Unit Names Too Long Etc?

[MIKE]

For unit names for CAP units at all echelons, in your opinion what kinds of unit names are appropriate for each type of unit?  How long is too long etc?

As an example, my units fill name as it appears on our unit patch is Lt Col Frank Pocher Minute Man Squadron... The length of the name is such that it does not fit on the organizational flag, nor does it show our squadron type.  It's like we have two names, (I guess we do really, though I don't think that was the intent originally.) Most people including the majority of squadron members just refer to our unit as Minute Man Squadron... I have heard some refer to our unit as "Frank Pocher's group" or similar however; referring to the late Lt Col Frank Pocher, our unit having been named in his honor.

Pertinent CAP regulations I've found on the subject:
CAPR 20-3 CHARTERS AND OTHER ORGANIZATION ACTIONS
CAPR 900-2 CIVIL AIR PATROL SEAL, EMBLEM AND FLAG ETIQUETTE

My thoughts:

1. A unit name is too long if does not fit within the limits of the organizational flag... Exceptions being unit type designators using approved abbreviations found in CAPR 900-2. Further, units shall have only one name.

2. IMO, unit names should not include individual's names both living and deceased... Nor those types of names deemed inappropriate per CAPR 20-3.

3. IMO, unit names should be based on location of the unit... Towns and cities for squadrons or flights, counties or equivalent for groups etc, but I'm also partial to a numbering system similar to that which is used by USAF units of a similar type... Ideally numbered units would be derived from the existing charter number.  Granted, it would not seem to make units seem very unique but it does impart much more of a standard to unit identification.

I understand CAWG and possibly other wings do already use a numbering system... It seems that CAWGs numbering system is not connected with the unit name or charter number however.  How does that work exactly and what is the history behind it?

What are your thoughts and or comments?

[Major_Chuck]

My first squadron was a 'memorial' squadron and nobody could remember why it was named that way or what the guy did.  It was renamed the Shenandoah Valley Senior Squadron.

[arajca]

My first squadron was named after the town in which it met - Downers Grove Composite Squadron. It was changed to honor a local who was involved with the space program and became the Lt Col Shorty Powers Comp. Sdqn. Col Powers was the voice of mission control for the Mercury program. He was also from the area.

The problem with naming units after cities/town/counties/etc is what happens when the unit moves? The name for the unit I am trying to start is planned to be Great Divide Composite. Since it will be based in a county on the Contiental Divide, it provides for a unique landmark that covers a large area. Also if it should move, it won't need to change the name - unless it moves out of the area (100+ miles)

If you change all the unit names to numbers, who gets to be the 1st Composite Squadron?

[MIKE]

The problem with naming units after cities/town/counties/etc is what happens when the unit moves?

Thats where the number idea comes in... IIRC this is one of the reasons the USAF names units this way and also why unit insignia is not supposed to be geographically specific.

I got the impression that naming units with location based names was preferred for CAP units after reading CAPR 20-3.

If you change all the unit names to numbers, who gets to be the 1st Composite Squadron?

I guess I can see something like that happening if we were to use bits of existing charter numbers.

Don't most USAF squadrons have a more than one digit number?  I thought most had like three digits?  How does it work in the USAF?  Is it easier to be distinctive because they have may more different types of unit designations than CAP?

[SarDragon]

I despise CAWG's number system. Someone says they are from Squadron 1481, and anyone not familiar with where the units are located has no freaking idea where they are based. In a wing as large as CAWG, that makes it really difficult. I've been in the wing almost six years now, and still can't accurately place a lot of the units.

I much prefer a location based naming convention, so when someone says Podunk County Composite Sq, I know where they "live". "Memorial" squadrons are a little harder to work with, but there's usually a better association between squadron name and location than simply a number. E.g. - Joe Schmuckatelli Composite Squadron, named after a prominent figure in the unit's history who used to live close to the unit's home. "Yeah, old Joe was from Beerfroth, up north. Great guy." That makes the location more specific than just saying Sq 1481. What's the significance of 1481?

There are at least two units in CAWG with special numbers that do have significance - Simi Valley Challenger Composite Squadron 1986, the year of the Challenger exploded, and Big Bear Valley Composite Squadron 6750, their altitude.

