CSAG Agenda

[arajca]

Folks, I found an interesting item on the CSAG Agenda for this weekend.

Item 6: Proposed Changes to CAP Promotion Eligibility Requirements
Quick summaries:
Duty assignment promotions (grade - current PD/Proposed PD - Proposed TIG)
2d Lt - Level I/Level I - 6 mos as senior member
1st Lt - Tech rating/Level II - 18 mos as 2d Lt/TFO
Capt - Level II/Level III - 30 mos as 1st Lt/SFO
Maj - Level III/Level IV - 5 years as Capt
Lt Col - Level V - 6 years as Maj

Remove advanced officer grade for reg/reserve NCOs

Mission Related skills:
Drops Capt for ATP, all Maintenance, all Instructors.

Professional Appointments:
Removes advanced grade for financial professionals unless serving at wing or region AND are licensed CPA.

There are several comments for and against and requesting clarification.

Also, Hawk Mountain is asking for money for a new pole building. There is quite a bit of information included.

Lots of background papers.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Eclipse]

Works for me, where do I sign?   I am doubtful it will pass.

As to Hawk, I'm personally tired of supporting an NCSA with a limited participant scope which doesn't even
train to CAP mission standards and causes all sorts of unintended problems and consequences
downrange to zero demonstrable increase in capabilities or readiness.

If members want to go, good on them, but it needs to rise or fall on its own, especially in
this era of cutting costs and programs all over the place.  If they get the money, the NCC
people should be seriously hacked.

They are already getting a wad from Vanguard, and also Pennsylvania?  Right?

[A.Member]

Also, Hawk Mountain is asking for money for a new pole building. There is quite a bit of information included.

Not only "no", but heck (in lieu of a stronger word) no!

Is National going to start funding some additional needs for our encampment?!  How about flight academy? 

Dangerous and unwarranted precedent at a time when everyone's budgets are tight. 

If PAWG wants a new pole barn, build it themselves.  Simple as that. 

[LSThiker]

An interesting statement under "Associate" member:

Could wear a CAP polo shirt because it is not a uniform

I do not think I agree with this unless all commissioned officers also do not get advanced grade.  Why only USPHS?  What about NOAA?  They all have federal commissions.

Deletes advanced officer grade promotions for members of the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps.

[Eclipse]

Item 4: Establish the Director of Training position and Standardization of the
Operations Organization Structure
About time.  Something I have been espousing for a long time.


Item 5: Proposed Changes to CAP Membership Categories
It's kind of funny they are still stuck on the term "senior".
"member" doesn't work, "officer" doesn't work, "adult" doesn't work.

There's a lot of time spent on membership categories for people who don't actually >do<
anything but write a check.  Why do these people have to be members at all?

If people aren't active, drop them off the rolls and say "thank you" for their annual check.
When they get active again, put them back in (which is just a check box, anyway).
eliminates all the overhead of extra categories and allows for simple manpower reporting.

"Associates" also need to be dropped from all reporting for things like safety, AGH, etc.,
it should even be an available option, nor should they show up in the regular member reports.


Item 6: Proposed Changes to CAP Promotion Eligibility Requirements
A strong step in the right direction, but again this should not be done piecemeal.
Raising the TIG without a full revamp of the structure is just going to hack off people "close" with no real value.
An empty-shirt or uninformed 6-year Lt Col isn't any better then a 4-year one.

The NCO non-promotion is understandable, but THERE IS NO REASON FOR TEMPORARY GRADE WHATSOEVER.
So now instead of a slick-sleeve or butter-bar Wing Dir of Finance with 6 months in, we'll have a Lt Col with 6 months
in?  This is a good idea, why?  This breaks the grade model even further.

Eliminating USPHS makes no sense, and the one guy it affects is going to be hacked.

And if you're going to eliminate "some" special skills promotions, you should just eliminate all of them.

B. May 2013 CSAG Agenda: Item 5 Internet Ops
Yes, please - everyone should be under a cap.gov domain, and can use a subdomain for special events.

