Air Force Discontinues Use of Base Decals

[ELTHunter]

As picked up in NOTF.  I had been told this about our local Air NG base, but this is the first I've seen it officially.

U.S. Air Force discontinues use of base decals
By Senior Master Sgt. Matt Proietti, USAF, Secretary of the Air Force Public Affairs
    U.S. Air Force officials are working with other services to allow its people to enter installations without requiring them to display a base decal on their vehicles.
    Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley recently ended use of the sticker, officially called a DD Form 2220, on Air Force installations due to cost, a lack of utility and long-term threats facing bases.
    The decal was developed in the 1970s as part of a vehicle registration and traffic management system, not to bolster security, said Col. William Sellers, the Air Force chief of force protection and operations for security forces. "There was a clear and definable need for this system (then)," he said. "A nationwide vehicle registration database did not exist, insurance was not required by all states and a process was needed to expedite vehicle entry onto installations."
    Air Force officials began questioning the value of the vehicle registration system in 2005 due to security concerns.
    Many people incorrectly viewed the decal as being designed to bolster security, Col. Sellers said. In actuality, the decal lessens it by identifying vehicles of airmen and civilian workers as potential terror targets and may lure gate guards into complacency.
    Laws now require motorists to have a legal driver's license issued by a state, proof of vehicle ownership/state registration, evidence of insurance, and safety and emissions inspections. A national vehicle registration system is used by all civilian and Military Police departments in the country.
    "We've been putting our own personnel through a process that simply duplicates state and federal mandatory requirements," Col. Sellers said.
    If a vehicle from a Navy base is parked illegally on an Army installation, the Military Police can't use its DD Form 2220 to track the owner because the two services don't share vehicle databases. Instead, the police will use the license plate number or vehicle identification number to obtain information via two national systems that provide comprehensive driver, vehicle data and access to law enforcement agency information, the colonel said.
    Security forces and gate guards now check the ID of each person entering an Air Force installation, Col. Sellers said. This provides better security than a base decal ever did because:
    -- The vehicle displaying it could have been sold with the decal on it;
    -- Its owner may have left the service and not removed the decal;
    -- The number on the decal could be duplicated;
    -- The decal could be counterfeited;
    -- The decal may have been removed from another vehicle, and;
    -- The vehicle may have been stolen.
    Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo., hasn't seen an increase in gate traffic since it stopped issuing base decals six months ago, said Master Sgt. James Osban, the NCO in charge of the 509th Security Forces Squadron's Police Services. "We're identifying the people coming on base and not the vehicle," he said. "We've done a 100 percent ID check for years."
    Air Force officials have asked other services to allow entry of its people to their installations by honoring their common access cards, appropriate identification or even by issuing them a DD Form 2220, which would enter them in another branch's database. In many cases, Air Force people visit other installations to shop.
    "That translates into dollars for their soldiers, sailors and Marines," Col. Sellers said. "Commanders want Air Force personnel on their bases."
    Some within the Defense Department feel the registration system still has utility, regardless of inherent weaknesses, Col. Sellers said. Installation commanders worried about the time it takes to access bases "need to face today's security challenges."
    "Using it puts the military in serious danger of losing credibility with its own personnel and the general public," Col. Sellers said. "The threat is here, it's real and we must continuously improve our processes and procedures."
    The military branches have spent millions on new entry points, but have failed to review the process of how they allow entry onto an installation, Col. Sellers said. "The strength of a redesigned gate is defeated if the process to enter is flawed," he said. "Our first line of defense becomes irrelevant. The priority is not expediting entry, but knowing who is entering."

[jimmydeanno]

Thank god!  What a pain in the but and useless program that was.  The government spending millions to check people have insurance...

I am in complete agreement with EVERY statement that was written in that article and look forward to peeling mine off shortly...

[afgeo4]

This shall make my entry onto Ft. Hamilton even more difficult. lol

[JohnKachenmeister]

I always like the eagles and stars on the cars next to the blue stickers for the high-ranking officers.  That way the terrorists know who's car to plant the bomb in.

[afgeo4]

I always like the eagles and stars on the cars next to the blue stickers for the high-ranking officers.  That way the terrorists know who's car to plant the bomb in.

I don't think they're discontinuing "flagging" military vehicles with Col and above.

[Duke Dillio]

I always like the eagles and stars on the cars next to the blue stickers for the high-ranking officers.  That way the terrorists know who's car to plant the bomb in.

I don't think they're discontinuing "flagging" military vehicles with Col and above.

I thought the generals liked to have the little flags fluttering when they went on a Sunday drive...

[Cecil DP]

The "Official" vehicles still have the flags, eagles, and Commander plates. The "personal" vechicles of O-6 and General/Flag officers had eagles and stars next to the base sticker.

[Duke Dillio]

I remember that part, but if you were a general, wouldn't you put one of those cool little flags on your personal vehicle?   

[mikeylikey]

Back to decals...........I am against getting rid of them.  Makes the lines longer.

[a2capt]

Most of the installations have stopped issuing CAP folks decals anyway, they used to commonly issue the 'green' one indicating gov't employee. Alot of that has been privatized and you have to pay $100/year for a CAC now, here on the Marine facilities in the west coast, for example. The lines have gotten longer, but it does vary.  All in all, it did make things smoother for weekly meetings at times. What it basically meant that the vehicle was verified to have been properly registered and insured, yes, a duplication of effort, but it was also a good indicator that someone is familiar with the facility, where they are going, etc.

Gotta do.. what you gotta do..