[Eagle400]

There are at least two units in CAWG with special numbers that do have significance - Simi Valley Challenger Composite Squadron 1986, the year of the Challenger exploded, and Big Bear Valley Composite Squadron 6750, their altitude.

My Alma Mater!

Thank you for sharing Sir!

[Eclipse]

Where do units have more than one name?

I am personally not a fan of "memorial units".

[dwb]

Seriously CCSE, a five year thread bump?  I didn't realize this site has even been around that long.

[lordmonar]

My preference is either geographical names.

Las Vegas Squadron
Clark County Squadron
East Chicago Squadron
Southern Nevada Squadron

Or just number them by your charter number

69th CAP Squadron
70th CAP Squadron

If a unit moves....it changes names.

The problem with memorial squadrons is that 20 years later no one know who "Homer J. Simpson" is and why he is significant....especially if the unit moves.

I also thing we need to drop the senior, cadet, composite designations......they are more or less meaningless in or out of CAP.

If a squadron does not want to do CP...then they don't just as one who does not want to do ES don't have to (although I don't agree with this attitude).

Another possibility is to keep or modify squadron designations by allowing squadrons to choose what they want to specialize in.

Las Vegas SAR Squadron
Las Vegas Cadet Squadron
Las Vegas Aerospace Squadron
Clark County Communications Squadron

Or

69th Cadet Squadron
49th SAR Squadron
70th Communications Squadron

Numbering them brings them more in line with our military parent organisation.

Using geographical names at least ties us to our usual Area of Operations.

[IceNine]

Allowing units to choose a name based  off what they want to specialize in would encourage specialization.  Which is not a conversation we should even be having.

I know there are units that focus a majority of their attention in one place, but that doesn't make them a specialized unit, it makes them an unbalanced unit that needs to figure out how to meet all the missions equally.

I'm not a fan of memorial units either.

[SarDragon]

Well, sports fans, I think we have a new record!

Functional names are no longer authorized (Comm Sq, SAR Sq, etc.). Those went away years ago. The latest 20-3 is dated 2002, and there was no change to that section from the previous version (1998).

[a2capt]

Two more, being Sq144, the sum of two units that came together to form it, and Sq714, that I don't recall the exact meaning, but having to do with the numerical position of letters, or equiv..

It's really no different than when the name of the unit has zero to do with the geographic area. You still have to ask.

It's not called Mission Valley Stadium, either. But you know where Jack Murphy stadium is..  ;-)


As for the five year bump, he's catching up. ;-)

[Cecil DP]

Two more, being Sq144, the sum of two units that came together to form it, and Sq714, that I don't recall the exact meaning, but having to do with the numerical position of letters, or equiv..

It's really no different than when the name of the unit has zero to do with the geographic area. You still have to ask.

It's not called Mission Valley Stadium, either. But you know where Jack Murphy stadium is..  ;-)


As for the five year bump, he's catching up. ;-)

I do know where Mission Valley is, But if I hadn't been staioned in San Diego 40 years ago, wouldn't know that Jack Murphy was the former mayor of that city. It actually drives me crazy trying to figure out where a game is being played based on the commercialization of naming rights.   

[AdAstra]

Historically, CAP has used three different systems for charter numbers. Originally, it was X-X-XXX, with the first digit designating the region (based on the Army zones at the time), the second digit was the state/wing, and the last three were the individual unit. Perhaps in the 1950s, CAP switched to the five-digit system, with the first two digits designating the wing and the last three the individual unit. In 2002, CAP changed to the current system: REG-WG-XXX. I recall one explanation at the time that the new-fangled computers couldn't compute the five-digit charter numbers and relate them to their respective regions....

Different wings issue charter numbers, squadron numbers and names in different ways. California has historically issued squadron numbers different than the charter number. With the new school units, the charter numbers (REG-WG-8xx) are now used as the squadron number. But beyond that, there is no rhyme nor reason that anyone can remember. In addition to the CAWG units already mentioned, Squadron 137 also added up the number of two merging units. Traditionally, charter numbers are not re-used, unless a squadron is reactivated (such as soon-to-return Modesto Squadron 50), but squadron numbers are often re-used. More confusion for the historians.

Many years back, when we were no longer affiliated with the original school, I changed the squadron's name from the school name to a geographic name. Still makes sense. For shorthand, we usually use the squadron number. If a CAP member looks geographically-challenged (SarDragon?), I quickly add a location. Talking to the outside world, I typically use a more generic "Civil Air Patrol squadron."

