CSAG Agenda

[Майор Хаткевич]

They retain their grade and eventually either retire or recover, just like we do with Wing CCs and in the RM. It doesn't hurt us to have Lt Cols around who have contributed, it hurts us to have members around who never contribute.

Okay, so it is not XX hours to wing, but rather XX hours to CAP.  Who actually certifies these senior members are performing to the standard?

If we have members around who "never contribute", then why not transfer them to the 000 squadrons?

Padding numbers. Looking better than you really are. It happens all the time on the cadet side especially. Typical "dead weight" gets dropped after SoM/QUA are counted .

[LSThiker]

Padding numbers. Looking better than you really are. It happens all the time on the cadet side especially. Typical "dead weight" gets dropped after SoM/QUA are counted .

Again, who actually certifies these people are "dead weight"?  If a commander is purposefully using them to pad numbers, what makes you think that commander is not going to continue to pencil whip to pad the numbers, especially if he/she is "on the line" for charter numbers?

I am all for SM grade expectations, but without a system to enforce, those expectations simply                     .

[Eclipse]

Padding numbers. Looking better than you really are. It happens all the time on the cadet side especially. Typical "dead weight" gets dropped after SoM/QUA are counted .

Again, who actually certifies these people are "dead weight"?  If a commander is purposefully using them to pad numbers, what makes you think that commander is not going to continue to pencil whip to pad the numbers, especially if he/she is "on the line" for charter numbers?     

Generally it's the unit CC, but we need metrics, and I would also propose that the next echelon review the "active" roster of a given charter.

Right off the bat, anyone 000, Patron, or not safety current for "x" number of months could be eligible for Empty Shirt status.
Attendance records, which really should be kept, posted, and tracked somewhere for all members would be another way.

Can't make the meetings, but are running the website, and tracking personnel records? No harm, no foul, stay safety current
and all the CC has to do is justify your staying on the roster.

[Eclipse]

If we have members around who "never contribute", then why not transfer them to the 000 squadrons?

Many Regions no longer allow this - in far too many wings the 000 units were rapidly becoming the biggest unit in a given
wing. I know in my wing we can no longer push people to 000 without a legit reason such as a charter dissolving.

Otherwise they go patron and stay on the local unit's books.

Now, if someone can explain to me why there are Region 000 units, that would be interesting.

Frankly, I don't see why every wing needs 000 - this is a holdover from days of the reserve squadrons where
naysayers and members who can't work and play well would go and still be allowed to participate in
activities and progress at the whim of the Wing CC.  These "ad hoc" members tended to float around
wherever they felt like it with no actual commander to keep an eye on them.

There should be one national 000 - if someone needs to go in there, scan their file, upload it to eServices
and hit the transfer button.

[Eclipse]

I'd be totally on board with participation and performance expectations for grades.

As I've said before, it doesn't matter >why< you aren't there, you're either carrying a corner or you are not.

That doesn't mean not being compassionate about people's personal circumstances, but
whether you are too sick (long term), too busy, or too disinterested to be involved at a meaningful level
there is still work to be done and duties to perform, work generally dumped back on those "compassionate"
commanders who wind up allowing for everyone's circumstances, and then burning out and quitting.

How is this any different than the work generally dumped back on those commanders that have members simply quit?

Because when you leave an empty shirt posted to a given job, they still clock their TIG towards PD, etc., your roster
looks full, but no actual work is being done.

[SunDog]

Hold your fire! My hands are up! No intent to start a fight, but. . .

The thread leads me (subjectivly, I know) to think we should just dump rank for seniors.  I don't know how many other former military we have, but it would be kinda weird to be a 2Lt in CAP and a LtCol in one of the services. . .

When I walked in, as a pilot, I didn't know CAP had a rank structure, and didn't much care, etiher. Though it became a little awakwrd being the oldest 1Lt on the planet (at least I thought I was, at the time. I was wrong!)  Solved that ego issue by seldom wearing a CAP unifrom that included rank insignia.

But, back to the main event; why don't we drop the rank?  If we have to interface, with credibility, with other orgs, then just use our titles - Wing Comander, Wing DO, etc.?  Keep the Air Force uniforms, if you lke them, substitute another bling of some kind for the rank insignia?  Maybe go with something similiar to the Coast Guard Aux, where the "office" is indicated, instead of a rank?