[Duke Dillio]

It has been my experience that post 9/11, every military facility that I have visited doesn't pay any attention to the decal at all.  When I went to the AFA about a year and a half ago, they sent me over to a different building, even though I was in CAP uniform with all credentials, and I had to get a little slip/day pass to put on my windshield to get onto the post.  I also had to have a sponsor assigned who would take responsibility for me being there.  In this case, I was picking up a new set of Class A's so they called the MCSS and one of the clerks accepted responsibility.  I understand security as well as anyone but this is getting almost too rediculous.  I think that's why a lot of CAP units have gone to off-post facilities.

[PHall]

In this case, I was picking up a new set of Class A's so they called the MCSS and one of the clerks accepted responsibility.

Well there's your problem, the Air Force doesn't have "Class A's". We have "Service Dress".
They probably thought you were an ill trained terrorist!

[Cecil DP]

I remember that part, but if you were a general, wouldn't you put one of those cool little flags on your personal vehicle?   

No, because the flag is an official issue that stays with the official car and when Gen Jones leaves the car the flag comes off or gets covered.

[Hawk200]

Back to decals...........I am against getting rid of them.  Makes the lines longer.

Doesn't make them any longer than they are now. ID is being checked at the gate whether you have a sticker or not. Why spend money on something that is no longer even looked at?

[Stonewall]

The DD 2220 is looked at and does serve a purpose.  I won't argue why I think we should keep them, but I will tell you how and why they are used.

On any given military installation there are as many as 200 people who have lost their driving privileges for one reason or another.  Call it DUI, too many traffic tickets, suspended licenses, uninsured vehicle or for some medical reason, they can't drive.  How do you identify these people as they attempt to come on base?  They don't have a decal.  That's how.  People who are not allowed to drive on base are not issued a decal or it is "scraped" by base police.  This does not mean they can't come on base, but rather, they can't drive on base.

Invalid registration tags.  As you know, you have to show proof of registration, insurance and a valid driver license to get a base decal.  If decals go away, anyone can drive any vehicle on base, regardless of a valid registration, insurance, or even a dern driver license.  Do you want to be hit by someone that doesn't have insurance?  Sure, you can register your vehicle and cancel your insurance the next day, but the likelihood of someone doing so is reduced.

Identification of a vehicle.  As part of an investigation from a traffic accident, stolen vehicle, or some other event involving a vehicle on base, the decal can be traced back to the person the decal was issued to.  Sure, someone can go register their vehicle then give the decal to another person, but when they get pulled over for a RAM (Random Anti-terrorism Measure) called an AVI ([Command] Authorized Vehicle Inspection) and caught with falsified information, not just one, but two different parties will feel the repricutions.

Plus, it adds one more level of defense.  A small one, but a level nonetheless.  It was said that a "bad guy" could easily make a fake decal.  Well, they could easily make a fake CAC or contractor ID card too.  But we aren't going to get rid of CACs are we?

As for Tango's IDing you because of your DOD decal, what about 3/4 of the military members that drive around with their DD214 plastered all over the back of their vehicles.  Heck, there's a guy in my area that I don't even know that has a CAP front license plate.  In Florida, there are vanity tags issued from DMV that have Paratroopers, one for each branch of the military, and veterans plates to boot.  Not to mention the Special Forces Association plate.  In Virginia, they have more military vanity plates than anyone.  In Reston, Virginia where I lived there was a Medal of Honor recipient driving around with his CMH plate and a USMC decal on the back. 

Can a bad guy ID you by your DOD decal?  Absolutely.  But chances are, they can ID you 5 other ways too.  Your haircut, tattoos, military decals on your POV, uniforms in your car, when you open your wallet and your CAC is right there for everyone to see, new guys out of basic with their dog tags hanging all over the place.  Is a DOD decal really that big of a deal?

Okay, so there.  How and why a DD Form 2220 (base decal) is used and a little extra.

Some bases, to include the two navy bases in Jacksonville, already have bar code scanners for selected personnel so there is no ID card to show.  It may help with traffic flow, but all you have to do is steal a car that has the bar code and drive right in.

[RiverAux]

I drive around every day with no guarantee that any other person on the road has a valid registration, drivers license, or insurance.  All are already required by state law.  Having the AF check these once a year, or however often they did it, doesn't guarantee that the person won't lose their license, have their plates expire, or drop their insurance the very next day.  I applaud them for recognizing and eliminating an unnecessary practice. 

[Stonewall]

I bet the number of motorists driving on a military base without registration, license or insurance is far lower than outside the installation.  I'm thinking it's partly due to the higher level of enforcement via the base decal.  I could be wrong, just sayin'.

[RiverAux]

I bet its due to the fact that if you get caught breaking driving rules on base it has a very direct impact on your career.  That usually isn't the case in the civilian world. 

[mikeylikey]

Back to decals...........I am against getting rid of them.  Makes the lines longer.

Doesn't make them any longer than they are now. ID is being checked at the gate whether you have a sticker or not. Why spend money on something that is no longer even looked at?

Well where I am at they have a "DoD decal line" and a "everyone else" line.  Now my line is being flooded with  "everyone" else, to include visitors and people who have to stop and ask the guard how to get where they are going.  BLAH

[Duke Dillio]

In this case, I was picking up a new set of Class A's so they called the MCSS and one of the clerks accepted responsibility.

Well there's your problem, the Air Force doesn't have "Class A's". We have "Service Dress".
They probably thought you were an ill trained terrorist!

I am an ill trained terrorist...  Whoa, did I say that out loud.  Man, I really am bad at this whole thing...