Commercialization? Any objections to naming a unit "Boeing Cadet Squadron XX" if the donation was big enough?

With the history lesson and five-year bump, maybe this needs to move to the History page?

[Eclipse]

Commercialization? Any objections to naming a unit "Boeing Cadet Squadron XX" if the donation was big enough?

Yes, as we are still a pseudo government agency, and it would be no more appropriate than the 1st Boeing Bomber Wing.

We don't sell naming rights (at least not yet), which is one of the reasons I don't like the memorial units, since I know many of them got that way through endowments which are basically the same thing.

[Eagle400]

Seriously CCSE, a five year thread bump?  I didn't realize this site has even been around that long.

I know Sir.

But I accept whatever comes as a result.   

[SarDragon]

Actually, I think the bump is OK. There's a new perspective now, and new folks to give inputs. Let's see where it goes. At worst, everyone will get bored again and the thread will drop into oblivion for another four and a half years.

[mynetdude]

Actually, I think the bump is OK. There's a new perspective now, and new folks to give inputs. Let's see where it goes. At worst, everyone will get bored again and the thread will drop into oblivion for another four and a half years.

well if you're interested in new perspective, here's mine.  I dislike squadrons only named by numbers but if a squadron were named AND numbered like the RM squadrons are numbered then that would be cool.

I also like geographical naming except for when a squadron moves it should also change its name based on its geographical location.  Some have mentioned specialty squadrons, the RM seems to have this so why don't we? I understand this defeats the point of effectively training everyone to be on the same page or similar skills whatnot.

I don't have any RM experience so anything that resembles the RM is just the frosting on the cake for me!

[jimmydeanno]

I also like geographical naming except for when a squadron moves it should also change its name based on its geographical location. 

That's the reason that I'm not a fan of specific geographical names.  "Laconia Cadet Squadron" or "Minneapolis Senior Squadron" I think are too specific.  I would prefer people to have a more generic geographical name like "Lakes Region Cadet Squadron" or "Twin City Senior Squadron."  That way, if the unit happens to have to relocate to a suburb of the bigger city, etc they don't have to get new patches, business cards, letterhead, flag, charter, etc.

My first unit was "Hawk Cadet Squadron" which was nondescript and portable.

I also recommend not naming a squadron after someone who is alive, because you never know what they'll end up doing.  You name your unit after some dude(tte) that did awesome things only to find out later that he was nabbed for being the guy that drives this van:



Long names are a pain too.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I also recommend not naming a squadron after someone who is alive, because you never know what they'll end up doing.  You name your unit after some dude(tte) that did awesome things only to find out later that he was nabbed for being the guy that drives this van:

Generally, the reputation of the dead does not change much. 

[Eagle400]

One thing I'd like to see are Numbered Wings
(i.e. identified as numbers, rather than mere names). 

I forget them all, but some wings have numbers on the patch. 

What harm would there be, in having each CAP wing known by its number?
 

[NC Hokie]

One thing I'd like to see are Numbered Wings
(i.e. identified as numbers, rather than mere names). 

I forget them all, but some wings have numbers on the patch. 

What harm would there be, in having each CAP wing known by its number?

People don't know where the 32nd Wing is, but they do know where the North Carolina Wing is located.

[MIKE]

The thing with numbered wings is you could remove the geographic boundaries and possibly merge up some smaller wings like we have here in New England.

[Eagle400]

The thing with numbered wings is you could remove the geographic boundaries and possibly merge up some smaller wings like we have here in New England.

Sounds like a plan Sir!

And on that note (though the inverse)... IMO one of the things California Wing needs to do, is split the state into 2 different wings.  I learned while on CAWG CAC, that the wing --despite it's great achievements-- is just too darn big for its own good. 

Command authority is not centralized enough, and because of that there are units that do as they please (and --in some cases-- even with the blessing of STAN-EVAL personnel.)  Just like the one in my own backyard. 

Their modus opperendae, for 12 years has been "do well on 'under-rug-swept' SUI's... And we'll just disregard the black and white altogether, off the record."

Though this is a separate topic, and if anyone wants to add... Please go ahead and PM me.  Thank You Kindly.     

[mynetdude]

wings already do have numbers, ORWG is 36 IIRC

[IceNine]

The numbers today are strictly used to identify resources.