[Eclipse]

INFORMATION PAPER ON SURROGATE PREDATOR (SP) PROGRAM
We need to stop calling it this.  It's an advanced sensor package, not a Predator.  ASP?

You are right it is not a "Predator" it is a Surrogate Predator.

If you were part of the program you would understand.

Perhaps if those who are part of the program, not to mention those drafting potential changes, actually
read their own documentation, they would understand.

The official name of the program, per 60-1 as well as the application instructions is:
Surrogate Remotely Piloted Aircraft (SRPA) not the "Surrogate Predator".

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R060_001_132EEB0197465.pdf
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/SRPA_Application_Instructions_80E31B01407A7.pdf

[lordmonar]

My rating still say SPMC and SPSO.

The guys at CSAG (the Group Commander BTW) were briefing on the Surrogate Predator Program.

And when we are at the hangar we call it the "SP" aircraft.

What they wrote in 60-1 and on that info sheet.....no one really cares about. 

Either way.....what YOU think about what we should be called has ZERO relevance.   Thanks for playing.

[Eclipse]

Hardkewl wins over common sense again.

[lordmonar]

Hardkewl wins over common sense again.

Again....you got no idea what you are talking about.  It's got nothing to do with "hardkewl" at all.  It is just what we call it.  I'm in the SP program.  No one....calls it the SUAV program.  Sure...that may be the official name.   No one calls it that.   Kind of like calling the BBDU....the BBDU....I don't know what the official name is....but we all call it the BBDU. 

[Eclipse]

Hardkewl wins over common sense again.

Again....you got no idea what you are talking about.  It's got nothing to do with "hardkewl" at all.  It is just what we call it.  I'm in the SP program.  No one....calls it the SUAV program.  Sure...that may be the official name.   No one calls it that.   Kind of like calling the BBDU....the BBDU....I don't know what the official name is....but we all call it the BBDU.

The official name of the BBDU is the "Blue Field Uniform".

Apparently attention to detail is not something "important" at Area 51 Composite.  It's one thing to not know, it's another to
hold onto incorrect terminology when you know the correct terms.

My rating still say SPMC and SPSO.

Really? Because that's not a "thing".  Might be time to reprint that 101 card.

All I see is GFMC, GFMP, & GFSO as SQTRs. And in OPS Quals it's a "Surrogate Unmanned Aerial System" this P-Word is
no where to be found. 

[lordmonar]

Okay....you caught me...yep it seems once again the Almighty Eclipse knows more about everything.

Yep....60-1 changed the terminology(sort of).  E-services has changed the terminology(sort of).

Yep that's telling to our level of attention to detail.

We are just so caught up in being cooler then you we don't care about that sort of thing.

Bottom line Eclipse.....is I'm in the program.....and you aren't you don't have a right to an opinion.

Thank you.   

[LSThiker]

Generally it's the unit CC, but we need metrics, and I would also propose that the next echelon review the "active" roster of a given charter.

Yup, and the reason for requiring Region to approve Lt Col was to prevent Wing from pencil whipping people.  We have seen how well that has worked.  Chances are, a majority of commanders below region are also going to be more worried about the number of people on the books.  Granted not all as in maybe TX, CA, FL but the smaller wings probably.

Right off the bat, anyone 000, Patron, or not safety current for "x" number of months could be eligible for Empty Shirt status.

Patrons are by definition empty shirts.  They are people willing to give money to CAP but cannot support it as a full member.  They cannot participate in any CAP except conferences, cannot complete PD, cannot ride in vehicles/airplanes, etc.  That would make zero sense dropping a person willing to pay money. 

I would agree that a person not current in safety for "X" number of months would be eligible for Empty Shirt status.  That provision is essentially already in CAPR 39-2.

Can't make the meetings, but are running the website, and tracking personnel records? No harm, no foul, stay safety current and all the CC has to do is justify your staying on the roster.

So again, what prevents the commander from pencil whipping the records again?  All that commander has to do is say, well Member X helps track the roster or helps with X, Y, and Z. 

Many Regions no longer allow this - in far too many wings the 000 units were rapidly becoming the biggest unit in a given
wing. I know in my wing we can no longer push people to 000 without a legit reason such as a charter dissolving.

I would like to see a region's or wing's written guidance mandating commanders not transfer to a 000 squadron?  In fact, I would actually like to see how many "many" really is.  To me, this sounds like a failed wing leadership.