This is not 1996, if you're "advertising" through a domain name you're doing it wrong - yeah, I know, businesses
do it all the time, that doesn't make it a good idea or worth the effort for CAP, especially for stuff which is
internal only like NCSAs.  And that "gocivialairpatrol" needs to "GO".  Putting "go" in front of everything
ended as a "thing" about ten years ago.

D. Nov 2013 CSAG Agenda: Item 1 Hawk Mountain Pole Building
They should be able to come up with the $15k from either a 1-time assessment of participants, or raising
activity fees, not going to NHQ.

INFORMATION PAPER  ON CAP FLYING OPERATIONS
More evidence that the program is shrinking and significantly - 1-time events like Sandy, which
tend to help the overall flight numbers, cannot be the core of operations.

Less members, less mission = less hours and eventually less planes, rinse repeat.

INFORMATION PAPER ON SURROGATE PREDATOR (SP) PROGRAM
We need to stop calling it this.  It's an advanced sensor package, not a Predator.  ASP?


More importantly, during a time of demonstrable program and membership shrinkage, coupled
with CAP's typically poor membership churn, the word "recruiting" is only in the document twice,
and neither time is it in relation to any recruiting initiatives, guidance, or resources, and only one is even
concerning external recruiting at all, and only in a peripheral way.

If we don't start refilling the candy jar, this only gets worse until the tipping point.
Saying things like "this is how it's always been", doesn't address the issue and it ignores
the fact that while CAP may have "always been this way", the world situation, technology,
and the Feds financial situation hasn't "always been like this".

[Eclipse]

An interesting statement under "Associate" member:

Could wear a CAP polo shirt because it is not a uniform

Frankly they can wear whatever they want AFAIC, since they can't come to meetings or missions, though
I suppose it has to be written somewhere.

Why are they allowed to wear a uniform at all?

[GroundHawg]

Cutting out the USPHS is disrespectful. There are 7 uniformed services in the United States and to single out on in particular and say their service does not warrant consideration is awful. I served in Iraq and Afghanistan and saw USPHS and NOAA officers deployed to both. I guess whoever wrote this does not think that they warrant their earned rank in the CAP? Seriously?

[AlphaSigOU]

Big increases for time-in-grade requirements... I'm eligible for Lt Col in less than three months... I just hope that they don't enact it immediately if it's approved!

[Storm Chaser]

The increase in promotion requirements will affect many of us, but I agree it's a step in the right direction. I also agree with the comments regarding the USPHS Commissioned Corps. If they eliminate their advanced promotion, they would have to do the same with NOAA Commissioned Corps.

As far as military advanced promotions go, I don't have a problem with it as long as members receiving the promotion are performing a duty commensurable with their grade. While an active, reserve or retired Lt Col, for example, earned their grade in the military, I don't see why they should be promoted to that grade in CAP if they're going to be assigned as unit "snack" officer. In addition, there should be some mechanism in place for those members who receive advanced promotions to go back and do appropriate CAP PD. As it stands now, there's not much incentive for a Lt Col promoted this way to go beyond Level 1.

[lordmonar]

INFORMATION PAPER ON SURROGATE PREDATOR (SP) PROGRAM
We need to stop calling it this.  It's an advanced sensor package, not a Predator.  ASP?

You are right it is not a "Predator" it is a Surrogate Predator.

If you were part of the program you would understand.

[lordmonar]

As far as military advanced promotions go, I don't have a problem with it as long as members receiving the promotion are performing a duty commensurable with their grade. While an active, reserve or retired Lt Col, for example, earned their grade in the military, I don't see why they should be promoted to that grade in CAP if they're going to be assigned as unit "snack" officer. In addition, there should be some mechanism in place for those members who receive advanced promotions to go back and do appropriate CAP PD. As it stands now, there's not much incentive for a Lt Col promoted this way to go beyond Level 1.

I would agree with this stance IF......IF we required CAP Lt Cols to pefrom a duty commensurate with their grade as well.   (Which we could argue about else where).   

But I agree, increasing the TIG across the board is a good thing.

