CSAG Agenda

[Eclipse]

Target designation in COMBAT training isn't exactly a traditional
CAP mission.

How many times have the ASPs been used for real CAP
missions like SAR/DR?

[PHall]

Target designation in COMBAT training isn't exactly a traditional
CAP mission.

We did target towing in WWII.

How many times have the ASPs been used for real CAP
missions like SAR/DR?

How many times have they been requested?

[Eclipse]

Yeah we bombed subs, too. So?

[lordmonar]

Target designation in COMBAT training isn't exactly a traditional
CAP mission.

How many times have the ASPs been used for real CAP
missions like SAR/DR?

I personally have flown the SP aircraft on a SAR mission.  We have used them on DR exercises, and real-world DR missions.  We were alerted to possibly deploying to support Haiti Earthquake a few years back.

As for "traditional".....so what?   Sure it is not "traditional" but neither was the Deep Well Horizon, Katrina, Shuttle recovery, the air defense exercises on the east coast (Vigilant Falcon?).

The point is we are the USAF's Axillary.   They had a need that we could fill....and we filled it.  That's our job.

[Alaric]

Oh yay!, we can expect more begging letters from National, I haven't noticed anyway to opt out of these letters.  Also so nice to see how they see members, as a donor base.

May 2014 CSAG
46
INFORMATION PAPER
ON
CAP DEVELOPMENT PLAN


....

3) To create a sustainable line of communications with the membership/donor base;
• Quarterly Estate Planning newsletter (effective May 2014)
• Quarterly direct mail solicitations
• Civil Air Patrol publications and branding efforts
• Provide CFC documentation to units

[JeffDG]

Well, they COULD ask the Amish...they are good at raising barns...and it IS Pennsylvania...

Someone needs to get on the bloody phone and ask them then!

[SunDog]

I don't think advanced grade (or lack if it) will matter to most of the pilots. Skills, ratings, and experience are probably more important.  LtCol, SEL, 100 hours is  "junior" to the 1Lt CFII, MP, MCP, etc., in the areas that most concern pilots.

One of the areas where we do kinda line up with USAF; I saw a lot of Majors and LtCols in the co-pilot seat, with a Capt (even, rarely, a 1Lt) as the Aircraft Commander. In CAP, where rank is more decorative than significant, it'd probably matter even less. Or not matter enough to get up in arms about. I think for some us, it matters not at all.

Still, if we're gonna do advanced grade, I'd do it where it might help recruiting some, where we're short of bodies. If it's pilots, sure. Accountants? O.K, too.  Subjectively, I don't get the feeling it would matter all that much in recruiting. . .

[MSG Mac]

I would have expected the new 35-5 to be released with NCO promotion requirements. Or maybe they're writing a NCO manual that will include it.

[sarmed1]

Regarding money to HMRS.....if there are other activities out there in a national scope that want money to fund projects they should ask?  The worst they can say is no......

MK

[FW]

^Last I looked, any regional training center can apply for money earmarked from Vangard funds.  NESA has used the cash before; as did HMRS.  There are quite a few types of facilities which may apply for the money.  All one has to do is ask...

[RiverAux]

While I have a known bias in favor of eliminating all advanced promotions, even for prior military, I am especially fine with eliminating it for public health service folks as well as for NOAA (even though that isn't being proposed). 

These advanced promotions are supposed to help recruit people with relevant military skills to CAP.  While public health and NOAA are uniformed, they are not military.  One might argue that those commissioned public health and NOAA officers may have some skills relevant to CAP, but if that is the case why not give advanced promotions to those not in those organizations that possess the same skills?  If some NOAA fisheries scientist gets advanced promotion, why not some fisheries scientist from the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

While I don't favor advanced promotions for prior or current military, I can at least understand the logic behind them and that there are some potential direct benefits to CAP. 

[Spaceman3750]

Ugh, better ask the CC about putting me in for Captain... I'm eligible but have been dragging my feet.