[jimmydeanno]

I bet the number of motorists driving on a military base without registration, license or insurance is far lower than outside the installation.  I'm thinking it's partly due to the higher level of enforcement via the base decal.  I could be wrong, just sayin'.

The likelyhood of someone driving on base unregistered is null.  They do not let you drive on base with an expired tag.  Inspection, yes, if it is an out of state.  My registration expires next month and their already reminding me that if it expires, I can't get on base.

Now, combine that with a state that REQUIRES insurance and your base sticker program is useless.

As was said in the article, there are plenty of cars for sale everywhere that have DoD decals on them that are still valid.  So what is the point if someone can buy the car and just drive on base?

Here and there they also ask to see my driver's license AND my ID.

[mikeylikey]

As was said in the article, there are plenty of cars for sale everywhere that have DoD decals on them that are still valid.

AND the seller should be HEAVILY penalized.  An official reprimand if still in the service, or a HUGE fine if the service member has been discharged.

[afgeo4]

As was said in the article, there are plenty of cars for sale everywhere that have DoD decals on them that are still valid.

AND the seller should be HEAVILY penalized.  An official reprimand if still in the service, or a HUGE fine if the service member has been discharged.

I'm not sure it's against the law to sell a vehicle with DoD sticker still on and not sure the person may be fined if he/she is now a civillian even it if is illegal. Remember, not all rules are laws.

[Hawk200]

Well where I am at they have a "DoD decal line" and a "everyone else" line.  Now my line is being flooded with  "everyone" else, to include visitors and people who have to stop and ask the guard how to get where they are going.  BLAH

That's an Air Force installation? It's only Air Force bases that are eliminating the decal, not anyplace else.

[Dustoff]

As was said in the article, there are plenty of cars for sale everywhere that have DoD decals on them that are still valid.

AND the seller should be HEAVILY penalized.  An official reprimand if still in the service, or a HUGE fine if the service member has been discharged.

I'm not sure it's against the law to sell a vehicle with DoD sticker still on and not sure the person may be fined if he/she is now a civillian even it if is illegal. Remember, not all rules are laws.

In the military, regulations (or instructions) can have the force of law.  Even if a member has been discharged, they can be reinstated (involuntarily) and are then subject to the UCMJ (can you say Leavenworth)

Now for a base decal that might be a bit extreme, but if it was YOUR former vehicle that the terrorist utilized I suspect that folks would be calling for YOUR head on a stick.   

Jim

[Dustoff]

And that decal is an accountable item, like a military ID card.  It is only issued to you while you are stationed there (wherever that is) and is supposed to be returned when you leave.  As I recall, turning in your decal is one of the items on the out-processing list. 

Jim

[mikeylikey]

Well....turned my AF issued Decal into Security Forces this afternoon.  No worries. I drove the five minutes over to the Air National Guard Base (which shares most of the same facilities as the AF-Reserve base) and re-registered my vehicle and guess what?  I got a brand new DOD Decal, and AF stickers to go along with it.  It seems from what was explained to me that, YES the AF is getting rid of base decals, but NO the Air National Guard is not.  So, when re-registering with the rent-a-cop at the air guard station, all he needed was my insurance card and CAC Card.  No actual vehicle registration paperwork was even done except for him scribbling the decal number down on a piece of paper next to my name.  No addresses, no phone numbers, no work or unit locations.  I did have to explain to him that the location sticker was to be blue (for Officers) not the red one (for junior enlisted) that he tried to give me.  What was he thinking.....trying to embarrass me like that. 

Good thing I got a new sticker, I start a weeklong trip to Wright-PATT and on through to Fort Sill next week.  I would have hated to get temporary passes at each location I stopped at for not having a DOD Decal.  Saved me some time!  I highly reccomend it to everyone to go get a Decal if you are loosing your AF issued ones!

[Becks]

Yeah this is old news that been kicked around for a while.  Pretty sure the 22-20s will still be around for a while.

[Grumpy]

I live just outside the gate to Pendleton and our squadron meets at an Army Reserve Bldg on Pendleton, talk about inter-service cooperation.  Anyway, Pendleton has us register our vehicles so I have my SNCO sticker on my window.  Should have seen the looks I'd get when they saw me wearing Major's leaves and I'd show them my DD Form 2 that said Master Sergeant.  I'd just tell them I was a "Sergeant Major" then have to explain about CAP.  Worked great for getting a conversation going and possibly recruiting some new senior members.

In August I went onto Vandenberg AFB and they scanned the back of my retired ID card before letting me on the facility.  Is that what is going to take the place of the decal?

I'd hate to be working that gate come shift change.

[flyguy06]

I am visiting Las vegas and went onto Nellis AFB with my rental car. I asked where I could go to get a guest pass and the guy said they didnt require one anymore. Then I read this article. Interesting. Thats the first I have heard of this.

[Stonewall]

The article back in what, March, that said the AF will no longer require decals starting in May and hoped other branches would follow their lead....

My ANG base still issues and requires decals.  The navy bases in Jacksonville has no intention of getting rid of decals.

Someone in my unit said the two army posts in the area aren't issuing decals anymore but I certainly haven't seen a lack of decals on vehicles.  If I were told it wasn't required anymore, I'd mine off.

[SAR-EMT1]

So my question is, will this make it easier or harder for CAP members to get on base?

