NOTF on Wing Banking

[Skyray]

News of the Force published a number of letters to the editor on Wing Banking this morning.  I'm sorry, but I get it as an email and I don't have a link.  The responses were mostly favorable to Wing Banking, especially the ones from Virginia where it has actually been implemented.  Maybe one of our net gurus can scope out where Skip has this issue stashed and give us a URL.  It is an interesting read.

[ELTHunter]

I just read the same article.  I had heard the argument for implementing the program before, but something just struck me as I read the letters.  I would estimate that the majority of squadrons hold no state or federally appropriated cash.  If that is the case, and their money probably comes from squadron members dues, squadron fundraisers, etc. and is not mixed with "Corporate" monies.  Why the need for any visibility at all to auditors?  I understand that all subordinate unit property becomes property of the CAP.  However, we can have member owned property and equipment in the squadron headquarters as long as it is labeled as being privately owned by a member.  If the members of a squadron wish to pool their money for squadron use, why can't that money be held by the squadron?

I don't think there is any big conspiracy to confiscate unit money, but it just seems like a big knee jerk reaction to something that really wasn't a problem in the first place.

What's to keep members of a squadron from pooling their own money in an account for their own use?

[genejackson]

Morning guys,
First off, I am not an accountant so I'm not able to go into significant depth (maybe for the better, I'm an ENT booger picker by trade.

In order for CAP to receive many grants that are out there in the giant corporate world, we must be able to present an "Unqualified Audit" to those that hold the donation purse strings.   This is the really big issue for why the Wing Banker program is as needed as it is.   Qualified Audits mean there are funds out there in the individual Wings and Squadrons that cannot be completely accounted for at the National level, thus CAP as a whole cannot present this Unqualified Audit to the auditors.  Thus, inability to qualify for very large grants and the like.

So, CAP as a corporation is very much better served if we, as a whole, are able to have an Unqualified Audit.   In order for this to occur, every Wing must switch to the Wing Banker Program.   Then every single dollar can be shown on a large spreadsheet including where every single dollar has gone or come from.   Presto:  unqualified audit.

Please don't fight this thing.   It is not an effort to take monies from Squadrons.   Have your Wing give you deposit slips.  Do a fund raiser, etc and go deposit the funds to the nearest branch of the bank your Wing uses.   It is still your money, still belongs to your Squadron and your Squadron only.   To get it out, send a request for check to your Wing AO and have one issued.   Or send the bill and ask that he cut a check from your Squadron funds to pay for it.   Only on rare occasions such as coffee, donuts etc for classes have we had to pay upfront and then request repayment.  Not a big deal!

I hold the job of Group I Commander and have 11 Squadrons under me.  Every one of them has sent all funds to Wing and not one single commander has complained to me, not even once, that they had trouble getting any funds back from their accounts.   This program works, and it works VERY well.    Especially when it comes time for the end of year finance audit.   It is now a piece of cake to do end of year finances.   Wing already has the funds,  they already have a spreadsheet of all income/expenses.

Remember - the 3 things that will get you in trouble the quickest in CAP are:  cadets, airplanes and finances - and not necessarily in that order.

Wing Banker - a commanders best friend once you see it in action.

Gene

[genejackson]

--->>>  What's to keep members of a squadron from pooling their own money in an account for their own use?

This is a HUGE NO-NO !    Never, ever keep a cash drawer at the squadron.   That will get you in big trouble.

CAPR 173-1, 5 (h).  Units will not establish or maintain petty cash accounts. Reimbursement for out of pocket expenditures will be made by check.

[Skyray]

Once bit, twice shy.

I was interested in the letter from Doug Abruzzo asking what happened to the accounting for $300,000 between Florida Wing Commanders Don Cunningham and George Pringle that Florida Wing "lost."  During that same time frame, actually a little before Cunningham took over, my squadron had $7,000 in a maintenance fund that we had accumulated by good fiscal practice, charging our pilots a little more for proficiency flying, and having several aircraft mechanics working free for us.  Wing took the funds away from us under the "everything belongs to Wing" policy, and shortly after that they reassigned the aircraft and put our money in the general fund.  I have a high suspicion of Wing taking any funds they didn't generate, any time, any how.

[ZigZag911]

Remember - the 3 things that will get you in trouble the quickest in CAP are:  cadets, airplanes and finances - and not necessarily in that order.

I always felt the three quickest ways to "crash & burn" in CAP were finance, logistics, and safety (problems in any of these areas.

There is, however, much favorable to be said for your list.

Perhaps it needs to be expanded to a "Top 5"....or, as Monty Python said (quoted by so many), "Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, surprise, a ruthless efficiency...." 

[O-Rex]

Under-the-table squadron accounts; DON'T DO IT.

Centralized banking is nothing new, been doing it for years in my "day-job."

I've seen enough shenanigans from home-grown CAP "Sgt Bilkos" under the old system (who spent more time & energy on  fundraising than any of our three missions, then squandered the funds, or did something they shouldn't have doen wit them) to make me a believer in the Wing Banking Program.

Worried about echelons-above comandeering your dough?  Fiscal responsibility is a two-way street, just remember to keep you own records, just as if you still had the checkbook.

[mikeylikey]

I've seen enough shenanigans from home-grown CAP "Sgt Bilkos" under the old system (who spent more time & energy on  fundraising than any of our three missions, then squandered the funds, or did something they shouldn't have done wit them) to make me a believer in the Wing Banking Program.

Colonel: "BILKO"!!!!!!!
Bilko:  "Yes my Colonel"

I did not trust the Wing Banker Solution at first.  I got used to it, and have been trusting it for some time now.  The turn around on checks and immediate payments could be quicker, figuring they have an accountant, a wing administrator and a NHQ funded accountant at Wing HQ.  PLUS the PAWG forms created look like something a fifth grader put together on their first try at excel.  I would have made the forms more PROFESSIONAL looking. 

[SARMedTech]

This is a little of topic, but are Squadrons allowed to have fundraisers of their own creation to gain funds for equipment, activities, etc. If we go to the wing bank, do all monies belong to the wing, or are they kept separate according to the Squadrons that raised the money and hence that belongs to them? Sorry if its a stupid question, I just hate dealing with finances.

[mikeylikey]

All money should be in one account that can only be accessed by Wing HQ.  Wing HQ should keep a ledger of what each SQD has contributed to the giant fund.  When you need cash.....the accountant goes to the ledger, decides if you have contributed enough to cover the expense.  If you haven't and you don't keep good records at the SQD, you will most likely miss out.  When I say miss out, I mean it could cost you BIG.   Lets say you have to pay rent each month.  However, you are 35 cents under what you thought you had in your portion of the Wing account.  The Wing Accountant will not cut your recurring check to the landlord, and the landlord approaches you and says get the "F" out, because he can now rent to a non, non-profit and get more money than what you were paying.  AND YES, it has happened in PAWG. 

Don't worry though.  HAWK MTN was short on electricity bills, so wing dipped into the Account and "borrowed" money from the general account.  I still wonder if HAWK ever gave that money back to the account.  That is like.....STEALING??

[genejackson]

Absolutely, Squadrons can have fund raisers.   Just be very sure to do two things first,  review CAPR 173-3 and make sure you follow all the rules and run it up the flag pole to the Wing CC for approval.  Since the Wing CC is the only Corporate Officer of a Wing, and all funds essentially belong to the Corporation upon receipt, make sure he's in the loop.

After you complete the fund raiser,  deposit all funds into your Wing Banker account under your Squadron's subaccount that Wing will manage for you.  Get your Wing AO to give you a stack of deposit slips for things like this.   And when you need a check cut, write the Wing AO and request one.   Program works and will keep you out of trouble for your finances.   

And to all those who say just keep some funds locally for when you need it quickly,  don't do this guys.   Petty cash accounts are strictly forbidden by the regs and will get you a FIND during a Subordinate Inspection and can get a Squadron commander removed, etc.   When each of us signed the back of the CAPF-12, we agreed to follow the rules and regulations and that's the way it goes.