Vehicles and A/C's specifically.

The first 2 identify the wing, the rest identify that specific resource.

[mynetdude]

The numbers today are strictly used to identify resources.

Vehicles and A/C's specifically.

The first 2 identify the wing, the rest identify that specific resource.

True concerning vehicles, but I'm not sure A/Cs are issued numbers based on wing isn't it the FAA That issues the tail numbers?

[IceNine]

Ever heard CAP Flight ##XX?

Or the current CAP ##XX

[IceNine]

d. Aircraft Call Signs. CAP corporate aircraft will use "CAP-Flight" (pronounced "cap flight") at all times. Member-owned aircraft may also use the CAP-Flight call sign when on Air Force Assigned Missions (AFAM). Wings and regions will use the first two digits for their region/wing vehicle identity numbers, IAW CAPR 77-1, attachment 8b, as the first two digits of the call sign and will devise a suitable plan for assigning the second two digits. Controls must be present in this plan to prevent two aircraft from using the same call sign simultaneously. Wings with a zero as the first number of their vehicle identity number will drop the leading zero, therefore, their CAP-Flight call signs will be three digit calls. No other truncating of the call sign numbering is authorized, meaning both of the second two digits must be used

[mynetdude]

oh yeah I forgotsorry about that

yeah I forgot the first two digits are the wing so yeah you are right, I was thinking of the new rule change when we switched from CAPFlight to CAP and they also told us to start using the last two numbers in the N*** sequence.

[Cecil DP]

The thing with numbered wings is you could remove the geographic boundaries and possibly merge up some smaller wings like we have here in New England.

When Ed Raymond was MAWG/CC, RIWG was referred to as our Southern Group

[Eagle400]

wings already do have numbers, ORWG is 36 IIRC

Then why not just go with those?

?

[mynetdude]

wings already do have numbers, ORWG is 36 IIRC

Then why not just go with those?

?

uh because the numbers still represent the geographical location, no need to do that and it makes it easier for people to understand how the charter number is put together instead of seeing xxx region xx wing and xxx squadron all in numbers they're going to think somebody has a wild like for extra long SSNs

[Eagle400]

uh because the numbers still represent the geographical location,

But the majority are not visible, let alone identified.  For some reason...

no need to do that and it makes it easier for people to understand how the charter number is put together instead of seeing xxx region xx wing and xxx squadron all in numbers they're going to think somebody has a wild like for extra long SSNs

Understood, but can a compromise be found whereby wings can be identified by number... Yet not mix things up administratively, so-to-speak?

Bottom line: Air Force does it (Wings by Number)... No reason CAP can't do the same.   

[mynetdude]

uh because the numbers still represent the geographical location,

But the majority are not visible, let alone identified.  For some reason...

no need to do that and it makes it easier for people to understand how the charter number is put together instead of seeing xxx region xx wing and xxx squadron all in numbers they're going to think somebody has a wild like for extra long SSNs

Understood, but can a compromise be found whereby wings can be identified by number... Yet not mix things up administratively, so-to-speak?

Bottom line: Air Force does it (Wings by Number)... No reason CAP can't do the same.   

I think your questions have already been asked and answered already cadet I need not say more.

[ßτε]

Wings in the USAF are numbered because are not geographically fixed in their location. Wings in CAP are fixed by geographic location. Every one should know where CAWG is, but if asked where 4th CAP Wing is located, very few would know.

[a2capt]

... and with all this repeater renaming, and possible call sign changing, and what not, thats exactly what they want to happen.

No one to know where you are located.

[SarDragon]

Up until the late '90s, wings were numbered, alphabetically, with the DC wing in the list as NatCap, and Alaska and Hawaii coming in at 51 and 52. The other extra wing is PRWG.

IMHO, the letters work better. I know where CA is; I didn't know where 04 was before I changed the system.

[Daryl Morning]

Our Squadron patch still has the old style designation 48161 (WI-161).  I joke it keeps us from needing to spend the $$ on the wing patch.  Our squadron patch mentions the Wing FREE!

[a2capt]

With the wings being numbered, I either slept that day.. or.. something, because I don't remember anything about us adding and dropping states. The flag people must have been really busy ;-)

What is the '62' on the WIWG patch for, then? 

