a high profile search such as this that more people than myself will stumble onto this discussion forum.  The impression they leave with will probably be dictated by the individual instead of the group.  With opinions stated such as:  "Since none of you seem to have the courage to confront me directly, then I will say I really don't care how you feel about it. If you don't like me or my style, you are cordially invited to not participate in future events where I am involved"  I am certain many will turn their backs to the CAP.

In addition I also feel that the moderators of this forum by removing the discussion of the above have done a dis-service to the CAP community as a whole.  In training you look at actual situations, evaluate them, and then improve upon them.  Everything within the discussion was civil and constructive although critical of a CAP controlled event.

If the organization cannot allow such a discussion it will not be long before CAP becomes nothing but a hollow shell of what it set out to be.

[Eclipse]

Repeating now...

You are NOT talking to "CAP", you are on a public discussion forum about CAP.

There is a huge difference.

[Civilian_Pilot]

Repeating now...

You are NOT talking to "CAP", you are on a public discussion forum about CAP.

There is a huge difference.

Then why would a legitimate discussion (although critical of CAP) be deleted?

[Civilian_Pilot]

One thing I see as being a tenant of CAP is leadership.

Does effective leadership mean the only discussion are sunshine discussions?

[JC004]

MIKE, Pylon - please allow personal attacks so that the organization will not become a hallow shell of what it set out to be.  While we are at it, someone call Ray, so we can have personal attacks against TP, rather than discussions about the position of National Commander, etc.

[Civilian_Pilot]

MIKE, Pylon - please allow personal attacks so that the organization will not become a hallow shell of what it set out to be.  While we are at it, someone call Ray, so we can have personal attacks against TP, rather than discussions about the position of National Commander, etc.

There were no personal attacks.  Just an evaluation and opinion of the situation.

I am starting to see how immature personnel within CAP can really be.

[A.Member]

As was stated and you are obviously aware, this site is open to anyone willing to abide by the Code of Conduct (ie. you do not have to be a CAP member to participate in discussions here - you are evidence to that).  As such, do not take any comments here to be reflective of the official positions of CAP or it's membership as a whole.  That would be a mistake.

That said, you raise some valid points.  You will also see that others here shared your same concern, especially in the incident you referred to.  Spend some time with us and you will find that we are our own worst critics.  Part of this is a result of the significant number of caring people with exacting standards within the organization.  CAP strives to conduct itself with the utmost level of professionalism and integrity.  To a great extent, we do a very good job at this.  However, as with any organization, especially one of this size, issues and incidents arise.  In most cases, those incidents and issues are the exceptions and are not reflective of the broader organization.  I believe that to be the case here.

One last thought to leave you with...   We are an organization of volunteers - dedicated individuals with a common desire to serve our country and community.  In doing so we've made the conscious decision to take time away from our family and friends to serve others.  With that said, despite some of the peripheral discussions here, we never lose site of the mission and are very much aware of the person(s) in need.  This is not a game for us.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and hope that take the time to view the organization in a much broader sense than a few posts that you may read here.

(NOTE:  The information and opinions expressed by me on this site are mine alone. They do not constitute endorsement by the Civil Air Patrol or the United States Air Force.    )

[Civilian_Pilot]

One last thought to leave you with...   We are an organization of volunteers - dedicated individuals with a common desire to serve our country and community.  In doing so we've made the conscious decision to take time away from our family and friends to serve others.  With that said, despite some of the peripheral discussions here, we never lose site of the mission and are very much aware of the person(s) in need.  This is not a game for us.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and hope that you view the organization in a much broader sense than a few posts that you may read here.

(NOTE:  My post reflects my views only and not that of the Civil Air Patrol or the United States Air Force.    )

Thanks.  You are the most professional person in this thread.

I'll leave you with a thought also.

I have always known the CAP is made of volunteers.  The helicopter pilot cam in and volunteered.  By taking the time to register, comment, try to discuss this incident I took time out of my life also.

Why do I say this?  Because in our own way we all care enough to get involved.  I only took the time to start the deleted discussion because I cared enough to get involved and attempt to change the course of a destructive situation.  

I get the impression that by being critical of the CAP and a situation is forbidden as evidenced by the many immature attitudes/responses displayed here.  It is hard for me to believe individuals who cannot take criticism (even when not aimed at them or a situation they are involved in) can be a part of an organization important enough to be tasked with SEARCH & RESCUE.

Anyway-I'll check back in tonight.

[pixelwonk]

Look folks,  whether one is new here or not, the CoC will always apply.

Personal issues should be ideally left off the forum, or be taken to PM. 
Man up people.

[NIN]

<snip>
I get the impression that by being critical of the CAP and a situation is forbidden as evidenced by the many immature attitudes/responses displayed here.  It is hard for me to believe individuals who cannot take criticism (even when not aimed at them or a situation they are involved in) can be a part of an organization important enough to be tasked with SEARCH & RESCUE.

Anyway-I'll check back in tonight.

Just an FYI, since I run a fairly popular Internet forum for cadets: sometimes you move or mod certain topics not because they're critical of the  organization but more so to keep certain kinds of "online behavior" in check.    For example, we move topics into our "moderators" area, discuss them and then mod the topics in a way which keeps the gist of the topic, the important meat of the subject, and takes away the chaff.  Then we move the topic back into public view with guidance.

Some would say this is "prejudicial to free speech," but again, we're dealing with an online forum that is owned by private individuals other than the government.  We can run it any way we like, and we're not here to have a free-for-all of poor online behavior. We try to preserve the beneficial items (even if they are critical) and eliminate the bad behavior.

[Pylon]

Just an FYI, since I run a fairly popular Internet forum for cadets: sometimes you move or mod certain topics not because they're critical of the  organization but more so to keep certain kinds of "online behavior" in check.    For example, we move topics into our "moderators" area, discuss them and then mod the topics in a way which keeps the gist of the topic, the important meat of the subject, and takes away the chaff.  Then we move the topic back into public view with guidance.

Some would say this is "prejudicial to free speech," but again, we're dealing with an online forum that is owned by private individuals other than the government.  We can run it any way we like, and we're not here to have a free-for-all of poor online behavior. We try to preserve the beneficial items (even if they are critical) and eliminate the bad behavior.

The ever-so-eloquent NIN just described exactly what we have been doing with these topics.  People forget sometimes the site staff has day jobs on top of the hundreds of posts per day we get to read, review, and moderate.

We work as quickly as we can.  See also my response here.

[mikeylikey]

MIKE, Pylon - please allow personal attacks so that the organization will not become a hallow shell of what it set out to be.  While we are at it, someone call Ray, so we can have personal attacks against TP, rather than discussions about the position of National Commander, etc.

Oh don't worry.....Ray Hayden is floating around on here somewhere.  I have a few leads.....just baiting him very slowly!

[flyguy06]

So, I have been at National Guar dtraining last week. Somebody feel me in on what you guys are talking abaout. What's this about a helicopter pilot? And have they found Steve Fossett yet?