Can you detect I'm a big supporter of the Wing Banker Program?   Sure am.   During my 11 years in CAP, I absolutely HATED the end of year Finance Report as a Squadron Commander and even worse hated the chasing of those reports as a Group Commander.   For the past 3 years the Finance Reports are now a breeze and since everything is held at Wing HQ, they have the primary responsibility to complete the report. 

Remember - it is still your money.   Just kept in a different back under a different number and it takes one more step to get it-usually an email request.   But, the end result is in the best interest of the entire organization - an Unqualified Audit.   We are a Corporation, pure and simple, and this is best for the Corporation.

Gene

[ELTHunter]

In order for CAP to receive many grants that are out there in the giant corporate world, we must be able to present an "Unqualified Audit" to those that hold the donation purse strings.

Again, I'll ask.  If the money wasn't allocated from any state, local or federal funds, why does it matter?  If the squadron isn't a legal entity of the corporation, how can the money be considered to be part of CAP's funds?  If I leave my wallet with $100 in it in the squadron meeting place while I go out on a mission, does it become the CAP's?

--->>>  What's to keep members of a squadron from pooling their own money in an account for their own use?

This is a HUGE NO-NO !    Never, ever keep a cash drawer at the squadron.   That will get you in big trouble.

CAPR 173-1, 5 (h).  Units will not establish or maintain petty cash accounts. Reimbursement for out of pocket expenditures will be made by check.

I understand the regulation.  If I and other members wish to open a joint account somewhere with no mention of CAP in it, what gives CAP any authority over that?  We are friends pooling money, we just happen to also be in CAP?

I understand that it is a raving success in the Virginia wing and I'm happy for you.  However, being as CAP is like 52 little Wingdom's, that doesn't mean what works perfectly in Virginia is going to work as well in 51 other places.

I'll also take issue with you about reimbursement.  In everything else CAP does, I end up having to front the money and get paid weeks/months later.  I have not seen anything that makes me believe this will be any different.  Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being promoted as an unpaid professional organization that's on par with other federal agencies while being underwritten so much with members own funds.

[arajca]

In order for CAP to receive many grants that are out there in the giant corporate world, we must be able to present an "Unqualified Audit" to those that hold the donation purse strings.

Again, I'll ask.  If the money wasn't allocated from any state, local or federal funds, why does it matter?

It matters because to get an unqualified audit requires 100% accountability of CAP funds - regardless of source.

If the squadron isn't a legal entity of the corporation, how can the money be considered to be part of CAP's funds? 

Your unit received a charter from CAP, therefore it is a part of CAP, not a separate legal entity. Your unit is not a franchise like a fast food joint.

If I leave my wallet with $100 in it in the squadron meeting place while I go out on a mission, does it become the CAP's?

The money is in YOUR wallet, right? So, unless you tell someone to take it out, it is still YOURS, just like if youi accidently leave your wallet in a locker room while working out, the money inside is still yours.

--->>>  What's to keep members of a squadron from pooling their own money in an account for their own use?

This is a HUGE NO-NO !    Never, ever keep a cash drawer at the squadron.   That will get you in big trouble.

CAPR 173-1, 5 (h).  Units will not establish or maintain petty cash accounts. Reimbursement for out of pocket expenditures will be made by check.

I understand the regulation, please don't quote them to me.  If I and other members wish to open a joint account somewhere with no mention of CAP in it, what gives CAP any authority over that?  We are friends pooling money, we just happen to also be in CAP?

How about establishing a foundation to support your unit? See Policy letter for CAPR 173-3.

I understand that it is a raving success in the Virginia wing and I'm happy for you.  However, being as CAP is like 52 little Wingdom's, that doesn't mean what works perfectly in Virginia is going to work as well in 51 other places.

It works well in CO as well. The "52 little Wingdoms" is a problem CAP is trying to stamp out.

I'll also take issue with you about reimbursement.  In everything else CAP does, I end up having to front the money and get paid weeks/months later.

Isn't that what reimbursement means?

[Skyray]

Wing Banking is like a lawyer's trust account, and like a lawyer's trust account, you have to trust the lawyer.  Ideally, the wing would account separately for everything in its account, and when you ask for money properly with finance committee approval the wing finance officer would go to the books, and if you had sufficient credit you would get it.  There have been some shenanigans in the past, but as much as I dislike Major General Pineda on other grounds, it appears to me that he has been meticulous about handling money according to regulations.  He inherited a mess with Florida Wing (he was appointed to relieve Pringle before Pringle could deal with what appears to be an institutional lack of responsibility going back many years) and he did relatively well in squelching the problem, although I don't think he ever found the missing three hundred thousand.  I have horror stories about reimbursements from the Air Force that were never passed on to the pilots that incurred the expense, but Tony ended those events, and we need to look forward and be positive.

[Galahad]

Don't worry though.  HAWK MTN was short on electricity bills, so wing dipped into the Account and "borrowed" money from the general account.  I still wonder if HAWK ever gave that money back to the account.  That is like.....STEALING??

Yes, it is STEALING.  And it is specifically prohibited by CAPR 173-1 and CAPR 173-2 (see below) unless Wing obtained prior permission in writing from the units they borrowed funds from.  Not only can they not borrow the funds, they can't even borrow using the squadron funds as collateral (obligate). In my opinion if this actually happened the wing officers who signed off on it should be removed from their posts by NHQ immediately.  And a formal letter of apology should be issued to affected units, along with a description of the new safeguards that have been instituted to prevent recurrence in accordance with CAPR-172-2 Section 24.

CAPR 173-1 4.b and CAPR 173-2: 5: In the Wing Banker Program the wing acts as the bank, accountant, reporter, and check-writer service for the subordinate units. Units continue to maintain control of the obligation and transference of their funds via the local unit finance committee. Wings may not transfer or obligate unit funds in any way without unit written approval. Wings must not impose internal service charges to units.

There are a number of wings who seem to believe that CAP financial regulations are merely 'suggestions'.   They commit to pay interest on squadron funds but they don't. They committed to provide regular reports. First it was monthly, then quarterly, now it's "whenever we get around to it". They commit to pay certain regularly occurring squadron bills when they're sent to wing HQ, but they pay them late (or not at all), and squadrons don't find out there's a problem until they discover their phone has been turned off.  And squadrons get stuck paying the interest and late fees. In short, these wings have committed to perform "banking services" but they are incapable of or unwilling to fulfill those commitments. The wing kings want access to and control of the money, but they find those nuisance items that go along with being a 'bank" such as providing timely service and providing for independent audits by non-CAP agencies (such as independent CPAs or state banking authorities) to be unnecessary distractions. 

I have seen squadrons threatened with charter "suspension" over wing banking because they insisted on following CAPR 173-1 instead of complying with orders from wing that were illegal per CAPR 173-1. I have seen squadron commanders removed over similar issues. I have met officers who were threated with CAPF-2B proceedings over the same issue.  I have seen a wing finance officer resign because he/she objected to the level of electronic access that NHQ had to these same squadron funds, "access" being the ability to transfer funds from one account to another at will without notice or explanation. The difference between "wing banking" and regular banking is that the CAP version is the "communist" version. You have no choice in where you deposit squadron funds. You cannot withdraw the funds without waiting on wing. If key personnel at wing HQ are on vacation, too bad. You must submit and endure whatever meager level of customer service is offered.  No one at wing level or above sees a need to strictly adhere to the regulations (i.e., the original contract agreement).  And if you complain are threatened with removal from CAP.

Another item everyone seems to have overlooked is that when the squadrons funds were maintained in separate accounts, every dollar was covered by FDIC.  Under wing banking everything is in one giant account, managed by a spreadsheet at wing HQ. So in the event of a bank problem once the FDIC limits are exhausted we're SOL.  That's not what I would call exercising fiduciary responsibility. 