In the past Ive seen (non prior service) CAP members with decals, (both Officer and Civilian)
Whether they needed them or just thought they looked good I dont know.
Then again I've read here on this forum of CAP members getting base ID cards. - Never seen one or heard of one elsewhere-

[Stonewall]

Up in National Capital Wing, non-military members of CAP had one helluva hassle getting on to Bolling AFB.  They'd give wing members decals, blue (officer) decals to boot.  But depending on who was guarding the gate, whether it be Army National Guard or AF Security Police, every entry was a different experience.  One time, the Chief of Staff as coming on base for a wing sponsored event at the officers club and couldn't bring his wife and daughter, a cadet, on because CAP members weren't allowed to sponsor people on. 

All this hassle, but drive 20 minutes into Maryland to Andrews AFB where they house Air Force One and they recognized CAP with no problem, allowing everyone from cadets driving themselves to parents coming to pick up cadets access.  They have contract guards at the gates at Andrews these days, which is a good idea if you ask me.  Whether contract guards know what they're doing or not is beyond me, but everywhere I've been from Andrews to Kings Bay Navy Sub Base, the guards have looked and acted professional.  They physically hold, look at, and confirm identity of each ID with every person in the car.  Since the government is probably paying something like $25  (wild guess) per guard, I'd say the security company doesn't want to screw it up.

[floridacyclist]

On any given military installation there are as many as 200 people who have lost their driving privileges for one reason or another.  Call it DUI, too many traffic tickets, suspended licenses, uninsured vehicle or for some medical reason, they can't drive.  How do you identify these people as they attempt to come on base?  They don't have a decal.  That's how.  People who are not allowed to drive on base are not issued a decal or it is "scraped" by base police.  This does not mean they can't come on base, but rather, they can't drive on base.

They take away their dependents' driving privileges too?

[Stonewall]

On any given military installation there are as many as 200 people who have lost their driving privileges for one reason or another.  Call it DUI, too many traffic tickets, suspended licenses, uninsured vehicle or for some medical reason, they can't drive.  How do you identify these people as they attempt to come on base?  They don't have a decal.  That's how.  People who are not allowed to drive on base are not issued a decal or it is "scraped" by base police.  This does not mean they can't come on base, but rather, they can't drive on base.

They take away their dependents' driving privileges too?

If it's a single sailor/soldier/airman, it's not a big deal, obviously they just scrape that of the military member/violator.  I've seen some bases that put an "S" or "D" on the decal that identify them as a spouse or dependent, so if you show them an active duty CAC card, it'll send up a flag.  Like any system, it's not 100% free of flaws or ways to circumvent the law, but it isn't uncommon to see spouses driving their husband to work due to this process.  In the military, as you know, we also have the power of the command.  It's not like you get a ticket, DUI, or arrested and your chain of command doesn't find out.  Get your driving privileges suspended on base and your first sergeant, chief, commander learn that you're driving anyway, and you should get reprimanded.

[Grumpy]

I had an incident with the Coast Guard.  Doing a motorcycle trip along the California Coast a buddy of mine (at that time a Coast Guard Res Lt jg) tried to stay in the family camping area.  On day shift, we came aboard and paid our bucks at MWR for a camp site and set up our camp.  We Left base to get dinner in town and came back later that evening.  Because I didn't have a DOD sticker on my bike he refused to let us in.  I had everything else you need but they wouldn't let me have a visitor's pass.

When we pushed the issue telling them that we'd been already been let on, paid our money and had a camp set up, they called the OD and some CWO investigator out and made a big deal of it.  They finally let escorted us to our camp site.  The next morning they got us out of the sack, escorted us to the OD and held us for three hours while they put my buddy through an interrogation.  (They wouldn't talk to me, I was retired enlisted swine).

Not only that but my buddy was an Active Duty Highway Patrol Sergeant and I was a  active Deputy Sheriff, not like we were terrorist you know.  I'm just glad that on that trip we didn't have our weapons with us, we'd still be in confinement.

I've found that if it ain't written in black and white and heaven help me if there is a gray area because they can't make a decision.  But God bless them, if it's combat they're right there and I wouldn't want some other country's military protecting us.

[Eclipse]

I had an incident with the Coast Guard. 

Every base I've been on has required that every vehicle that gets in has some kind of decal or day pass.

They were probably just as concerned as to how yo got on at all, unnoticed.   The hassle after head cooled, though was silly.

Were these civilian contractors or Military people.   We've foudn the majority of our "issues" are when a civilian gets in between us and the RealMilitary®.

[Grumpy]

No, they were military.  Just idiots.  Like I said, we both had military ID, insurance, registration, the whole bit.  It went up to higher headquarters and when my friend got back he had to explain again but nothing ever came of it.  He retired a Lt Cmdr and as a sergeant from the CHP.

We were mostly concerned that the MWR took our money and our gear was on base and we weren't.

[mikeylikey]

All this hassle, but drive 20 minutes into Maryland to Andrews AFB where they house Air Force One and they recognized CAP with no problem, allowing everyone from cadets driving themselves to parents coming to pick up cadets access. 

HAhah......1997-98 there was a guy named Jeff Klotz.  He was a CAP member and a PRETEND Air Force Reservist.  He made his own ID cards, his own orders and had himself assigned to the unit that worked on Air Force One.  He even promoted himself from AF Captain to Major and had a promotion party at the O-Club.  He was caught after he took vehicles from Andrews and weapons from Mead for the PAWG Summer Encampment.  He spent 6 months in Federal Prison.  I think if he would have done all that after 9/11 he would be rotting away for life in Guantanamo.

OK AF......lets not learn from your mistakes.

[Grumpy]

Egad, I hope this DD Form 2AF is real.  It was issued to me at Camp Pendleton you know.

