Unit Names Too Long Etc?

[Eclipse]

Sixth region 1st charter (or something to that effect)...

[SKI304]

The numbers on the wing patches stand for #Army Corps Area/Army Service Command, # State.  So, for example, in Ohio we have 51 on our wing patch.  That translates to 5th Army Service Command, 1st State.

Here's an article from the National Historian detailing all the intricacies of the Charter Numbers:
http://incountry.us/cappatches/library/art-pres/hn-number.pdf

[a2capt]

..and the bit about 25000 and National ... when NHQ was at Ellington, and ended up at Maxwell,  which is in 01000, so thats why they moved there ;-) (I know, their number is the highest, just now situated amongst the lowest)

[BillB]

The numbers for Wings was based on Army Air Corp Districts. For example 4 was for the Southeast AAC Region. Thus Floridas Wing number started with 4. The second number was for a state in the District. Florida became 4-1. There were eight AAC Regions, CAP still follows those eight Regions.  I have no clue as to how the state number was assigned. My original Cadet Serial Number was 41-320, and the Senior number 4-1-5716. The dash between region and wing number showed Senior membership. Without the dash, showed Cadet membership.

[SarDragon]

OK, I got 50, 51, and 52 twisted about. The article explains it all.

[Eagle400]

I think your questions have already been asked and answered already cadet I need not say more.

Well, not anymore unfortunately.  Sorry if I didn't clarify this.  Not hard to imagine.    

Joined at 12 (Sept '98) and left in September '06. 
(Could've done the full 9, but was saying things that make way too much sense).

So I forced myself out, with full 201 File copies in hand.  May rejoin soon though. 
(Not worried about politics anymore either... CAP is but a wee sampling of crud going on at much, much higher levels). 

Work in D.C.?  I'm sorry; Praying for ya! 



Now then...

Okay, so Wing numbers --as primary identifiers-- will probably never happen. 

But can they at least go on all the Wing patches? 
(Some are already, as with Michigan and Ohio...)     

[SarDragon]

The numbers on the current patches are mostly from the original numbering system, and would have no correspondence to the most recent system.

But then, why do we need numbers? NHQ seems to think otherwise, having changed away from numbers about ten years ago. Why do we need them on the optional wing patches? Are you a Vanguard pawn? Are you going to pay for all the new patches?

[mynetdude]

what does it matter if you did 9 or 10 years??? I can't disagree in some of your comment about politics but that does not mean I will bad mouth anyone despite the politics.

I also agree, why change the patches to put numbers unless you are willing to front the costs of doing so?

[Dragon 3-2]

Commercialization? Any objections to naming a unit "Boeing Cadet Squadron XX" if the donation was big enough?

NJWG has a Curtiss Wright Composite

[JC004]

CHANGE THE WING PATCHES?!  Who is going to memorize all 52 numerical identifiers?!

[jimmydeanno]

CHANGE THE WING PATCHES?!  Who is going to memorize all 52 numerical identifiers?!

You know that it would become some sort of standard promotion criteria in some units for cadets that want to earn their Curry.

"Oooh.  I'm sorry, you mixed up Missouri and Rhode Island."

Then, everyone that didn't memorize them would be seen as inferior by the small group that decided to do it and they'd claim they were more CAP orthodox than the rest of us.

[Eagle400]

Alright, I'll drop it. 

Apparently some folks can't handle the thought of adding a few extra lines of thread, to a piece of embroidery about 3 inches in diameter. 

Wow. 

[lordmonar]

Alright, I'll just drop it. 

Apparently some folks can't handle the thought of adding a few extra lines of thread, to a piece of embroidery about 3 inches in diameter. 

Wow.

It is not that....it is the cost involved.

A few lines of threads means a whole new run of patches at a cost of about 3$ each, times the number of people in the wing (In Nevada that would be around $1600+).

To add a number that has no meaning what so ever to anyone.

Like I said....I too don't like the "Homer J. Simpson, Drinks Way Too Much Memorial Composite Squadrons"....but I am not going to say everyone has to change to just meet my idea of what would be a "good thing".

[Eagle400]

Ah, I failed to factor this in.  Thank you for helping me catch this, sir. 


So back to original position; perhaps I can help this along without offending anyone?

Simply changing the names of Wings to numbers, would be far more cost-effective.  I think we can all agree on this point.
 

But why?

It puts CAP closer in line with the AF, and there's really nothing for CAP to lose by doing so.

In other words, it would very likely be a win-win situation. 

Also a potential boost to morale too, and perhaps even better recruitment potential.  "Welcome to 51st Wing, Civil Air Patrol, U.S. Air Force Auxiliary", instead of just "Welcome to Ohio Wing."


Also...

"51st" wing will jive with 'CAP-unfamiliar' AF personnel way more than "Ohio Wing"... because the nomenclature is so radically different. 

"Ohio Wing, what's that?  Did you mean to say simply, Ohio Civil Air Patrol?"


But again... Just to reiterate... Got nothing to lose by doing this, and puts CAP closer in line with the Parent Organization.