It's up to NHQ to enforce the regulations and make sure the wing banks are providing good service. But now that they have gathered all the funds, the "service" part of wing banking contract seems to have fallen by the wayside.

If your wing is doing a fine job with wing banking, great, I'm happy for you.  But please don't assume that's the case everywhere.  The level of service you get is largely dependent on the wing commander and his or her personal ethics.  It can change.

BTW, I see no one has addressed the issue brought up in the NOTF thread, that CAP-USAF (Col Russ Hodgkins) reported to Congress for FY 2006 that CAP as an organization had achieved "unqualified audit status". 
http://www.cap.gov/documents/2006_CAP_Annual_Report_To_Congress_lorespdf.pdf
Since at that point in time only VAWG had fully converted to wing banking, how was this possible?  The answer must be that wing banking is not required to achieve unqualified audit status for CAP. Which is what many of us have been saying all along...

[mikeylikey]

Since at that point in time only VAWG had fully converted to wing banking, how was this possible?  The answer must be that wing banking is not required to achieve unqualified audit status for CAP. Which is what many of us have been saying all along...

You are correct.  It is not required for an unqualified audit.  It is in place to make it easier on the paid NHQ employees.  All they have to do is visit each state ONCE per year, see that the money is accounted for in one place and go back to the party at Maxwell. 

I would also like to know what event or events brought the original Virginia solution to light in Virginia?  Was there huge theft?  Was there hundreds of thousands missing?  Enquiring minds would like to know the dirty Virginia Wing secrets that got us all on board the program!

[RiverAux]

Uh, the money "loaned" to Hawk Mountain could have come from the general wing funds in the account.  Wing can use that money as it sees fit within the regulations.  Now, if they went beyond the Wing's money and dipped into the squadron accounts, that would be a problem. 

[ELTHunter]

Isn't that what reimbursement means?

Reimbursement for ground teams for small one day missions isn't a big deal, maybe we're out $30 for gas and oil.  For pilots, at least in some wings, it's another matter altogather.  They may spend hundreds of dollars for fuel and it may not be reimbursed for weeks or months.  In the event of a major hurricane or something where members are asked to respond hundreds of miles away, it also is an undue hardship.  It could cost hundreds of dollars in fuel, supplies and lodging to volunteer for the missions that CAP is selling FEMA and 1st AF that we can do.

Other agencies have credit cards or procurement cards that can be used in these situations as long as the required back up documentation is presented to verify the purchase.  In our case, we have to foot the bill and hope we get the money back some time.

When I travel for my job, I may spend hundreds of dollars on airfair, lodging and meals.  However, I always get the money reimbursed before the credit card bill arrives.  In CAP, that is the exception rather than the rule.

All I'm saying is that this program has the POTENTIAL to be another way to take advantage of the membership who is already donating time, energy and money that isn't reimburseable.

Seems to me if the problem with getting an unqualified audit was due to the vast amounts of money being held at the local unit level, they could have changed the regulations to state that funds not obtained from local, state or government sources and held by local units was not going to be considered CAP funds.  Maybe set a dollar limit.  It seems a moot point any way because the squadrons will never see any of the money that will be obtained from these large corporate grants.  It's mixing apples and oranges.

Just another example of NHQ trying to make things simpler and better at the top and harder on the folks that actually do the work.

Tags - MIKE

[ELTHunter]

Never, ever keep a cash drawer at the squadron.   That will get you in big trouble.

CAPR 173-1, 5 (h).  Units will not establish or maintain petty cash accounts. Reimbursement for out of pocket expenditures will be made by check.

So what if a squadron keeps a small "store" with cadet rank insignia, patches, cut outs and other uniform items on hand so cadets don't have to order a $4 item from vanguard and wait a month for it to come in.  When cadets buy $10 worth of stuff, how's that money supposed to be handled?  By the letter of the regulations, if I keep a cash box in the drawer to make change and keep receipts in until I place another $50 order to Vanguard, I'm technically breaking the regulations.  Under the WBP, I gotta go deposit the $10 in the Wing bank.  Turn around and order the items that I just sold, and then turn in a request to Wing to get reimbursed.  Are you telling me that makes sense and is more efficient?

[RiverAux]

Other agencies have credit cards or procurement cards that can be used in these situations as long as the required back up documentation is presented to verify the purchase.  In our case, we have to foot the bill and hope we get the money back some time.

That is just your wing.  Other wings have credit cards in the plane for use for fuel. 

[ELTHunter]

Other agencies have credit cards or procurement cards that can be used in these situations as long as the required back up documentation is presented to verify the purchase.  In our case, we have to foot the bill and hope we get the money back some time.

That is just your wing.  Other wings have credit cards in the plane for use for fuel. 

Actually, TNWG does use multi-service cards, but I have heard horror stories about some other wings.  Was thinking more about big HLS or disaster missions.

[mikeylikey]

Never, ever keep a cash drawer at the squadron.   That will get you in big trouble.

CAPR 173-1, 5 (h).  Units will not establish or maintain petty cash accounts. Reimbursement for out of pocket expenditures will be made by check.

So what if a squadron keeps a small "store" with cadet rank insignia, patches, cut outs and other uniform items on hand so cadets don't have to order a $4 item from vanguard and wait a month for it to come in.  When cadets buy $10 worth of stuff, how's that money supposed to be handled?  By the letter of the regulations, if I keep a cash box in the drawer to make change and keep receipts in until I place another $50 order to Vanguard, I'm technically breaking the regulations.  Under the WBP, I gotta go deposit the $10 in the Wing bank.  Turn around and order the items that I just sold, and then turn in a request to Wing to get reimbursed.  Are you telling me that makes sense and is more efficient?

Good question.  Get a parent, or non CAP member to start the cash drawer.  When questioned about the money (which you should not be if you take the cash home with you after meetings) tell them Cadet Snuffy's mother started that, it is not the SQD's. 

[lordmonar]

I think that is one thing the wing banking program will have to fix.

There IS a need to have SOME cash on hand.

But!

There is always a BUT!

At this point in time....we have to head off those who would try to use their "soda fund" or "Company store" to stash away a lot of money they are scared that wing may steal from them.

The USAF deals with this from time to time....there are some big squadrons out there with multiple shops that have some really large soda funds.  PACAF a number of years ago had to write a reg limiting them to under $500 in cash and murchandise.  Because the IG found that there were soda funds in PACAF that had $20,000 in their tills and storage lockers.

So...bottom line....don't try to cercuvent the Wing Banker Program.  Get with your Wing CC and help him hack out a local regulation that will allow you to keep some money on hand for change and such. 

But be careful that you don't cross that line and start running your squadron out of your soda fund.

Just my $.02

[RiverAux]

Just my $.02

Did it come from the soda fund or the Wing account? 

[RiverAux]

It just isn't potential non-governmental donars that care about how CAP squadrons spend their money.  This was mentioned as an issue in a GAO audit of CAP in 2003. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04183r.pdf which said, in part,:

The audit report for fiscal year 2001 included the auditors' opinion that with one exception, the financial statements of the corporation were presented fairly in accordance with U.S. generally accepted accounting principles. The exception related to units below wing level not being audited and not being included in these financial statements. The exception is discussed in the notes to the financial statements and in the auditors' report.

[mikeylikey]

Yes that was from 2003!  For an audit from 2001!!  They recommended no changes and there were NO changes as a result.  We have only had the Wing Banker Solution for one year.  You can not tell me that the Virginia Plan was due in large part to the report you quoted.  Virginia SCREWED up, so we all have their solution pushed on us, even though the majority of units were doing the right thing.

[RiverAux]

I'd say that a statement in your audit that your accounting practices are okay except for the fact that you can't account for money below Wing level is obviously a problem.  Keep in mind that this audit was made during a time when squadrons were supposedly providing all this information to Wing and National and obviously that wasn't working. 