[Stonewall]

All this hassle, but drive 20 minutes into Maryland to Andrews AFB where they house Air Force One and they recognized CAP with no problem, allowing everyone from cadets driving themselves to parents coming to pick up cadets access. 

HAhah......1997-98 there was a guy named Jeff Klotz.  He was a CAP member and a PRETEND Air Force Reservist.  He made his own ID cards, his own orders and had himself assigned to the unit that worked on Air Force One.  He even promoted himself from AF Captain to Major and had a promotion party at the O-Club.  He was caught after he took vehicles from Andrews and weapons from Mead for the PAWG Summer Encampment.  He spent 6 months in Federal Prison.  I think if he would have done all that after 9/11 he would be rotting away for life in Guantanamo.

OK AF......lets not learn from your mistakes.

I remember that.  Ft. Indiantown Gap was involved, right?  Is that where the PAWG encampment was or something?  I was in the Army Guard at the time and FIG is where we did NCO schools.  Someone knew I was in CAP and talked about it, I laughed.

[mikeylikey]

You got it right Kirt.  The FBI and CID came and shut down the Garrison for a month at "the GAP" when Klotz was able to draw more weapons and ammo from both the PA NG, and the Active Army that was there at the time.  It was so huge, because a lot of the Ammo went unused, and then was "unaccounted" for along with various other "junk". 

[SAR-EMT1]

Ok, so discussion of Mr Koltz aside [idiot] (how in the HECK do you fake a military ID? If he was REALLY SMART he'd have weaseled his way into the payroll )  Should CAP members make some effort to procure a base ID or a sticker from an Army post or anything?

How will the change affect us?

[jimmydeanno]

I really don't understand why "you people" have such hard times getting onto Military Installations.  There is no reason for us to need to "procure" military IDs or base stickers at all - it doesn't make things any easier or harder.  What I think the issue is?  How you are presenting yourselves.

As a CAP member, showing only CAP ID and Driver's license, I have NEVER had to get day passes or been searched at the gates or even questioned as to what I was doing on the installation. These include bases such as Langley AFB, Norfolk Naval Station, Fort Eustis, Pensacola NAS, Wright Patterson AFB, Keesler AFB, Lackland AFB, Fort Pickett, Westover AFB, Oceana NAS, Camp Pendleton, Andrews AFB, Bolling AFB, Hanscomb AFB, Pease ANGB, etc.

I did have a member, once, have to get called into the SF desk because the SF airman was new, but the desk just said yep, CAP is allowed to come on base.

If you meet on a military installation or there is a squadron there, there should be a relationship with SF.  We have vistors all the time to our squadron, heck, we had a large number of people who weren't even CAP members able to get on base with their driver's license because we talked to SF beforehand and have a good relationship with them.  They understand what/who we are.

The worst that happens is they make you get a day pass - big deal, I'm sorry that takes precedence over your ability to shop at the the MCSS...next thing we know, CAP members will be demanding the red carpet gets rolled out on the TARMAC for CAP Wing CCs...AAARG!

/*rant

[mikeylikey]

Ok, so discussion of Mr Koltz aside [idiot] (how in the HECK do you fake a military ID? If he was REALLY SMART he'd have weaseled his way into the payroll )  Should CAP members make some effort to procure a base ID or a sticker from an Army post or anything?

How will the change affect us?

Had a conversation with a DEERS employee today.  She said that there is a new memo out from their HQ, that the AF is getting rid of base specific ID CARDS and all civilians, to include CAP members will get a CAC that says "Civilian", no branch given, and on the front will have the activities the person is prohibited from using (such as Commissary, PX etc.)  This will make base access uniform for those individuals that need access, but are not military, not Appropriated or Non-Appropriated Fund Employees.  We should see the CAC issued card within 1 year.   

Then I heard a rumor from a very reliable source that said the AF approached CAP and offered them the CAC 2 years ago, and TP turned them down.  I need to do more research on that item, but I am moving toward believing it.

[Al Sayre]

How is that going to work when you have an MSA?

[Stonewall]

I really don't understand why "you people" have such hard times getting onto Military Installations.  There is no reason for us to need to "procure" military IDs or base stickers at all - it doesn't make things any easier or harder.  What I think the issue is?  How you are presenting yourselves.

As a CAP member, showing only CAP ID and Driver's license, I have NEVER had to get day passes or been searched at the gates or even questioned as to what I was doing on the installation. These include bases such as Langley AFB, Norfolk Naval Station, Fort Eustis, Pensacola NAS, Wright Patterson AFB, Keesler AFB, Lackland AFB, Fort Pickett, Westover AFB, Oceana NAS, Camp Pendleton, Andrews AFB, Bolling AFB, Hanscomb AFB, Pease ANGB, etc.

I did have a member, once, have to get called into the SF desk because the SF airman was new, but the desk just said yep, CAP is allowed to come on base.

If you meet on a military installation or there is a squadron there, there should be a relationship with SF.  We have vistors all the time to our squadron, heck, we had a large number of people who weren't even CAP members able to get on base with their driver's license because we talked to SF beforehand and have a good relationship with them.  They understand what/who we are.

The worst that happens is they make you get a day pass - big deal, I'm sorry that takes precedence over your ability to shop at the the MCSS...next thing we know, CAP members will be demanding the red carpet gets rolled out on the TARMAC for CAP Wing CCs...AAARG!

/*rant

Dern it, something happened and my post got deleted.  Grrrr...  Will post after dinner.