.. or 61, and 51. Seems to me like the wings may have been geographical not by state border and there were more than '50' (52) ..

[Eclipse]

Sixth region 1st charter (or something to that effect)...

[SKI304]

The numbers on the wing patches stand for #Army Corps Area/Army Service Command, # State.  So, for example, in Ohio we have 51 on our wing patch.  That translates to 5th Army Service Command, 1st State.

Here's an article from the National Historian detailing all the intricacies of the Charter Numbers:
http://incountry.us/cappatches/library/art-pres/hn-number.pdf

[a2capt]

..and the bit about 25000 and National ... when NHQ was at Ellington, and ended up at Maxwell,  which is in 01000, so thats why they moved there ;-) (I know, their number is the highest, just now situated amongst the lowest)

[BillB]

The numbers for Wings was based on Army Air Corp Districts. For example 4 was for the Southeast AAC Region. Thus Floridas Wing number started with 4. The second number was for a state in the District. Florida became 4-1. There were eight AAC Regions, CAP still follows those eight Regions.  I have no clue as to how the state number was assigned. My original Cadet Serial Number was 41-320, and the Senior number 4-1-5716. The dash between region and wing number showed Senior membership. Without the dash, showed Cadet membership.

[SarDragon]

OK, I got 50, 51, and 52 twisted about. The article explains it all.

[Eagle400]

I think your questions have already been asked and answered already cadet I need not say more.

Well, not anymore unfortunately.  Sorry if I didn't clarify this.  Not hard to imagine.    

Joined at 12 (Sept '98) and left in September '06. 
(Could've done the full 9, but was saying things that make way too much sense).

So I forced myself out, with full 201 File copies in hand.  May rejoin soon though. 
(Not worried about politics anymore either... CAP is but a wee sampling of crud going on at much, much higher levels). 

Work in D.C.?  I'm sorry; Praying for ya! 



Now then...

Okay, so Wing numbers --as primary identifiers-- will probably never happen. 

But can they at least go on all the Wing patches? 
(Some are already, as with Michigan and Ohio...)     

[SarDragon]

The numbers on the current patches are mostly from the original numbering system, and would have no correspondence to the most recent system.

But then, why do we need numbers? NHQ seems to think otherwise, having changed away from numbers about ten years ago. Why do we need them on the optional wing patches? Are you a Vanguard pawn? Are you going to pay for all the new patches?

[mynetdude]

what does it matter if you did 9 or 10 years??? I can't disagree in some of your comment about politics but that does not mean I will bad mouth anyone despite the politics.

I also agree, why change the patches to put numbers unless you are willing to front the costs of doing so?

[Dragon 3-2]

Commercialization? Any objections to naming a unit "Boeing Cadet Squadron XX" if the donation was big enough?

NJWG has a Curtiss Wright Composite

[JC004]

CHANGE THE WING PATCHES?!  Who is going to memorize all 52 numerical identifiers?!

[jimmydeanno]

CHANGE THE WING PATCHES?!  Who is going to memorize all 52 numerical identifiers?!

You know that it would become some sort of standard promotion criteria in some units for cadets that want to earn their Curry.

"Oooh.  I'm sorry, you mixed up Missouri and Rhode Island."

Then, everyone that didn't memorize them would be seen as inferior by the small group that decided to do it and they'd claim they were more CAP orthodox than the rest of us.

[Eagle400]

Alright, I'll drop it. 

Apparently some folks can't handle the thought of adding a few extra lines of thread, to a piece of embroidery about 3 inches in diameter. 

Wow. 

[lordmonar]

Alright, I'll just drop it. 

Apparently some folks can't handle the thought of adding a few extra lines of thread, to a piece of embroidery about 3 inches in diameter. 

Wow.

It is not that....it is the cost involved.

A few lines of threads means a whole new run of patches at a cost of about 3$ each, times the number of people in the wing (In Nevada that would be around $1600+).

To add a number that has no meaning what so ever to anyone.

Like I said....I too don't like the "Homer J. Simpson, Drinks Way Too Much Memorial Composite Squadrons"....but I am not going to say everyone has to change to just meet my idea of what would be a "good thing".

[Eagle400]

Ah, I failed to factor this in.  Thank you for helping me catch this, sir. 


So back to original position; perhaps I can help this along without offending anyone?

Simply changing the names of Wings to numbers, would be far more cost-effective.  I think we can all agree on this point.
 