Wing Banker is just the latest attempt to fix the problem. 

[Galahad]

"Civil Air Patrol, Inc. has never received an "Unqualified" annual audit from its external audit firm. A "Qualified" audit report shows weaknesses exist and our Corporation was noted for funds at the unit level that are not audited. The Board of Governors recommended that Civil Air Patrol obtain an unqualified audit opinion as soon as possible. The most cost effective way to obtain an unqualified opinion is to audit the unit funds at the wing level."  ... Maj. Gen Antonio Pineda, 21 Sep 2006, MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP REGION AND WING COMMANDERS, http://www.cap.gov/documents/National_Commander_Directive_Letter.pdf

"... Additionally, I am pleased to report CAP has continued to advance in fiscal accountability. For the first time since reorganization of Civil Air Patrol in 1995, outside auditors assessed an "unqualified" audit rating for CAP's annual financial statement in summer 2006. This high rating is the result of years of hard work by both CAP volunteers in the field and professional staff at CAP National Headquarters. The outcome of this effort is increased public trust in the organization."  ... Col. Russell D. Hodgkins Jr., CAP-USAF Commander, p. 39, CAP 2006 Annual Report to Congress, published ~31 Dec 2006. http://www.cap.gov/documents/2006_CAP_Annual_Report_To_Congress_lorespdf.pdf

The above two statements are mutually exclusive. One must be in error.  You be the judge.

[MIGCAP]

1. The Wing Banker solution is not necessary to achieve an unqualified audit.  There are many many organizations which leave control of finds at a local level and receive unqualified audits all the time.  The issue is that CAP could not show where their money was, and probably still can't. The Wing Banker was a solution cooked up to remove control of money from squadrons and put it at Wings where Nat HQ could exert pressure to make the books balence.  There are many many possible solutions to the problem, Wing Banker was only one, and certainly not the best, but it was the easiest for National to demand, and everyting in CAP happens to make life easier for our paid folks and harder on the volunteers. 
2. Petty cash is a fact of life in most organizations, it works well if properly accounted for. Military units are in fact allowed to do it with non-appropriated funds. National does not trust us to do it with dues and local funds, since again their interest is in self sustainment and not the volunteers.
3. The nasty fact is that if units did not submit their financial statements under the old system, or if the ones submitted did not add up, they should have had their Charters pulled, but nobody had the nerve to do that.
4. The real problem is that we have a huge paid staff that exists to serve themselves and offload work on the volunteers. They pick the easiest way to meet what the lawyers and accountants want with that one goal in mind.

MIGCAP

[Skyray]

Galahad:

  The above two statements are mutually exclusive. One must be in error.  You be the judge.


You don't suspect that our intrepid leader would LIE to advance his agenda, do you?

[RiverAux]

Frankly, I don't really care whether we get a qualified or unqualified audit, thoughy if an unqualified audit helps us in some way, thats great.  What I care about is making sure all the money is properly accounted for.  The old system certainly was not working very well.  I'm not terribly worried about fraud with local money, though it does happend, I am more worried with plain old mismanagement and have seen it happen. 

I've been a treasurer of another organization that had about the same amount of cashflow as a typical CAP squadron and also been a CAP squadron commander and I know you have to be on top of your game to make sure every little penny is accounted for even when it isn't actually all that much money.  Since squadron commanders usually end up doing the accounting in addition to all their other work, I would have loved this system had it been in place when I had that job since it would have freed me up to focus on more important issues. 

[genejackson]

Well, I see this certainly has generated a significant amount of keyboard traffic and that is great to see.   To those of you who have had problems in the past due to fiscal issues, I'm genuinely sorry that has happened to you.  My only experience with CAP has been VAWG and the MER, and I have to say that I'm fortunate that this Wing has been nothing but outstanding to myself and my members.   In my professional life it is rule #1 - If you don't take care of the customers, somebody else will.  And I treat each and every patient as if they were family and I have to sit at the dinner table with them that night.   So, they get my full and undivided attention and I deal with whatever they bring me as a complaint with the same attention.   

As for my CAP members, it's the same thing - they get my full attention.   I recently contolled a quite large CAP operation.   12 pilots, 5 airplanes, 150+ flight hrs over 10 days flying.   $19,000.00 budget of which $5800 was accomodations/perdiem, etc.   Every member had their CAPF 108 submitted to Wing HQ within 24 hrs of receipt and all but one has already been reimbursed for their personal monies spent.   This one pilot was late in sending me his CAPF-108 so he owns this tardiness for reimbursement.   They were each reimbursed before their credit card bill came.

I try to do the very same thing for every mission I run as an IC, get the CAPF 108's to Wing HQ within 24 hrs of receipt and our people get reimbursed as quickly as possible.    In the past,  it hasn't been that quick, both here in VA and other Wings as I've read.   All we can do now is not look back and say it was this or that way in the past, what we need to do now is say how we are going to work better for our members.   

From what I'm seeing in a lot of posts,  it is (or has been) the exception and not the rule that members were reimbursed quickly.  Hopefully that will chage as CAP continues to grow and we see a positive change in our upper leadership and those changes effect better things down the command chains.  Wing Banker is one positive change I've seen happen for us and I hope that all other Wings find it equally positive for them.   With that said, I'm gonna close my participation in this thread and wish everyone a great day.   I'm off to pick some more boogers at work

Gene

[floridacyclist]

Never, ever keep a cash drawer at the squadron.   That will get you in big trouble.

CAPR 173-1, 5 (h).  Units will not establish or maintain petty cash accounts. Reimbursement for out of pocket expenditures will be made by check.

So what if a squadron keeps a small "store" with cadet rank insignia, patches, cut outs and other uniform items on hand so cadets don't have to order a $4 item from vanguard and wait a month for it to come in.  When cadets buy $10 worth of stuff, how's that money supposed to be handled?  By the letter of the regulations, if I keep a cash box in the drawer to make change and keep receipts in until I place another $50 order to Vanguard, I'm technically breaking the regulations.  Under the WBP, I gotta go deposit the $10 in the Wing bank.  Turn around and order the items that I just sold, and then turn in a request to Wing to get reimbursed.  Are you telling me that makes sense and is more efficient?

My wife was told that she would have to close her squadron store. No more sodas or insignia unless you fill out a form and send it off to disappear at Vanguard. Want something to drink? Bring it with you.

[jimmydeanno]

When I was in VAWG with the wing banker program, we could still operate our "snack fund."  The stipulation however, was that every night, after the meeting, the cash had to be removed from the box and deposited in the bank account.

We just told people to bring exact change (not that hard since a drink and candy bar was 1.00).  Even if people didn't bring exact change, by the 4th or 5th person, there was enough to make change for a 5...

[dwb]

The real problem is that we have a huge paid staff that exists to serve themselves and offload work on the volunteers. They pick the easiest way to meet what the lawyers and accountants want with that one goal in mind.

Although your whole post sounds like sour grapes, I'm going to throw the BS flag on this one point.

First off, given the size of our membership, the size of our paid NHQ staff that pushes all the paper is relatively small.  The CP shop, for instance, is three people.  Three people to create curriculum, oversee NCSAs, develop long-term plans for cadet programs, process milestone awards, implement NEC/NB policy, answer phone calls and E-mails from the field, etc.

That's a lot of work for three people.

My experience with the paid NHQ folks has been that they are 1. extremely helpful, and 2. doing the best they can with essentially shoestring budgets.  There's a reason changes to 39-1 take forever to work their way in to print; they've budgeted a slice of one person's time to work on it.

In short: I think you're absolutely wrong on the paid staff.  Not only that, but I think you're mischaracterizing their role in the organization.


Back on topic... my concern with Wing banker is that the NB will eventually vote to allow Wing CCs to raid unit funds.  I think it's only a matter of time before the "priorities of the Wing" take precedence and they steal the $500 that some squadron has worked hard to raise.

