Benefits of CAP Moving from Air University to Air National Guard

[Guardrail]

I know it has been discussed here that CAP's command affiliation move from Air University to the Air National Guard.  What would the benefits of this be?

[mikeylikey]

I really never saw any benefits.  However, if you were to recommend a move from AU to say another Command of the Active Duty AF I would be all ears.

[afgeo4]

Please remember that CAP wouldn't be placed under any specific National Guard, just under the Bureau. That bureau doesn't have anything standardized. It's just a way for all the commanders of air components of each state to meet and resolve major issues that affect them all and the ANG's integration into the total force concept, aka Air Force.

I think it would make more sense to place us under the AFRES Command. At least they deal with things on a federal level. To tell you the truth, I see no problem with AETC. I just wish we reported directly to the Commander of AETC and not to Air Univ. 

Speaking of... why not advocate being a direct reporting unit to HQ/USAF?  The USAFA is. Why not CAP?  Title 10 states we're under discretion of the SECAF, not the joint chiefs of staff or the chief of staff of the air force... We should answer directly to the SECAF.

[JohnKachenmeister]

A couple of advantages come to mind:

The ANG and CAP both have dual identities.  The ANG can be called out in its federal role under Title 10, and so can we.  The ANG can be (but seldom is) called out by the governor in its Title 32 role, and is paid out of state funds.  We can be activated under Title 36, by states, local comunities, and NGO's, provided there is a pre-existing agreement.  For this reason, placing our Title 36 primarily under control of the state seems a good fit.

Disaster relief is a state function, unless it is of a scale to be delared a federal disaster.  The TAG of the state is responsible for military forces deployed to attenuate the disaster.  Placing CAP under the AG is consistent with the principle of Unity of Command.

If CAP is acting on behalf of the state in its Title 36 role, the Posse Comitatus Act does not apply to us.

We may qualify for certain employment protections under state laws.  In some states, we already do.

Nothing prevents the federal govt. from calling CAP out in its Title 10 role, as they do now for AFAM's.

Access to armories for meetings and ANG bases for positioning of aircraft would be enhanced.

Some wings would benefit more than others.  Texas, Florida, California, the midwest would frequently call out their light plane assets for disasters, I'm sure.  Rhode Island, however, hasn't had a disaster since the British left.  Colorado already places the CAP wing under the TAG, and worked seamlessly conducting rescue operations in their recent winter disaster.  They were initially called out by the Gov. under Title 36, then funded under Title 10 after the federal disaster declaration.  Then they went back under Title 36 when the mission shifted to feeding livestock rather than rescuing people.

CAP worked by flying the major highways looking for stranded motorists, and calling a central air operations base for a helicopter. Coordination was exquisite, in that it even include direct aircraft-to-aircraft communications.  CAP had the capability to directly contact ground units of the state and local police and sheriffs, but were directed in an OPORD to limit direct communication to emergencies, due to frequency congestion.  CAP also flew over open territory to locate cattle herds, then called for heavy lift support to bring food in to them.  That made the most efficient use of the more costly heavy lift, by accomplishing the recon with Skyhawks and Skylanes.

We done good there.  That's the advantage of a command affiliation with the NG.

[Dragoon]

What he said.

NG is a quasi federal military entity that doesn much of their work locally.  Just like us.  And they do a lot of the same work that we are interested in doing.  We can help them out a lot.

Big USAF drops bombs on foreign countries for a living.  We will always be a minor sideline player to them.

[Major_Chuck]

I guess the real benefit is in the similarity at times of the mission.  Both CAP and Guard serve their local communities and commonwealths where AF is a instrument of the Federal government.

I've seen more local support at Guard Armories and Air Guard Bases for CAP then out of the active duty component.  (Not saying that Active Duty does not support CAP...they do.  I just see more out of the hometown guys.)

[Major_Chuck]

And another thought....The Guard Folks have actually taken an interest in what we can bring to the table in any type of mission they are tasked with.  They're looking at how to do more with less as well.  CAP for them is a multiplier where for the Active component they really don't know what to do with us.

[Hawk200]

And another thought....The Guard Folks have actually taken an interest in what we can bring to the table in any type of mission they are tasked with.  They're looking at how to do more with less as well.  CAP for them is a multiplier where for the Active component they really don't know what to do with us.

Iowa Wing seems to be the proving ground for this too. If the Guard across the country gets the idea that we're golden, they may show more interest.

[Dragoon]

As mentioned, Colorado is tightly tied to the Guard.  Maryland seems to be going that way.

[RiverAux]

I've yet to see any evidence that this would work any better than "tying yourself" to the state emergency mgt agency (or whatever they call it).  Don't see why the NG needs to be in the middle.  During certain operations you need to work together but otherwise I just don't see it UNLESS you are able to talk them out of all the free housing on a monthly basis like Iowa did. 

[Dragoon]

The state emergency management agency has no national presence, and is not part of DoD, isn't connected to the USAF military, and has no federal HLS missions.

The National Guard Bureau has all of this.  Plus airforce planes, bases, training facilities....and a great interest in our cadet program because it can get them new recruits.

[RiverAux]

my mistake, I thought we were also assuming one of the other proposals floating around that CAP would get integrated into the NG at the local level. 