But why?

It puts CAP closer in line with the AF, and there's really nothing for CAP to lose by doing so.

In other words, it would very likely be a win-win situation. 

Also a potential boost to morale too, and perhaps even better recruitment potential.  "Welcome to 51st Wing, Civil Air Patrol, U.S. Air Force Auxiliary", instead of just "Welcome to Ohio Wing."


Also...

"51st" wing will jive with 'CAP-unfamiliar' AF personnel way more than "Ohio Wing"... because the nomenclature is so radically different. 

"Ohio Wing, what's that?  Did you mean to say simply, Ohio Civil Air Patrol?"


But again... Just to reiterate... Got nothing to lose by doing this, and puts CAP closer in line with the Parent Organization.

[davidsinn]

Simply changing the names of Wings to numbers, would be far more cost-effective.  I think we can all agree on this point.

No we don't. You would have to change every wing patch. Every letterhead. Every reg. and pam. and form that mentions the name of the wing. That is not cost effective. 

It puts CAP closer in line with the AF, and there's really nothing for CAP to lose by doing so.

$$$$$ and time

In other words, it would very likely be a win-win situation. 

Or not.

Also a potential boost to morale too, and perhaps even better recruitment potential.  "Welcome to 51st Wing, Civil Air Patrol, U.S. Air Force Auxiliary", instead of just "Welcome to Ohio Wing."

Possibly, but is it a problem?

Also...

"51st" wing will jive with 'CAP-unfamiliar' AF personnel way more than "Ohio Wing"... because the nomenclature is so radically different. 

"Ohio Wing, what's that?  Did you mean to say simply, Ohio Civil Air Patrol?"

This is actually a problem but usually more with reporters that can't write what we say.

But again... Just to reiterate... Got nothing to lose by doing this, and puts CAP closer in line with the Parent Organization.

We have a lot of time and money to lose changing everything for little to no gain.

[lordmonar]

CCSE....I think you missed my point competely.

Changing wing names woud NOT be cost effective.

All the time and money spent would NOT fix any problems.

Nevada Wing, Califonia Wing make sense to both the USAF and outside agencies.

Yes 29th Wing would sound more Air Forceish.....but your average USAF guy would still say "who's that" just as often (if not more) then they do now.

Again numbering our lower units would again make us sound more like USAF units but again would not help with recognistion.

I like over all the geographical naming convention.

Pacific Region, Nevada Wing, Clark County Squadron.

If you got groups.....Pacific Region, California Wing, Souther Group, San Diego Squadron.

Easy pleasey.  At least the names tell you something about the squadron.

[Eclipse]

We have a lot of time and money to lose changing everything for little to no gain.

Yep - figure...

~$ 26,000 for Wing flags
~$ 417,000 for unit flags

...and that doesn't even factor the patches, coins, sign-age, collateral, website updates (volunteer time), system changes (con$ulting time), and who knows what else would have to be updated.

I'd say its a $1M unfunded project, easy.

[JC004]

Ah, I failed to factor this in.  Thank you for helping me catch this, sir. 

So back to original position; perhaps I can help this along without offending anyone?

Simply changing the names of Wings to numbers, would be far more cost-effective.  I think we can all agree on this point.

I don't agree with that.  It is NOT simple.  It is MORE complicated.

But why?

It puts CAP closer in line with the AF, and there's really nothing for CAP to lose by doing so.

In other words, it would very likely be a win-win situation.

I don't see how it better aligns us with the Air Force.  In name only, maybe.  Air Force units can be moved.  CAP wings are geographic.

Also a potential boost to morale too, and perhaps even better recruitment potential.  "Welcome to 51st Wing, Civil Air Patrol, U.S. Air Force Auxiliary", instead of just "Welcome to Ohio Wing."

Also...

"51st" wing will jive with 'CAP-unfamiliar' AF personnel way more than "Ohio Wing"... because the nomenclature is so radically different. 

"Ohio Wing, what's that?  Did you mean to say simply, Ohio Civil Air Patrol?"

But again... Just to reiterate... Got nothing to lose by doing this, and puts CAP closer in line with the Parent Organization.

I really don't see it raising morale.  There are other ways to raise morale. 

The idea of states are not radically different.  I'm assuming that nearly all Air Force personnel are aware that the United States has states.  I'd venture to say that ALL Air Force personnel grasp the concept of states.