[jimmydeanno]

^

[lordmonar]

Back on topic... my concern with Wing banker is that the NB will eventually vote to allow Wing CCs to raid unit funds.  I think it's only a matter of time before the "priorities of the Wing" take precedence and they steal the $500 that some squadron has worked hard to raise.

Yes...but the NB has ALWAYS had that power.  Before wing banking, "squadron" money was "CAP" money.  The wing could have demanded it for other purposes.

But let's assume for a moment that this does happen....should not the "priorities of the wing" take precedence?  I mean someone really needs a new L-per and the Homer J. Simpson Squadron has a butt load of extra cash in its account.....why not help the new little squadron who has nothing?

I don't really see a problem with doing that.  I mean we are all one team aren't we?

[jimmydeanno]

Ahhh...but then where is the incentive for the "small poor squadron" to do some fundraising?

If the rich squadron has a whole lot of money, it was probably because they took the time to invest their time so that they didn't have to worry about finances.  It is a fiscally responsible squadron that balances their squadron needs with their income...

I for one would be rather unhappy if I spent 48 hours working an airshow for some cash for the squadron, only to have the wings say "well, such and such squadron needs new tires for their van...so we noticed you guys have a bunch of money from that airshow, so...we'll take that."

Its not that squadrons are "poor" because they can't get money, its because they don't put the effort in to earn the money.  It may be tough, but it is possible...

[dwb]

Yes...but the NB has ALWAYS had that power.

Except that it's a lot easier now.

But let's assume for a moment that this does happen....should not the "priorities of the wing" take precedence?

Maybe.  I remember times when NYWG was in financial distress, but it was due to mismanagement, and I don't want money a squadron worked hard to raise taken away because of Wing mismanagement.

Besides, what if Homer J. Simpson Squadron was saving that money for cadet encampment scholarships?  Now C/CMSgt ComesFromAPoorFamily will not be able to get his Mitchell, because his Wing was incapable of planning for new SAR equipment purchases.  Do you want to call his mom and explain that to her?

[MIGCAP]

First off, given the size of our membership, the size of our paid NHQ staff that pushes all the paper is relatively small. 

Yes, it is small, however the issue is that instead of doing what the volunteer staff tells them to do they are developing policy (our job), writting requirements, (our job), tasking their workers (us).  The problem is that the roles are 100% backwards, they are there do do what the volunteers (read real CAP) tell them to do, not to tell us what to do.  They should be the administrative staff to impliment what the vols say to, not the policy definers who tell us what to do.

My experience with the paid NHQ folks has been that they are 1. extremely helpful, and 2. doing the best they can with essentially shoestring budgets.  There's a reason changes to 39-1 take forever to work their way in to print; they've budgeted a slice of one person's time to work on it.

In short: I think you're absolutely wrong on the paid staff.  Not only that, but I think you're mischaracterizing their role in the organization.


Please do not take my comments as a personal attack on the folks, I have worked with many of them who are excellent.  I believe the mischaracterization is that we have the support dog wagging the operational tail. I do not want policy, procedures, and operational concepts designed by folks who have not be at a mission base, spoken to a cadet, driven a CAP vehicle, etc.  in 20 years, and that is where we are today. I want this outfit run by the folks who do the work, not those who create it.

[jimmydeanno]

How do you figure that the paid NHQ staff tells us what to do?  How do you figure that they are creating policy, etc...?

Take the CP staff for instance.

They develop cirriculum, because, frankly, most of our volunteers are not cirriculum developers and really have no concept on how to do that.  However, they get approval to do so.  The members scream and yell about how crappy the cadet leadership books are, so the NHQ staff gets tasked with writing new ones...

NCSAs are directed by a volunteer, however, NHQ provides SUPPORT from NHQ staffers.

Regulation re-writes come from decisions from the NB - not decisions from paid NHQ staffers.  People complain that regulations and manuals aren't updated in time or are out of date, etc. but the NHQ staffers do a lot and they tend to be on the bottom of their priority list.

"Hmmm, should I organize IACE, nah, I'll incorporate the newest policy letter into 39-1..."

You figure, they are re-writing the CP leadership manuals, traveling to conferences to help train the volunteers, organizing and planning for 30 NCSAs, IACE, working with AF personnel, making budgets, re-developing all the PD courses, etc.

No offense to you, but most of the stuff the volunteers try tocome up with in terms of a professional, well thought out, well implemented program, that can work on the national scale is crap.  The typical volunteer has NO concept of how to create things that apply on a large scale or have any concept of anything the staffers do.

I hate to tell you this, but CAP IS run by the volunteers, not the paid personnel.  However, there are many positions in CAP that can not be filled with a volunteer because volunteers really have no accountability, not enough time, etc.  You need someone who can do CAP full-time.

I think you have a complete misconception about the role of the NHQ staffers.  I do not believe that it is the NHQ staffers that don't understand their role, but you don't understand theirs.

[Skyray]

Over the years, the only paid staff I have ever had contact with is Susie Parker, who does exactly what she is told by the elected "leadership."  Occasionally she has the grace to apologize when she knows what they are doing is wrong, but she always does it.  That is good staff.

[floridacyclist]

When I was in VAWG with the wing banker program, we could still operate our "snack fund."  The stipulation however, was that every night, after the meeting, the cash had to be removed from the box and deposited in the bank account.

We just told people to bring exact change (not that hard since a drink and candy bar was 1.00).  Even if people didn't bring exact change, by the 4th or 5th person, there was enough to make change for a 5...

So how did they buy drinks and stuff for the next meeting if all the money was deposited? Did you have to invoice the wing for $20.00 to replenish the supplies?

[davedove]

When I was in VAWG with the wing banker program, we could still operate our "snack fund."  The stipulation however, was that every night, after the meeting, the cash had to be removed from the box and deposited in the bank account.

We just told people to bring exact change (not that hard since a drink and candy bar was 1.00).  Even if people didn't bring exact change, by the 4th or 5th person, there was enough to make change for a 5...

So how did they buy drinks and stuff for the next meeting if all the money was deposited? Did you have to invoice the wing for $20.00 to replenish the supplies?

It would probably have to work like this.  One person (or a group) would have to buy the snacks up front, estimating how much would be needed for that one meeting.  At the end of the meeting, those who contributed would take their costs out of the pot and the remainder would be deposited.

This method would really destroy any accountability of the snack fund however.  The only way to preserve accountability would be to deposit all the proceeds, and those who contributed would have to submit for reimbursement.

[jimmydeanno]

The way we did it is this...

1) Supply guy buys snacks and sodas (aproximately $200.00 worth)

2) Supply guy stocks fridge.

3) Supply guy submits reciepts to squadron finance officer.

4) Finance officer fills out check request form for total of supply guy's reciepts.

5) Finance officer gets necessary signatures and scans check request and copy of reciept to wing.

6) Wing person opens e-mail, prints check request and inputs data in accounting software.

7) Wing person prints check from accounting software and gets signatures as needed (usually once per week during wing staff meeting).

8) Wing person mails check to supply guy.

9) Supply guy gets check and cashes it.

10) In the meantime, squadron people buy snacks with exact change or make a "donation" - we didn't do IOUs...

11) At the end of the night, money collected from snack sales is totaled by finance officer.

12) Deposit slip is written.

13) Finance officer deposits money into bank account at local branch of where the wing account is...

14) Finance officer scans and sends deposit slip to wing (keeping the original at the squadron).

15) Wing adds amount to squadrons total in accounting software.

16) Wing sends a monthly statement, just like the bank to the squadron via e-mail.

17) Finance officer confirms everything is correct and notifies wing of other errors.

Disabled smileys -MIKE

[mikeylikey]

^  Too much work!