[mikeylikey]

I really don't understand why "you people" have such hard times getting onto Military Installations.  There is no reason for us to need to "procure" military IDs or base stickers at all - it doesn't make things any easier or harder.  What I think the issue is?  How you are presenting yourselves.

As a CAP member, showing only CAP ID and Driver's license, I have NEVER had to get day passes or been searched at the gates or even questioned as to what I was doing on the installation. These include bases such as Langley AFB, Norfolk Naval Station, Fort Eustis, Pensacola NAS, Wright Patterson AFB, Keesler AFB, Lackland AFB, Fort Pickett, Westover AFB, Oceana NAS, Camp Pendleton, Andrews AFB, Bolling AFB, Hanscomb AFB, Pease ANGB, etc.

Well you are lucky then!  As far as letting visitors on post/base to you squadron, without any registration on their part at the gate, is a violation of the services rules governing access.  So now, a TERRORIST knows that all he or sh has to do is say "I am going to visit the CAP SQD", they can get on post.  Thanks! 

The way you present yourself only goes so far as to getting on post.  There are rules, and in your case, those installations seem to be very lax on the rules.  I guess it will just take more FT DIX incidents (perhaps in your area) to get the security "gears" moving again.  I have noticed most installations have even done away with vehicle searches that were so common place after 9/11.

Hell.....I have a decal on my car, am in uniform and have a DOD ID Card, and get the third degree at most places I go.

[PHall]

Hell.....I have a decal on my car, am in uniform and have a DOD ID Card, and get the third degree at most places I go.

Must be your attitude or something because I have a decal, a DOD ID card and have been in uniform and have had absolutely no problems at all. And this is with multiple Army, Air Force, Marine Corps, Navy and Guard/Reserve Bases.

Being professional with them usually results in them being professional with you.

[mikeylikey]

Hell.....I have a decal on my car, am in uniform and have a DOD ID Card, and get the third degree at most places I go.

Must be your attitude or something because I have a decal, a DOD ID card and have been in uniform and have had absolutely no problems at all. And this is with multiple Army, Air Force, Marine Corps, Navy and Guard/Reserve Bases.

Being professional with them usually results in them being professional with you.

I am a professional and act in a professional manner.  I say "good morning, good afternoon, good evening, how are you SGT, nice day...etc....".  I usually get a pleasant response from the enlisted guys (not so much from senior NCO's), but usually get a crappy response and attitude from the Civilian Gate Guards.  Almost like they don't like their job or something.  Hell.....I even return the salute from the enlisted guys after they see my ID, there are some Officers that just snatch the ID card back and drive away.

[Eclipse]

I usually get a pleasant response from the enlisted guys (not so much from senior NCO's), but usually get a crappy response and attitude from the Civilian Gate Guards. 

This has been our experience as well - basically whenever we deal with someone in a military uniform, things go smoothly and straightforward - that doesn't mean we always get what we want, but we get straight answers and no BS.

As soon as we get a civilian in between us and the military, that's when things go South.

In their semi-defense, things can get pretty muddled with regards to who has responsibility and jurisdiction.  You've got DOD security, SP's, at least two different
civilian security contractors depending on which building you go into, not to mention the local PD patrolling the streets you have to cross between some parts of the base. And those civilians are probably not buying summer homes with their salary.

When the base converted to mostly civilians on the gates, their courtesies were non-existent (as expected).  Word has it that someone with LOTS of stars came through a gate with a slouched / slacker greeting.

Since then, when the civilian guards see a blue bar, they all snap to attention and salute until returned or the vehicle leaves.

[JCJ]

I do not have a CAC, DOD vehicle sticker or other DOD credentials.  I do have our new CAP photo ID.  Before I got the new photo ID, I had the old CAP photo ID (CAPF 19) and membership card & state DL.  Got sent to the visitor's center > 50% of the time.

Since I have the new photo ID, I've been waved straight through on base every time.  This is at an AFB and at a JRB (I go to both on various occasions).

The bottom line is that you can enter the base if the Base CC or designee allows (usually the case when there is a regular CAP presence on base) - and if so, the new CAP photo ID seems to work well.  I also agree that how you present yourself (pleasant & professional demeanor, professional military appearance) has alot to do with how smooth the process goes.

One other thing to know, if the base (real world) force protection condition is significantly elevated, as civilians our base access may be restricted (unless there are special arrangements with your local SF squadron).  Something to think about when considering basing critical CAP ES infrastructure or facilities on military bases.

[Stonewall]

I really don't understand why "you people" have such hard times getting onto Military Installations.  There is no reason for us to need to "procure" military IDs or base stickers at all - it doesn't make things any easier or harder.  What I think the issue is?  How you are presenting yourselves.

As a CAP member, showing only CAP ID and Driver's license, I have NEVER had to get day passes or been searched at the gates or even questioned as to what I was doing on the installation. These include bases such as Langley AFB, Norfolk Naval Station, Fort Eustis, Pensacola NAS, Wright Patterson AFB, Keesler AFB, Lackland AFB, Fort Pickett, Westover AFB, Oceana NAS, Camp Pendleton, Andrews AFB, Bolling AFB, Hanscomb AFB, Pease ANGB, etc.

Personally, I've never had an issue because I've always been a card carrying member of the military.  But for some of the CAP folks, it's been a roller coaster.