[Panache]

Item 6: Proposed Changes to CAP Promotion Eligibility Requirements

As Eclipse said, all this is going to do is torque off people close to the cut-off point who find they now have extra TIG before promotion.  The entire system needs to be re-vamped completely.  This does nothing to eliminate the problem with our organization being top-heaving with field-grade officers who don't do anything.

Also, Hawk Mountain is asking for money for a new pole building. There is quite a bit of information included.

As a member of PAWG, even I feel that we (PAWG) should be funding this or it should be passed along in the form of a tuition increase.  Hitting up the general CAP membership for money really isn't fair.

[JeffDG]

OK, so some people think that promotions should be about responsibility, right?

Well, look at one they're removing...no more Capt for squadron commanders after a year of service.  If there's a better example of grade following responsibility in the current system, that's it.

[Eclipse]

Well, look at one they're removing...no more Capt for squadron commanders after a year of service.  If there's a better example of grade following responsibility in the current system, that's it.

And believe it or not I think this is a mistake, as Capt for Unit and Major for Group are probably the only place where grade alighns to
the actual duties, the key being it shoudl be conferred >after< at least a year, not concurrent with assignment.

By the time you've made it a year as a unit or group CC, that's your trial by fire.

To make it further coherent, though, I would also put in there that no one can be appointed to Group CC unless they have been a unit CC,
and no Unit CC until you have at least a year in CAP.

[sarmed1]

......
As a member of PAWG, even I feel that we (PAWG) should be funding this or it should be passed along in the form of a tuition increase.  Hitting up the general CAP membership for money really isn't fair.

I can only speculate about the budget process...but I can't believe this is one of those "Dave" sort of moments where they shave off other programs "excess" and then give it to Hawk ( or anyone else for that matter)  my guess there is a line item for capital improvement to facilities/ regional training activities or some other such "pot" of money that is available to those that apply for it.

MK

PS they did do a student fee increase 2 years ago at NHQ's request

[a2capt]

Any data on how what actions were taken on the agenda items?

[PHall]

Any data on how what actions were taken on the agenda items?

The meeting ended less then 8 hours ago...

[SunDog]

Item 6: Proposed Changes to CAP Promotion Eligibility Requirements

As Eclipse said, all this is going to do is torque off people close to the cut-off point who find they now have extra TIG before promotion.  The entire system needs to be re-vamped completely.  This does nothing to eliminate the problem with our organization being top-heaving with field-grade officers who don't do anything.

Also, Hawk Mountain is asking for money for a new pole building. There is quite a bit of information included.

IRT "the problem with our organization being top-heavy. . ." -  how big a problem is it, actually? What's the pain point? Are they filling slots that blocks other folk's promotions? It's not like they get paid more, either. . .

If a Major ot Lt Col went through the hoops and the SAS to get there a long time back, filled CC and some staff-walloper jobs, then decided to wind it down a decade later, having been there, done that, where's the harm? 

I have no dog in the fight - just a lowly Captain headed for the exit - but truly, where's the harm? If the presumption is the field grade weenie did what it took to get the bottle caps, it's not a zero sum game, right? 

If the main issue is that you consider it too easy to get there, then I see you' point - it cheapens your work and effort, and that's cool., I can understand that.


As a member of PAWG, even I feel that we (PAWG) should be funding this or it should be passed along in the form of a tuition increase.  Hitting up the general CAP membership for money really isn't fair.

[SunDog]

Sorry, fat-fingered it. . .what the Cptain MEANT to say. . .

IRT "the problem with our organization being top-heavy. . ." -  how big a problem is it, actually? What's the pain point? Are they filling slots that blocks other folk's promotions? It's not like they get paid more, either. . .

If a Major ot Lt Col went through the hoops and the SAS to get there a long time back, filled CC and some staff-walloper jobs, then decided to wind it down a decade later, having been there, done that, where's the harm? 

I have no dog in the fight - just a lowly Captain headed for the exit - but truly, where's the harm? If the presumption is the field grade weenie did what it took to get the bottle caps, it's not a zero sum game, right? 

If the main issue is that you consider it too easy to get there, then I see you' point - it cheapens your work and effort, and that's cool., I can understand that.