I go to the Commissary once a month, usually during their case lot sale.  I buy sodas and snacks, sell them at each meeting.  I take my share of profit (from what I paid for the items) and the rest goes to the SQD at the end of the month.  No need to make weekly deposits.  I call it a "donation" each month.  I make a total of $350.00 and invested an original $175.00  I should expand to other local SQDS!!!!

[ELTHunter]

The way we did it is this...

1) Supply guy buys snacks and sodas (aproximately $200.00 worth)

2) Supply guy stocks fridge.

3) Supply guy submits reciepts to squadron finance officer.

4) Finance officer fills out check request form for total of supply guy's reciepts.

5) Finance officer gets necessary signatures and scans check request and copy of reciept to wing.

6) Wing person opens e-mail, prints check request and inputs data in accounting software.

7) Wing person prints check from accounting software and gets signatures as needed (usually once per week during wing staff meeting).

Wing person mails check to supply guy.

9) Supply guy gets check and cashes it.

10) In the meantime, squadron people buy snacks with exact change or make a "donation" - we didn't do IOUs...

11) At the end of the night, money collected from snack sales is totaled by finance officer.

12) Deposit slip is written.

13) Finance officer deposits money into bank account at local branch of where the wing account is...

14) Finance officer scans and sends deposit slip to wing (keeping the original at the squadron).

15) Wing adds amount to squadrons total in accounting software.

16) Wing sends a monthly statement, just like the bank to the squadron via e-mail.

17) Finance officer confirms everything is correct and notifies wing of other errors.

Disabled smileys -MIKE

OK, change $200 to $50 and tell me that sound efficient.  I'm not buying it.  The only reason it isn't wasting more than the $200 in staff time is because the staff is paid.

[floridacyclist]

With 5 kids, the supply guy (gal in this case) better not be spending $200.00 on sodas and such.

[captrncap]

How long did the transition take from the SQ Bank Acct to Wing before any checks could be written?

NYWG is doing this with the last SQ check written on 15 Aug.

When can the check request be submitted to wing (after the deposit has been made into the WG acct).

[jimmydeanno]

^we had a period of about 30 days transition - for all the old account checks to clear and get the new one ready to go. 

In your case, I can't say specifically, it would have to be a time determined by a) your bank and b) the wing person setting it up. 

[ZigZag911]

In NJ the groups were given 90-120 days (roughly Jan 1-Apr 15); the squadrons were notified at roughly the same time that their deadline was in August (I forget exact date), so they had months to prepare.

[ADCAPer]

So...bottom line....don't try to cercuvent the Wing Banker Program.  Get with your Wing CC and help him hack out a local regulation that will allow you to keep some money on hand for change and such. 

Nice try, but all you're doing is attempting to circumvent the system yourself by assuming that a Wing CC can simply re-write the rules to make them less restrictive. The time to campaign for exceptions would have been during the re-write, but since National simply forced that through with no review we are all stuck with it.

If you read 173-1 you will find:

4. Wing Banking.
a. ... Once a wing has been selected to implement the Wing Banker Program, participation by units below wing level within that wing is mandatory. ...

So, you have no choice but to participate.

8. Deposits. All unit funds will be deposited in the name of the CAP unit. Units will maintain copies of all deposit slips. Funds should be deposited daily, if possible. Units participating in the Wing Banker Program must deposit funds into the unit checking account maintained by the wing. ...

Notice that the wording is "will", not may or should, but "will"

And finally,

19. Financial Noncompliance. Units that fail to comply with any portion of this regulation may be subjected to disciplinary or administrative action including deactivation by the wing commander.

[mikeylikey]

.....may be subjected to disciplinary or administrative action including deactivation by the wing commander.

I doubt they are going to start shutting SQD's down.  That would be AWESOME PR, and surely drive the recruiting campaign. 

I don't like the banker program, but it really is how chain restaurants and chain retail stores do operate.  IT has been around for some time, and I am guessing someone in VA Wing was a retail store manager and just copied the program.

[ADCAPer]

Back on topic... my concern with Wing banker is that the NB will eventually vote to allow Wing CCs to raid unit funds.  I think it's only a matter of time before the "priorities of the Wing" take precedence and they steal the $500 that some squadron has worked hard to raise.

Yes...but the NB has ALWAYS had that power.  Before wing banking, "squadron" money was "CAP" money.  The wing could have demanded it for other purposes.

But let's assume for a moment that this does happen....should not the "priorities of the wing" take precedence?  I mean someone really needs a new L-per and the Homer J. Simpson Squadron has a butt load of extra cash in its account.....why not help the new little squadron who has nothing?

I don't really see a problem with doing that.  I mean we are all one team aren't we?

No, they ALWAYS operated under that assumption, but if they had directed a unit to simply surrender locally generated funds they would have found out in a hurry that there is in fact a difference between locally obtained funds and appropriated funds. The fact is that they have always had the "authority" to demand them, but they didn't have the "ability" to do it.

And yes, we may be one team, but if the Wing has priorities then they need to use their APPROPRIATED FUNDS from the states and the feds to take care of their priorities, not the locally generated funds that a squadron raises to support themselves.

And besides, if a little squadron needs help then they should call their Group Commander, or they can ask another unit directly if they could help them out, but the Wings should not ever have the ability to simply redistribute funds that a squadron has raised.

[jimmydeanno]

If you are really that worried about your funds being "confiscated," all you need to do is make sure whoever is donating the money earmarks it for your squadron's use only.

If someone says, I'll donate $100.00 to Civil Air Patrol as long as it is used to pay for a cadet from "X" squadron to go to encampment, that is what it must be used for if the donation is accepted. 

So, if you're running a snack fund, one could assume that if they put on the collection jar - all profits from snack fund will be used to benefit the "X" squadron, people are making the "donation" under the assumption that the profits will be used locally - therefore, earmarking them for your use.

(Not a banker or Finance officer, but if I read the rules right, it should be able to work that way...)

[ADCAPer]

If you are really that worried about your funds being "confiscated," all you need to do is make sure whoever is donating the money earmarks it for your squadron's use only.

There is absolutely nothing in either CAPR 173-1 or CAPR 173-4 which allows for "earmarks". Any funds you acquire, either through your soda fund, or a donation are accepted in the name of CAP, not a local unit. And I'm sure you know that that's what you have to tell them when they donate the funds, that's why National provides that nice form letter in 173-4.

I agree with you completely, any funds you raise locally should be yours, and you shouldn't have to surrender them to the Wing Bank and then "request" to use your own money. As I've mentioned on this board before, there is absolutely nothing to stop National from doing another re-write of the financial regulation and suddenly allowing the Wing to reallocate your funds as they see fit. Don't believe it? Research the last couple of re-writes of 173-1, they were done under the table without the proper review and simply forced down everyone's throat without being properly vetted.

In reality National has always had implied control over any and all funds that a unit raised, or received to support their local unit, but National didn't have the ability to get at the funds. With Wing Banking this is no longer the case. All units are now just one supplement away from losing control of their funds, and how much do you think you're going to be receiving then?

[jimmydeanno]

It is a legal issue at that point.  If I donate $500.00 dollars to a squadron scholarship fund and the donation is accepted with those terms and the money isn't used that way, it becomes fraud.

We work the same way for logistical donations.  If someone donates the squadron a stokes litter for the squadron use and the wing "aquires" it - the donation isn't being used as accepted, the donater can request the litter back.

So unless the organization wants to "lose" donations that have already been accepted and earmarked as such, they "can't" use the money elsewhere other than what it was designated for.

[Grumpy]

Money!  What money?  Our squadron's so poor we can't afford a down payment on a free lunch.

[ADCAPer]

It is a legal issue at that point.  If I donate $500.00 dollars to a squadron scholarship fund and the donation is accepted with those terms and the money isn't used that way, it becomes fraud.

It's not a legal issue, but it is an ethical one that has been discussed on this board before. If your Wing confiscates any of your funds then you should try to take action against them, but they are going to win in the end, because the CAP Constitution will support them.