Because when you leave an empty shirt posted to a given job, they still clock their TIG towards PD, etc., your roster
looks full, but no actual work is being done.

Other than the TIG, which can be taken care by transferring a person to Patron, are again non-issues in this sense.  The roster will only look full if you add them to your organizational chart.  No actual work being done is true regardless of whether or not they are on the books. 

So far, I see no real system of enforcement.

[SunDog]

Geez, guys, paint it pink and call it Mary; a mildly interesting niche, good for helping big blue and some good PR for CAP. Mostly irrelevant to CAP as a whole, like us east guys acting as clay pigeons.  We aren't gonna make a living on either mission. . .CAP is likely in the aer-i-al photo-graph business for earning its keep, going forward.

[lordmonar]

Geez, guys, paint it pink and call it Mary; a mildly interesting niche, good for helping big blue and some good PR for CAP. Mostly irrelevant to CAP as a whole, like us east guys acting as clay pigeons.  We aren't gonna make a living on either mission. . .CAP is likely in the aer-i-al photo-graph business for earning its keep, going forward.

You are right....I took this too far and too personally.

Eclipse...I apologize.  You do have a right to your opinion.   The Green Flag program is something I am very passionate about.  I have dedicated four years of my CAP time to it.   I get a little unreasonable about defending it.  Sorry.

[Eclipse]

Great, now you tell me.  Now I have to go out to the curb and get all my opinions back!

I hope the junk guys haven't come by already...

[Panache]

If we have members around who "never contribute", then why not transfer them to the 000 squadrons?

Many Regions no longer allow this - in far too many wings the 000 units were rapidly becoming the biggest unit in a given wing. I know in my wing we can no longer push people to 000 without a legit reason such as a charter dissolving.

We've been flat-out told that we can not transfer empty shirt members to 000 without a signed and certified order from the Almighty Himself.

But, back to the main event; why don't we drop the rank?  If we have to interface, with credibility, with other orgs, then just use our titles - Wing Comander, Wing DO, etc.?  Keep the Air Force uniforms, if you lke them, substitute another bling of some kind for the rank insignia?  Maybe go with something similiar to the Coast Guard Aux, where the "office" is indicated, instead of a rank?

I'm made that suggestion already.  Personally, I think all members should hold duel grades: a permanent grade that represents your progress in the PD program (starting at WO1 and ending at CWO5) and if you're currently holding a staff or command position, you'll temporarily hold the appropriate grade for that position (O2 for Deputy Squadron CC, O3 for Squadron CC, O4 for Group CC, etc.)  Once you are no longer serving in that staff or command position, you no longer have the "O" grade.  But the "WO" grade is yours forever, and is what you'll you'll use when not actively serving in a command or staff position.

Want to give up the rat-race and serve coffee at the local squadron meeting?  Sure thing.  Just trade in your silver bottlecaps for whatever WO insignia is appropriate.

[a2capt]

There's noting wrong with rank system the way it is. It's CAP grade. Not USAF, not USA, not USMC .. not anything else.

We're not the only organization that uses a similar system outside of the armed forces.

The moment you realize that it's CAP grade and nothing else, the confusion is over. Deal with the violators, not the whole system.

[Panache]

The moment you realize that it's CAP grade and nothing else, the confusion is over. Deal with the violators, not the whole system.

Sure, we can tell the CAP membership to "deal with it", but what about everybody else we interact with?

When they see a certain grade insignia, they have certain expectations from that person.  That's a fact.

And while we're not the only organization outside the armed forces which uses a similar system, I can't think of any which allows you to keep the grade title when you're not actually doing a job or function which would be normal for that grade title.

Scenario:  Podunk Composite Squadron invites a Army LTC who's the uncle of the cadets to come in and give a lecture or presentation.  He arrives and the Squadron's CC, 1st Lt. Goodguy, greets him.

Eventually, the good LTC notices the CAP Lt. Col. in the background, making the coffee and handing out slices of cake.  "Oh, is that the.... what do you guys call it, the Wing Commander?" the LTC asks.  No, that's Lt. Colonel Silverhair.  He's a member of our squadron.  "What does he do?" asks the LTC.  Oh, nothing much, just helps out here and there...

...what sort of impression do you think that leaves?

[SarDragon]

A five minute chat usually clears everything up. I've never seen any problem with situations that you speak of. We show up, do our jobs, go home. Rinse, repeat.