[AlphaSigOU]

Agree on the increase on PD time-in-grade for duty performance promotions. The special appointment promotions need to be backed up with more stringent PD requirements; you got the grade for your skill, but we expect you to have all professional development requirements completed for your grade within a certain amount of time or you bust back down to 2d Lt. (Why 2d Lt and not SMWOG? At least they'll have Level I and at least 6 months time-in-grade - if the minimum wasn't the minimum, it wouldn't be the minimum!)

[Brit_in_CAP]

Also, Hawk Mountain is asking for money for a new pole building. There is quite a bit of information included.

Not only "no", but heck (in lieu of a stronger word) no!

Is National going to start funding some additional needs for our encampment?!  How about flight academy? 

Dangerous and unwarranted precedent at a time when everyone's budgets are tight. 

If PAWG wants a new pole barn, build it themselves.  Simple as that.

+1, at least

[Garibaldi]

Also, Hawk Mountain is asking for money for a new pole building. There is quite a bit of information included.

Not only "no", but heck (in lieu of a stronger word) no!

Is National going to start funding some additional needs for our encampment?!  How about flight academy? 

Dangerous and unwarranted precedent at a time when everyone's budgets are tight. 

If PAWG wants a new pole barn, build it themselves.  Simple as that.

+1, at least

Well, they COULD ask the Amish...they are good at raising barns...and it IS Pennsylvania...

[Brit_in_CAP]

Also, Hawk Mountain is asking for money for a new pole building. There is quite a bit of information included.

Not only "no", but heck (in lieu of a stronger word) no!

Is National going to start funding some additional needs for our encampment?!  How about flight academy? 

Dangerous and unwarranted precedent at a time when everyone's budgets are tight. 

If PAWG wants a new pole barn, build it themselves.  Simple as that.

+1, at least

Well, they COULD ask the Amish...they are good at raising barns...and it IS Pennsylvania...

Never saw that coming.... :clap: :clap:

[Eclipse]

INFORMATION PAPER ON SURROGATE PREDATOR (SP) PROGRAM
We need to stop calling it this.  It's an advanced sensor package, not a Predator.  ASP?

You are right it is not a "Predator" it is a Surrogate Predator.

If you were part of the program you would understand.

Well perhaps if it wasn't restricted to a small group of handpicked members, we'd all understand it better,
sadly we can't all be a part of Area 51 Composite.

Judging by the details it's a CAP program in name only anyway.

[Eclipse]

Well, they COULD ask the Amish...they are good at raising barns...and it IS Pennsylvania...

Awesome.

[abdsp51]

Big increases for time-in-grade requirements... I'm eligible for Lt Col in less than three months... I just hope that they don't enact it immediately if it's approved!

Everyone going for LtCol will be grandfathered and the rest will  suck it up.

[Eclipse]

Big increases for time-in-grade requirements... I'm eligible for Lt Col in less than three months... I just hope that they don't enact it immediately if it's approved!

Everyone going for LtCol will be grandfathered and the rest will  suck it up.

Which shows you who is writing the proposal...

The goose and gander should be equal.

[lordmonar]

INFORMATION PAPER ON SURROGATE PREDATOR (SP) PROGRAM
We need to stop calling it this.  It's an advanced sensor package, not a Predator.  ASP?

You are right it is not a "Predator" it is a Surrogate Predator.

If you were part of the program you would understand.

Well perhaps if it wasn't restricted to a small group of handpicked members, we'd all understand it better,
sadly we can't all be a part of Area 51 Composite.

Judging by the details it's a CAP program in name only anyway.

A) It is not a composite squadron.....it is a group and two senior squadrons.
b)  The program is open to anyone who wants to join and has the required skill set. 
c)  Anyone can come and visit and see what we do.   We have had several articles in the Volunteer.  You should have told me you were coming to Vegas I could have arranged a tour.
d)  I don't know how you can say a program manned and run entirely by CAP personnel is not  a CAP program.  Supporting the USAF in its non-combat operations is the whole reason for CAP to exist.