You mention that you had no problem at Bolling AFB.  Aren't you a dependent?  Don't you have a decal and ID card?  I've been going to Bolling since 1992 and up until 9/11, our CAP members had zero problem.  No decals necessary, just a CAP ID and DL and you'd be granted access.  Post 9/11 on the other hand, like I said, a roller coater.  If you're one of the folks that has been to Bolling a few times, not every week for a few years, then you may have gotten lucky.  For those of us that go (or went) regularly, it would change almost weekly.  Our Wing HQ is on Bolling as well as a local squadron.  You'd think they'd have it squared away.  We've gone from zero accessability, to having our names on a list, to base IDs with decals, to having to register every time, having the LO/LNCO call down 15 min prior to our arrival, having the LO/LNCO send a list of who is coming on meeting nights and of course, the casual wave in because there are no issues at that moment in time.  It has also varied when the Army Guard showed up for base security compared to having the regular SF folks there. 

As for Andrews, I've never heard of a single problem with CAPers getting on base.  After 9/11, a CAP member was a full time SFer there and I think he go things squared away real quick like.  When they went to contract guards, again, I don't recall a single issue.  I've brought van loads of cadets onto Andrews and I've had cadets' parents drive them on without a hiccup.

Ft. Belvoir/Davison AAF, not bad at all.  DAAF is where the squadron meets and that's where the wing has their 2 aircraft.  We had been there for years, like 20 years, so there was never an issue.  After 9/11, we just reminded the MPs we had cadets/seniors coming in and they should have a CAP ID card.  Or, there may be parents coming in who won't have any military or CAP ID.  No problem.  But to get onto Ft. Belvoir proper, it fluctuated a bit when the transfered entry point security over to contract guards.  After a few weeks and couple of meetings, it was cleared up.

Ft. Pickett, no problem, like you said.

Ft. AP Hill, we only trained there a couple times a year, so when we did, we had advanced notification with a list of names and SSNs, plus a leader's recon and advance party to smooth the skids.  Even if CAP members who weren't on the list showed up, they'd be cleared to come on.

At Mayport Naval Station, they don't have a clue as to who CAP is for the most part.  Even though we shut off ELTs there regularly, there isn't enough CAP activity to have all the security folks recognize a 14 year old's parents driving them on base to buy BDUs.  If it's a new seaman, chances are they'll just let them on.  If it's a petty officer, they may give them a hard time and be told to get a visitors pass.

I will agree with your point about presenting yourself appropriately.  If you show up in a military uniform (not BBDUs) and groomed properly, you'll probably experience less friction.  But try showing up with a full beard, donut juice on your shirt and dandruff all over the place, and yeah, you'll probably be sent to the visitors shack.

So while one person on one day gets right in, the next person on the next day may get hassled.  I've seen in both ways.  And Jimmy, at least for the past few years, you've been a dependent with a decal, so of course you didn't have a problem getting on base.

[jimmydeanno]

Aren't you a dependent?  Don't you have a decal and ID card?...   And Jimmy, at least for the past few years, you've been a dependent with a decal, so of course you didn't have a problem getting on base.

Yes, I am a dependent, and for a few of those years I didn't have a base decal on my vehicle since my wife's name wasn't on the registration it was a no go.  Also, I don't use my dep ID to get on base when acting as a CAP member -ever- I figure it only helps to build famililiarity with the CAPID cards and helps build awareness. 

Even WIWAC there wasn't any problem with getting on base with a CAPID (pre-9/11) and without a decal (post-911) haven't had any problems.  I have had more 'random vehicle searches' when using my dependent ID (20-25) than a CAP one (0).

...If you show up in a military uniform (not BBDUs) and groomed properly, you'll probably experience less friction.  But try showing up with a full beard, donut juice on your shirt and dandruff all over the place, and yeah, you'll probably be sent to the visitors shack.

Good point.

All I can really speak for is my experiences and what I've witnessed, but I don't think that having a Civilian CAC card or base decals for CAP members will really accomplish what people think it will.  Just another ID to haul around - especially without a "CAP" listed on it.  CAC card for the gate, CAP ID for the MCSS, etc.  Too many hurdles - if you meet on a base, establish a rappor with the SF team, get friendly with the base commander - that is what makes things easier for CAPers. 

I just don't see the need for us to need all the "accessories" when most members visit military installations perhaps once or twice a year.  I also think that those that get bent out of shape for having to get a day pass for those visits need to get over themselves, but that's just MHO.

Mikey: I hardly think that my comment is going to lead to the downfall of western civilization.

[Stonewall]

Even WIWAC there wasn't any problem with getting on base with a CAPID (pre-9/11) and without a decal (post-911) haven't had any problems.  I have had more 'random vehicle searches' when using my dependent ID (20-25) than a CAP one (0).

I've been driving for 18 years now.  I'm a Navy brat so for my first 2 years of driving I went to the Navy base regularly.  Since then, I've been in the Army, Army National Guard and now the Air National Guard.  I have always been in and around military installations, before and after 9/11.  In the DC area, I averaged about 3 trips a week to either Ft. Myer, Bolling AFB, Andrews, Quantico, or Ft. Belvoir.  Never, ever, in 18 years of driving, have I been stopped for a ramdon vehicle inspection.  For you to have had 20 to 25 blows my mind.

I just don't see the need for us to need all the "accessories" when most members visit military installations perhaps once or twice a year.  I also think that those that get bent out of shape for having to get a day pass for those visits need to get over themselves, but that's just MHO.