What we loose is some simplicity.  That goes against one of the most important beliefs that I have about running a volunteer organization.  That is, making things simple.  Volunteers don't generally work full-time hours.  It's really important to make things as easy as possible on them.  Empower them, don't burden them.

Yep - figure...

~$ 26,000 for Wing flags
~$ 417,000 for unit flags

...and that doesn't even factor the patches, coins, sign-age, collateral, website updates (volunteer time), system changes (con$ulting time), and who knows what else would have to be updated.

I'd say its a $1M unfunded project, easy.

Eclipse...you are such a downer.  This is a very minimal investment.  All we would have to do is raise member dues like an extra ten bucks.  Wouldn't you be willing to pay an extra ten bucks to be called whatever number wing IL is?

[lordmonar]

We have a lot of time and money to lose changing everything for little to no gain.

Yep - figure...

~$ 26,000 for Wing flags
~$ 417,000 for unit flags

...and that doesn't even factor the patches, coins, sign-age, collateral, website updates (volunteer time), system changes (con$ulting time), and who knows what else would have to be updated.

I'd say its a $1M unfunded project, easy.

+1....I did not even consider the unit flags....those bad boys are expensive!

[JC004]

+1....I did not even consider the unit flags....those bad boys are expensive!

Clearly you did not also consider that we'd get a whole 6% back on the flag orders, which can be used for shower building.   

[PHall]

Semi Off Topic:

Why do we even have "Unit Flags"? Wings, Groups and Squadrons in the Air Force just have Guidons.
Much less expensive...

[SarDragon]

But you haven't given us any real benefits.

We don't need to be more like the AF. Our system has worked fine for as long as it's been in place. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You still haven't given us a reason why it's broken.

How is changing a word to a number cost effective? What are the gains?

BTW, Ohio wouldn't be the 51st Wing, it would likely be the 34th wing, IAW the list linked above.

But, IMHO, the idea still sux.

YMMV.

[JC004]

...
BTW, Ohio wouldn't be the 51st Wing, it would likely be the 34th wing, IAW the list linked above.
...

HAHAHAHA.  They're getting mixed up already and they don't exist. 

[Eagle400]

Okay; I will drop this. 
(Thread Derailment anyway)   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't think the squadron type needs to be in the name; i.e., Senior, Composite, Cadet.

"Senior" sounds like it's an elderly folks' unit.

There's often a lot of crossover between "cadet" and "composite" squadrons in terms of the ratio of adult v. youth members.  I've seen "composite" squadrons with loads of cadets and maybe 5 adult members, and "cadet" squadrons with an almost 1:1 ratio of adults to cadets.

Some "geographical" possibilities:

001 Los Angeles (CAWG) Squadron
200 New York City (NYWG) Squadron
025 Bexar County (TXWG) Squadron
123 San Juan (PRWG) Flight

For units located on military installations:

030 Keesler AFB (MSWG) Squadron
109 Fort Benning (GAWG) Squadron
008 NAS Lemoore (CAWG) Flight
321 CGAS Kodiak (AKWG) Squadron

I'd bin all the "memorial" units...especially when they've been named that so long that many don't even know who they're named for.

[SarDragon]

Some memorial units actually make sure that new folks know about the person their squadron is named for.

[jimmydeanno]

"Senior" sounds like it's an elderly folks' unit.

They aren't?   

[JC004]

"Senior" sounds like it's an elderly folks' unit.

They aren't?   

Touché.

[Major Carrales]

I support the "geographic" rational.  However, what would that mean?  Nearest city or nearest body of flowing water (shades of how Civil War battles are named).

Corpus Christi Comp Squadron has never really reflected the make up of the whole squadron more than Coastal Bend Comp Squadron would have.  Our unit involves persons from upwards of 80 miles in one direction and 40 in the other and potentially 100 if Laredo every wanted members.

Calling it Texas 026 would serve no external purpose.  And, some people deserve unit named after them for their service to CAP.

A tough call ripe with exceptions to every solution.

[JC004]

Your state is too freaking big, Joe.

[Major Carrales]

Your state is too freaking big, Joe.

Below shows Group V...