IAW with CAPR 173-4, if you receive a donation of more than $250 then you have to provide the donor with a copy of the letter from 173-4. There is nothing in that letter that allows any donation to be targeted to a specific unit or function; it is received by the corporation.

Additionally, in the CAP Constitution, ARTICLE XVII, FUNDS AND PROPERTY:

... All funds and property acquired by Civil Air Patrol in any manner and from whatever sources shall be received in the name of Civil Air Patrol and shall become the property of the Corporation, and shall be administered and accounted for as prescribed in the Bylaws and regulations.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As of this minute, it would technically be illegal for National or the Wing to do anything with your unit funds that are in the Wing Bank without your approval, but since CAP as a Corporation actually owns all things CAP, you'd never make a case. And you gave your donors a letter saying that they were donating to the Corporation, not to your unit.

Now consider this, National re-wrote CAPR 173-1 not once, but twice in the space of a few months last year. On both occasions it was done in violation of the regulations, and was never posted for review by the members. Then they used that regulation to have the Wing CC's ram Wing Banking down the throats of the local units by threatening them with everything from suspension of members to suspension of unit charters if they didn't comply immediately.

So, why would they worry about re-writing the regulation one more time to make the seizure of all local funds legal? Now they have them, and with a few clicks of the leyboard they can just take them.

[Skyray]

This is not a new issue.  Donations to CAP have always been required to be accepted in the name of the corporation, and more than once I have seen the corporation, in the persona of Wing, take those funds.  There is a fairly simple solution.  The corporation doesn't like it, but it is perfectly legal and there is not much they can do about it.  Form a not-for-profit and qualify it under the IRS regs--it is really not difficult.  Then when you have a potential donor explain to him the facts of life that his donation may go to east Quarentine, Idaho and if he wants it to stay here and benefit the locals, he should donate to your not-for profit.  I am the resident agent for the Florida Air Patrol, a local not-for-profit we formed years ago.

[RiverAux]

Forming a non-profit to support a local chapter of a national non-profit corporation just seems silly in order to avoid a contingency that COULD happen but has not ever happened to just about anyone. 

Plus, I don't see how you could legally utilize money from a separate non-profit for CAP squadron needs without having to give it to the corporation anyway. 

[JC004]

Forming a non-profit to support a local chapter of a national non-profit corporation just seems silly in order to avoid a contingency that COULD happen but has not ever happened to just about anyone. 

Plus, I don't see how you could legally utilize money from a separate non-profit for CAP squadron needs without having to give it to the corporation anyway. 

CAPR 173-4, CAP/CC Letter, Changes in Financial Policy Regards Gaming & Booster Clubs

b. Booster Clubs. CAP policy regarding "booster clubs," organizations created
to support local units, is being formulated. However, the fundamental policies are set
out below. Those policies identified with an asterisk (*) only apply to booster clubs
formed after this date:

(1) Parents, community leaders, and CAP members may create booster
clubs to support local units. Such booster clubs must exist as entities wholly
separate and apart from any CAP control and bear sole responsibility for compliance
with local, state, and federal laws.

(2*) CAP corporate officers, commanders, and executives (managerial employees)
are prohibited from participating in the creation, organization, or control (serving in positions
of authority) in these organizations. Serving in an advisory capacity, to report on the status,
needs, and wants of a unit and its members, is acceptable.

(3*) Booster clubs may not utilize the names "Civil Air Patrol" or "United States Air
Force Auxiliary," or any abbreviation thereof as part of their names or identification.
(4*) Subject to the approval of the unit commander, booster clubs may use the name
of the unit as part of their names or identification. For example, "Friends of Wright Brothers
Composite Squadron 123" would be acceptable.

(5) Serving concurrently in positions of control in CAP (CAP corporate officers,
commanders, and executives (managerial employees)) and a "booster club" is prohibited.
Those presently serving concurrent positions of control in such organizations must cease
doing so no later than 31 March 2007.

[ADCAPer]

From the State of Alabama. I haven't checked every state, but the ones I have all had similar statements in their state banking laws.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 5-1A-3
Use of words "bank," "banker," "banking," etc., restricted.

The use of the words "bank," "banker," "banking" or words of similar meaning in any foreign language as a designation or name, or as part of a designation or name, under which business is or may be conducted in the State of Alabama, or in its advertising is restricted to banking corporations organized under the laws of Alabama, other states, the United States or foreign countries. All other persons, firms, or corporations are prohibited from using the words "bank," "banker," or "banking" or words of similar meaning in any foreign language as a designation or name or as part of a designation or name under which business may be conducted in this state. Any violation of this prohibition shall subject the party chargeable therewith to a penalty of $100.00 for each day during which it is committed or repeated. Such penalty may be recovered by the superintendent by an action instituted for that purpose, and, in addition to said penalty, such violation may be enjoined and the injunction enforced as in other cases. This section shall not be applicable to any residents of this state regularly engaged in business in this state as individuals, partnerships, unincorporated associations or Alabama corporations now lawfully using such words in their trade or firm name.
(Acts 1980, No. 80-658, §5-1-3.)

[ZigZag911]

So I guess the name needs to be changed, at least in Alabama....now does that apply only to the wing & its subordinate units? I know NHQ is in Alabama, but it is on federal property, and is Incorporated I believe, in Delaware.

[Eclipse]

A rose, by any other name...

[ADCAPer]

So I guess the name needs to be changed, at least in Alabama....now does that apply only to the wing & its subordinate units? I know NHQ is in Alabama, but it is on federal property, and is Incorporated I believe, in Delaware.

Well, it's much more than a name change that needs to happen, and while they may be incorporated, they are not incorporated as a "Bank".

As I have pointed out before (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=908.msg35830#msg35830), if you approach an individual or more importantly an organization, or government agency and request financial support then you need to be prepared to fully disclose how those funds are accounted for and controlled.

I have been accused on this board of torpedoing my units funding source by revealing that under CAP's regulations all donations have to be surrendered to the "Wing Bank". The fact is (and below are some more examples) that the "Wing Bank" IS NOT a legal "bank" neither in my state, nor under any other states definition that I can find. It is merely a checking account, and the only protection it offers is to the signatories on the actual bank account. If you deposit funds in the wing bank that later turn up missing, there is no state or federal protection for your unit, because the laws only apply to the account holder, which is whoever the wing decides to assign. (I know, the regulations are supposed to protect you. Does anyone really want to debate what protection the regulations offer to your unit?)

What I do know is that in my state, especially in the situation where we stood to receive financial support from a taxpayer appropriated source, the fact that we were "giving" the money away was a deal breaker. But if we had failed to disclose that the Wing "Bank" was not a real bank, where we actually had control of the funds, we would have been guilty of fraud.

State of Georgia
§ 7-1-241.  Restrictions on engaging in banking business
(a) No person or corporation may lawfully engage in this state in the business of banking or receiving money for deposit or transmission or lawfully establish in this state a place of business for such purpose, except a bank, a national bank, a credit union to the extent provided in Article 3 of this chapter, a licensee engaged in selling checks to the extent permitted by Article 4 of this chapter, an international banking agency to the extent provided in Article 5 of this chapter, a building and loan association to the extent provided in Article 7 of this chapter, or a savings and loan association to the extent provided by the laws of the United States


State of Florida
(2)  No person other than a financial institution shall, in this state:
(a)  Transact business under any name or title that contains the words "bank," "banco," "banque," "banker," "banking," "trust company," "savings and loan association," "savings bank," or "credit union," or words of similar import, in any context or in any manner;

State of California
3390.  No person which has not received a certificate from the commissioner authorizing it to engage in the banking business shall solicit or receive deposits, issue certificates of deposit with or without provision for interest, make payments on check, or transact business in the way or manner of a commercial bank, industrial bank, or trust company.