At the federal level, there is no question in my mind that we should be under 1st AF as DNALL has proposed since they are actually the ones that run all the AF HLS missions.  Why not work directly for the boss rather than for some underling that may or may not get asked to be involved. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

RA:

The advantage of affiliation with the NG is the fact that we can work both the federal and state sides of the funding aisle, just like the NG does now.

Federal missions under totle 10 would be tasked from 1AF through TAG.  SAR missions would be tasked directly from AFRCC.  State funded missions under Title 36 would come direct from TAG when authorized by the Governor for local disasters.

[RiverAux]

The advantage of affiliation with the NG is the fact that we can work both the federal and state sides of the funding aisle, just like the NG does now.

An advantage that is currently fully available to all CAP Wings now with our current structure. 

SAR missions would be tasked directly from AFRCC.

Assuming the state wants to give them to CAP. 

State funded missions under Title 36 would come direct from TAG when authorized by the Governor for local disasters.

Why would the state want to pay for them?  One call and they can get an AFAM for any SAR or natural disaster.  The AF is extremely free with paying for CAP to be used for these sorts of ES missions.  Most non-AF missions are probably being conducted in non-emergency fields like wildlife surveys. 

[Dragoon]

Why would the state want to pay for them?  One call and they can get an AFAM for any SAR or natural disaster.  The AF is extremely free with paying for CAP to be used for these sorts of ES missions.  Most non-AF missions are probably being conducted in non-emergency fields like wildlife surveys. 

Because for disasters, Big Daddy Air Force won't pay until the state certifies that they have exhausted all local resources.

That's why we're always involved in Presidential disasters, but don't always get the smaller ones, like snowstorms and local flooding.  There's a hassle factor to go through.

But states have no problem call out the Guard at the drop of a hat.  And if we were part of the Guard...

[afgeo4]

I think the difference between how we are treated by the active duty vs. ANG components of the Air Force is a window not onto CAP, but onto the way the USAF has implemented the total force concept. In reality, the ANG is not an equally lead, financed, and trained organization as the active duty or the reserve.

NY is very tight with ANG as well (the groups that are near ANG bases). There are a few missions we do for them here including flying support for Operations Groups (TACP) during their trainings. Every unit has a different relationship with their bases, it depends on both commanders, but there are strong relationships. I thought it was only natural because we have 0 active duty bases and only 1 reserve station in NY. The only Air Force we have is the Guard. I assumed that relationship existed for CAP units cohabitating with active duty as well. I guess I was wrong.

But... do we really want to fall under a "bastard child" organization within the Air Force that never gets its share of funding to begin with? I think it will only cause us further distancing from the active duty component and HQ component of the USAF which will lead to cut down in mission, training, and every day funding.

I propose us becoming a direct reporting unit to HQ/USAF in Washington and not fall under any other organization.

[RiverAux]

Because for disasters, Big Daddy Air Force won't pay until the state certifies that they have exhausted all local resources.

Not true at all.  We've done at least two DR missions lately that didn't require anything more than the normal AFRCC mission request.  And these were in the realm of fairly minor disasters.  Same as with local missing persons missions. 

You may be correct as to the the theory of how the fed government gets involved, but its certainly not working like that in my area.  If the state calls, the AF has been okaying the mission. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

George:

Your ANG situation in NY may be unique.  It has been my experience that NG/Reserve training is just about identical when considering the federal mission.

How would we get more missions, considering CAP overall, attached to HQ USAF?

Attached to the NG, the state could give us state-funded missions, and the USAF would continue to give us the Title 10 missions we get now.  Colo. Wing is under the NG now, and was called up during their recent series of blizzards under Title 36 by the state.  It became a Title 10 mission when the disaster was a federally-declared disaster, then the Colo Wing went back under Title 36 for the state to spot herds of starving beef cattle for air-drops of feed.  All that time they were under the operational control of the Adjutant General.

Under your plan, we could be farmed out to the state by HQ USAF, but with every change of funding source, our chain of command would change.  That's no way to run an air force.  Officers study the principle of Unity of Command for a reason.  

In World War II the German Hermann Goering Division was a panzer division, but assigned to the Luftwaffe.  During the Anzio landings, the Goering division attacked American troops, inflicting heavy losses.  But since the division was not under Wehrmacht command, it did not operate in concert with other German forces, the Americans were able to overwhelm the division and break out of the Anzio beachhead.

Don't be "Fat Herman."  Unity of Command means that all military forces assigned to accomplish a given mission should remain under a single commander.  

[RiverAux]

Evidently there was a big fight yesterday in the committee studying Guard and Reserve issues, partly over making the head of the NGB a 4-star member of the Joint Chiefs.  The bigger issue, and the one applicable to this discussion, was making the National Guard Bureau entirely separate from the Army and the Air Force.  This didn't seem to have a lot of support, but if it were to happen it would eliminate whatever few advantages there are now to having CAP under the NGB as opposed to some part of the AF. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I didn't hear about the fight, and I do not understand how the NGB would work as a co-equal branch of service.  It doesn't make sense to me.

How about the federal reserve forces?  Do they get their own branch, too?