Our Unit basically covers Nueces, Jim Wells, Kleberg, Brooks, San Patricio, Live Oak, Duval, Jim Hogg and Kenedy Counties...sometims a bit more that that.  Victoria is to our North, McAllen, Harlingen and Brownsville are to our south.  There are no units to the west all the way to Mexico.

Welcome to the FRONTIER!!!

[JC004]

...and PAWG thought its previous 3 groups were too big.  I've got to check this out.  I wonder if that Southwest Airlines special to Corpus Christi from PHL is still going on...

I bet one of those western counties is the size of a New England state.  Heck, PA has a county the size of Rhode Island.

As for the topic (or morphed topic), that's why I'm not TOTALLY against the idea of having wings as maybe less than a state (especially, say Texas or California)...I am against the idea of just renaming them for no reason because it sounds cool.  I've been to Texas and California both.  Nevada isn't exactly small either... Man...hours on the train at night with like NO lights. 

[Major Carrales]

...and PAWG thought its previous 3 groups were too big.  I've got to check this out.  I wonder if that Southwest Airlines special to Corpus Christi from PHL is still going on...

I bet one of those western counties is the size of a New England state.  Heck, PA has a county the size of Rhode Island.

As for the topic (or morphed topic), that's why I'm not TOTALLY against the idea of having wings as maybe less than a state (especially, say Texas or California)...I am against the idea of just renaming them for no reason because it sounds cool.

Our Group appears to Rival the size of Louisiana and, while the above map only shows Group V, this map...

Shows Group I to be almost as large geographically as the whole of NEW ENGLAND.

[SarDragon]

That's OK, California still has the biggest county in CONUS - San Bernardino County.

[a2capt]

Heh.. and California just doesn't even "bother" with some of the counties, though they are all covered, just with no units actually located in them, they don't seem to make the 'official' map.





Group 1 - Los Angeles County
Group 2 - San Francisco / Oakland and north central coast
Group 3 - Riverside & San Bernardino County (Inland Empire)
Group 4 - Ventura / Vandenberg, Central Coast
Group 5 - the Various Northern California counties shown
Group 6 - Central Valley, Bakersfield, Fresno, Atwater
Group 7 - San Diego / Orange County


There's a NVWG unit in CA because of the isolation. Two sets of mountains really divide this state quite well, and two sets of mentalities divide it the other way. All four seasons, expansive examples of all kinds of terrain and their challenges and the biggest county in the 48 states.

[IceNine]

My furthest unit is 2.5 hours away and they're lucky to see me twice a year.

I can't imagine literally needing a hotel and airline ticket to visit a unit.

[tdepp]

We serve our communities and states.  If the SD Wing became the 40th Wing (our order of admission in the Union), that doesn't tell the public anything about us.  Say the South Dakota Wing of the CAP and that's pretty darn clear.

I can see an approval process for squadron names (is there one already?) to make sure the name is not offensive.  Again, here in SD, we have the Lookout Mountain Squadron and Big Sioux Squadron.  They are distinctive geological and historical names.  People in those areas understand that.  And why would anyone have a problem with a memorial unit?  If there was a local CAP, aviation, or military person who was extremely accomplished or was a hero or did a lot for CAP or aviation, why not honor them with a squadron name?  I think one of the Texas squadrons recently named themselves the George W. Bush or the George H.W. Bush Squadron.  While I'm not a fan of either, they were both aviators and presidents and Texans.  I think it would actually be kind of cool to be in a squadron named after a president (except maybe Nixon) and I'm a Yellow Dog Democrat. 

Like the continual discussions on uniforms, don't we have more important issues to address?

[Eagle400]

CCSE....I think you missed my point competely.

Changing wing names woud NOT be cost effective.

All the time and money spent would NOT fix any problems.

Nevada Wing, Califonia Wing make sense to both the USAF and outside agencies.

Yes 29th Wing would sound more Air Forceish.....but your average USAF guy would still say "who's that" just as often (if not more) then they do now.

Again numbering our lower units would again make us sound more like USAF units but again would not help with recognistion.

I like over all the geographical naming convention.

Pacific Region, Nevada Wing, Clark County Squadron.

If you got groups.....Pacific Region, California Wing, Souther Group, San Diego Squadron.

Easy pleasey.  At least the names tell you something about the squadron.

Understood, Sir. 

I'll let the 'numbered wings' idea go... It was a bad one anyway
(I should've factored-in the economic component).