First, I don't think anyone is caught up in themselves.  While your experiences may be that of hassle free, I know several level headed, chilled out, non-confrontational professional CAP types who have bent over backwards to comform to whatever security practice a base is doing that particular day, and when you go on base one or two times a week, then yes, it can become a hassle, and yes, people do get a little discouraged from doing CAP stuff when it becomes more work than it's worth.  The Wing Chief of Staff for NATCAP, at one point, refused to go to weekly meetings because he'd spend 10 hours at work, go home, eat dinner with his family, and attempt to do his "job" at wing only to be put through the wringer for 20 minutes trying to get on base.   When you're spending between 20 and 30 minutes to get a pass so you can go to wing headquarters when, just the week before, they let you on with your DL and CAP ID, it gets pretty dern frustrating.

It is not up to us, CAP.  It is up to each and every base.  There is no set standard from base to base.  Ft. Belvoir may be the most CAP friendly, an Army post.  But an AF Base down the road may be a huge hassle.  People actually stopped going to wing headquarters because of the hassle it was to get on base.  For a while, we fixed the problem ourselves.  The Navy base that is connected to Bolling has a gate too, protected by DOD police.  You can access Bolling from the Navy side, no problem.  So when the Navy let us on anytime we wanted, we just went that route.  But of course, the Air Force got pi$$ed off because CAP found a loophole in their security.

[jimmydeanno]

I can agree with that, however, if your wing HQ is on the base, why is there such an issue?  Don't they see CAPIDs all the time?  Even if they make you get base passes, why is there such a run-around getting them? 

[Stonewall]

I wish I had an answer for you.  You'd think it would be that easy.

[mikeylikey]

I can agree with that, however, if your wing HQ is on the base, why is there such an issue?  Don't they see CAPIDs all the time?  Even if they make you get base passes, why is there such a run-around getting them? 

Because standing in a line for a half an hour, to go to weekly meeting is insane.  My problem, is the guy cutting the grass or the person who is a federal prison work-release dude (in prison for selling crack and meth) can get ID card, that gets them waived right past the gate.  When CAP (who go on base to perform "missions for America", can't get one because we somehow are more of a risk.

[Grumpy]

Mikey,

I believe what Stonewall is asking is why is the AF giving us such a hassle? Not why are we making such a fuss?

[mikeylikey]

^ Gotcha, my mistake.  I have no reasonable reason why the AF is giving us a hard time.

[Skyray]

^ Gotcha, my mistake.  I have no reasonable reason why the AF is giving us a hard time.

I have several, but I am beginning to sound like a broken record.  Disregard of base rules because of an arrogant attitude on the part of some CAP members has a lot to do with it.

[davedove]

^ Gotcha, my mistake.  I have no reasonable reason why the AF is giving us a hard time.

I have several, but I am beginning to sound like a broken record.  Disregard of base rules because of an arrogant attitude on the part of some CAP members has a lot to do with it.

I would bet that happens a lot.  A CAP member comes up to the gate with the attitude of "You have to let me on post.  I'm a member of the Civil Air Patrol."  The gate guard doesn't "have" to let anyone enter.

That remind me of a joke from Reader's Digest.

An Admiral is being driven through the gate at a Navy base.  A young Marine is guarding the gate.
Marine:  I need to see your ID, Sir.
Admiral:  Can't you see I'm an Admiral.  Just let me through.
M:  I'm sorry, Sir.  I have to check everyone's ID.
A:  I don't have time for this.  I'm on my way to an important meeting.  Let me through.
M (drawing his sidearm and pointing it at the car):  Sir, I'm unsure of the exact procedure here.  Do I shoot you or the driver first?

The Admiral produces his ID.

[Skyray]

Reminds me of my favorite mine is bigger than yours joke.  Admiral Dunghaven is aboard the USS Enterprise steaming North along the Jersey Shore when the Captain sees a light holding a constant bearing Northwest of them (implies a collision course).  The Captain radios "unidentified vessel Southeast of Tom's River, New Jersey, you are on a collision course with a United States vessel of war.  Alter your course."  Back comes the answer, "you alter your course."  This sets Admiral Dunghaven off, and he grabs the radio and says, "This is Admiral Dunghaven aboard the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise.  You will immediately alter course."  Which elicits the answer, "This is Barnegat Light, Admiral, Your call."

[Stonewall]

Mikey,

I believe what Stonewall is asking is why is the AF giving us such a hassle? Not why are we making such a fuss?

^ Gotcha, my mistake.  I have no reasonable reason why the AF is giving us a hard time.

I'm not saying "the Air Force" per se, but Bolling AFB.  I can say with confidence that the folks that would normally have the you better let me on your base attitude, are folks that already had the privilege of being on base, i.e. they're dependents or retired military.  Everyone else are very professional, have good attitudes, respect the security precautions and don't flaunt their CAP rank or status. 

Anyway, I don't live there anymore and haven't been on Bolling for more than a year. 

[Eclipse]

It only takes one of us, having a bad day, to encounter the wrong person on base, also having a bad day, to nix things for all of us.

We all need to comport ourselves at all times as if we carry the reputation of the entire organization on our backs - because we do.

[afgeo4]

Mikey,

I believe what Stonewall is asking is why is the AF giving us such a hassle? Not why are we making such a fuss?

^ Gotcha, my mistake.  I have no reasonable reason why the AF is giving us a hard time.

I'm not saying "the Air Force" per se, but Bolling AFB.  I can say with confidence that the folks that would normally have the you better let me on your base attitude, are folks that already had the privilege of being on base, i.e. they're dependents or retired military.  Everyone else are very professional, have good attitudes, respect the security precautions and don't flaunt their CAP rank or status. 

Anyway, I don't live there anymore and haven't been on Bolling for more than a year. 

Even dependents and retired personnel are subject to be turned away at the base gate. Who is allowed on base is up to the base commander and only base commander.