[RiverAux]

Give me a break.  "Bank" is just being used as a term of convenience by CAP for this accounting program.  What they are doing is absolutely no different than how just about all businesses handle their money.  They aren't breaking any banking laws by doing so. 

[Pylon]

That law states you can't use the word "bank", "banker" or "banking" in the name of your business.  So we couldn't promote ourselves as the "Civil Banking Patrol" in Alabama.

The law doesn't mean that not a single organization in Alabama which is not an actual bank could use the word bank to refer to a policy or program.   

Out of context.

[RiverAux]

I guess I can't legally break the "bank" in Vegas next time...

[JC004]

So I guess the name needs to be changed, at least in Alabama....now does that apply only to the wing & its subordinate units? I know NHQ is in Alabama, but it is on federal property, and is Incorporated I believe, in Delaware.

I believe the incorporation is a federal thing. 

[NEBoom]

...So we couldn't promote ourselves as the "Civil Banking Patrol" in Alabama...

Um...  That would be the "U.S. Civil Banking Patrol"... 

[ZigZag911]

I believe the incorporation is a federal thing. 

While CAP is Congressionally chartered, I'm pretty sure that incorporation occurs at the state level only.

[JC004]

I believe the incorporation is a federal thing. 

While CAP is Congressionally chartered, I'm pretty sure that incorporation occurs at the state level only.

If it is in a state, it can't be Delaware, because the corporate seal doesn't meet the requirements.  Last time I incorporated something in DE, the guidelines for the seal stated that the state name has to be on there.  Maybe it's Nevada.  I think being incorporated in NV is almost as cool as being incorporated in DE, and the NB did seem to have a special liking for NV.   

Update
Scratch that...
"On 1 July 1946, Public Law 476, 79th Congress, 2nd Session, was signed into law. It incorporated the Civil Air Patrol and authorized the incorporators named therein to complete the organization of the corporation by the adoption of a constitution and by-laws and regulations, and by the selection of corporate officers, etc."

[ADCAPer]

Give me a break.  "Bank" is just being used as a term of convenience by CAP for this accounting program.  What they are doing is absolutely no different than how just about all businesses handle their money.  They aren't breaking any banking laws by doing so. 

Well, to begin with, there's no provision that I can find that gives exceptions for "convenience", and while CAP may be incorporated, I'm pretty sure that they are not incorporated as a "bank", which like it or not, is defined under state laws.

State of Alabama

Section 5-1A-3

Use of words "bank," "banker," "banking," etc., restricted.

The use of the words "bank," "banker," "banking" or words of similar meaning in any foreign language as a designation or name, or as part of a designation or name, under which business is or may be conducted in the State of Alabama, or in its advertising is restricted to banking corporations organized under the laws of Alabama, other states, the United States or foreign countries.

[RiverAux]

Don't you see that the law you're quoting is talking about using "bank" as part of the name of a business? 

It doesn't prohibit businesses from using the term as part of their own internal policies and procedures manual (which are esentially what CAP regulations are).

While I disagree with those who think this is some big scam on the part of NHQ to steal the money your squadron earned at the car wash, I do understand their concerns.  But, it definetely isnt illegal.   

[ADCAPer]

Don't you see that the law you're quoting is talking about using "bank" as part of the name of a business? 

No, its not. In order,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 5-1A-1

Short title.

Chapters 1A through 13B and Chapter 20 of this title shall be known and may be cited as the "Alabama Banking Code."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 5-1A-2

Definitions.

For the purposes of Chapters 1A through 12A of this title, the following terms shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them by this section:

(1) BANK. Any banking corporation or trust company organized under the laws of this state under the jurisdiction of the superintendent of banks of this state or organized under the laws of the United States having its principal place of business in this state.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 5-1A-3

Use of words "bank," "banker," "banking," etc., restricted.
The use of the words "bank," "banker," "banking" or words of similar meaning in any foreign language as a designation or name, or as part of a designation or name, under which business is or may be conducted in the State of Alabama, or in its advertising is restricted to banking corporations organized under the laws of Alabama, other states, the United States or foreign countries. All other persons, firms, or corporations are prohibited from using the words "bank," "banker," or "banking" or words of similar meaning in any foreign language as a designation or name or as part of a designation or name under which business may be conducted in this state. ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[RiverAux]

designation or name, or as part of a designation or name,

as a designation or name or as part of a designation or name under which business may be conducted in this state. ...

[lordmonar]

So the Red Cross can't maintain a blood "bank" in Alabama?  And flight schools can hold classes on "banks and turns"?

[Cecil DP]

So the Red Cross can't maintain a blood "bank" in Alabama?  And flight schools can hold classes on "banks and turns"?

I suppose seamboats can't tie up to the banks of the Mississippi

[Pylon]

"name under which business is conducted" means the name of the business.  Not names of internal programs, policies, documents, etc.

Again, as was stated earlier, we can't call ourselves the "U.S. Civil Banking Patrol" but we can have a program or a policy that uses the word bank.


To answer questions earlier about in which state we're incorporated, Civil Air Patrol, Inc. is federally chartered and incorporated.

[JC004]

...
Again, as was stated earlier, we can't call ourselves the "U.S. Civil Banking Patrol" but we can have a program or a policy that uses the word bank.
...

Brilliant!  I will forward this proposal to the National Board, for their recommendation to the BoG.

[RiverAux]

Forming a non-profit to support a local chapter of a national non-profit corporation just seems silly in order to avoid a contingency that COULD happen but has not ever happened to just about anyone. 

Plus, I don't see how you could legally utilize money from a separate non-profit for CAP squadron needs without having to give it to the corporation anyway. 

CAPR 173-4, CAP/CC Letter, Changes in Financial Policy Regards Gaming & Booster Clubs

b. Booster Clubs. CAP policy regarding "booster clubs," organizations created
to support local units, is being formulated. However, the fundamental policies are set
out below. Those policies identified with an asterisk (*) only apply to booster clubs
formed after this date:

(1) Parents, community leaders, and CAP members may create booster
clubs to support local units. Such booster clubs must exist as entities wholly
separate and apart from any CAP control and bear sole responsibility for compliance
with local, state, and federal laws.

(2*) CAP corporate officers, commanders, and executives (managerial employees)
are prohibited from participating in the creation, organization, or control (serving in positions
of authority) in these organizations. Serving in an advisory capacity, to report on the status,
needs, and wants of a unit and its members, is acceptable.

(3*) Booster clubs may not utilize the names "Civil Air Patrol" or "United States Air
Force Auxiliary," or any abbreviation thereof as part of their names or identification.
(4*) Subject to the approval of the unit commander, booster clubs may use the name
of the unit as part of their names or identification. For example, "Friends of Wright Brothers
Composite Squadron 123" would be acceptable.

(5) Serving concurrently in positions of control in CAP (CAP corporate officers,
commanders, and executives (managerial employees)) and a "booster club" is prohibited.
Those presently serving concurrent positions of control in such organizations must cease
doing so no later than 31 March 2007.

Interesting that Iowa Wing may be in violation of this:  http://www.iawg.cap.gov/foundation/home.html
Granted, Iowa Wing isn't terribly good at updating their web page and may have fixed these issues in real life...but, as the web page now stands they may or may not be improperly using CAP in the name (depends on which name they use on the page is the real one) and the Iowa Wing commander seems to be intergral in running it. 

I also wonder about a CAP foundation apparently set up in South Carolina...a news item on what may be an old version of their web page http://www.metromark.net/cap.htm has the following:

CAP Foundation
    A new CAP Foundation has been created to accept funds from any donor.  Get a donor in SC to give money to CAP by having the check sent to the CAP Foundation.   Your unit's account will be credited with this money.  This solves the problem of making sure the donor knows his or her gift is protected as a IRS 501(c)3 organization and is tax deductible to the full extent as allowed by law.

How does your local squadron or wing foundation stack up?