[davidsinn]

Simply changing the names of Wings to numbers, would be far more cost-effective.  I think we can all agree on this point.

No we don't. You would have to change every wing patch. Every letterhead. Every reg. and pam. and form that mentions the name of the wing. That is not cost effective. 

It puts CAP closer in line with the AF, and there's really nothing for CAP to lose by doing so.

$$$$$ and time

In other words, it would very likely be a win-win situation. 

Or not.

Also a potential boost to morale too, and perhaps even better recruitment potential.  "Welcome to 51st Wing, Civil Air Patrol, U.S. Air Force Auxiliary", instead of just "Welcome to Ohio Wing."

Possibly, but is it a problem?

Also...

"51st" wing will jive with 'CAP-unfamiliar' AF personnel way more than "Ohio Wing"... because the nomenclature is so radically different. 

"Ohio Wing, what's that?  Did you mean to say simply, Ohio Civil Air Patrol?"

This is actually a problem but usually more with reporters that can't write what we say.

But again... Just to reiterate... Got nothing to lose by doing this, and puts CAP closer in line with the Parent Organization.

We have a lot of time and money to lose changing everything for little to no gain.

[lordmonar]

CCSE....I think you missed my point competely.

Changing wing names woud NOT be cost effective.

All the time and money spent would NOT fix any problems.

Nevada Wing, Califonia Wing make sense to both the USAF and outside agencies.

Yes 29th Wing would sound more Air Forceish.....but your average USAF guy would still say "who's that" just as often (if not more) then they do now.

Again numbering our lower units would again make us sound more like USAF units but again would not help with recognistion.

I like over all the geographical naming convention.

Pacific Region, Nevada Wing, Clark County Squadron.

If you got groups.....Pacific Region, California Wing, Souther Group, San Diego Squadron.

Easy pleasey.  At least the names tell you something about the squadron.

[Eclipse]

We have a lot of time and money to lose changing everything for little to no gain.

Yep - figure...

~$ 26,000 for Wing flags
~$ 417,000 for unit flags

...and that doesn't even factor the patches, coins, sign-age, collateral, website updates (volunteer time), system changes (con$ulting time), and who knows what else would have to be updated.

I'd say its a $1M unfunded project, easy.

[JC004]

Ah, I failed to factor this in.  Thank you for helping me catch this, sir. 

So back to original position; perhaps I can help this along without offending anyone?

Simply changing the names of Wings to numbers, would be far more cost-effective.  I think we can all agree on this point.

I don't agree with that.  It is NOT simple.  It is MORE complicated.

But why?

It puts CAP closer in line with the AF, and there's really nothing for CAP to lose by doing so.

In other words, it would very likely be a win-win situation.

I don't see how it better aligns us with the Air Force.  In name only, maybe.  Air Force units can be moved.  CAP wings are geographic.

Also a potential boost to morale too, and perhaps even better recruitment potential.  "Welcome to 51st Wing, Civil Air Patrol, U.S. Air Force Auxiliary", instead of just "Welcome to Ohio Wing."

Also...

"51st" wing will jive with 'CAP-unfamiliar' AF personnel way more than "Ohio Wing"... because the nomenclature is so radically different. 

"Ohio Wing, what's that?  Did you mean to say simply, Ohio Civil Air Patrol?"

But again... Just to reiterate... Got nothing to lose by doing this, and puts CAP closer in line with the Parent Organization.

I really don't see it raising morale.  There are other ways to raise morale. 

The idea of states are not radically different.  I'm assuming that nearly all Air Force personnel are aware that the United States has states.  I'd venture to say that ALL Air Force personnel grasp the concept of states.

What we loose is some simplicity.  That goes against one of the most important beliefs that I have about running a volunteer organization.  That is, making things simple.  Volunteers don't generally work full-time hours.  It's really important to make things as easy as possible on them.  Empower them, don't burden them.

Yep - figure...

~$ 26,000 for Wing flags
~$ 417,000 for unit flags

...and that doesn't even factor the patches, coins, sign-age, collateral, website updates (volunteer time), system changes (con$ulting time), and who knows what else would have to be updated.

I'd say its a $1M unfunded project, easy.

Eclipse...you are such a downer.  This is a very minimal investment.  All we would have to do is raise member dues like an extra ten bucks.  Wouldn't you be willing to pay an extra ten bucks to be called whatever number wing IL is?

[lordmonar]

We have a lot of time and money to lose changing everything for little to no gain.

Yep - figure...

~$ 26,000 for Wing flags
~$ 417,000 for unit flags

...and that doesn't even factor the patches, coins, sign-age, collateral, website updates (volunteer time), system changes (con$ulting time), and who knows what else would have to be updated.

I'd say its a $1M unfunded project, easy.

+1....I did not even consider the unit flags....those bad boys are expensive!

[JC004]

+1....I did not even consider the unit flags....those bad boys are expensive!

Clearly you did not also consider that we'd get a whole 6% back on the flag orders, which can be used for shower building.