Question About Signing off ES Tasks

Started by Fearlessleader01, March 04, 2006, 06:43:20 PM

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Fearlessleader01

I have a question about signing off ES tasks for GTM qualifications. What exactly do instructors need to sign off tasks? I know that you need SET and the rating which you wish to sign people off for, but recently I have been told that you need the permission of your wing ES officer also. I have instructed at NESA twice and have been told that I do not need the wing ES officer's permission (which I asked for anyways) because I have been approved at NHQ. The problem is that cadets at my squadron who have attended NESA and RIGSAR (GTM 1s) want to know if they can sign off other cadets once they take the test for SET. This is a problem because these cadets wish to instruct and sign people off at a SAREX. Do instructors need the wing ES officers permission to sign people off or not? Any information would be appreciated.

C/Capt Joseph T.,
CTWG
C/Maj Joseph Trujillo
NER-CT-058 X0
CTWG CAC Chair
GTM-1, EMT-B

arajca

NESA and other GSAR school are an exception. Because they are supposed be run by national or the wing, the instructors at those schools can sign off SQTR's for those tasks they are qualified for while teaching at the school. Outside of the school, you need to be approved by your wing Director of Emergency Services - even if you can sign off students at a school.

Some wings make it easy, some make it hard. Your best bet is to contact your wing Director of ES to find out the exact requirements your wing has.

Eclipse

Yes, this is a per-Wing issue as technically the Wing CC is the signing authority for SQTR's (or his designee).

In ILWG the Wing DOS has to specifically approve you, per specialty, to be an SET, and maintaining that status is not automatic.

I pretty much agree with this - not everyone should be an SET.  Just because a member squeaked by on some sign-offs and sat in the back seat of two ELT sorties doesn't mean he's ready to be an instructor / evaluator.

Also, not everyone believes NESA, HAWK, or similiar schools are the end-all/be-all of GSAR, and prefer to insure their people are up to local "standards" whatever that may be.

"That Others May Zoom"

Fearlessleader01

Thank you for the input. I'll have those cadets see the Wing Director of ES and get permission for it and find out the standards. I asked him for permission to sign off tasks and he told me he had no problem with it because of my experience at NESA. This was an issue because of the fact that some of the squadrons around me have someone get SET and then they start signing off everyone and their cousin with out talking to the Director of ES. Thanks for the clarification.
C/Maj Joseph Trujillo
NER-CT-058 X0
CTWG CAC Chair
GTM-1, EMT-B

shorning


Chris Jacobs

So can cadets which have passed SET and have the permission can sign off tasks.  I was under the impression that cadets couldn't do that at all.  It would be very beneficial if i could sign cadets off for some tasks for their UDF.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Horn229

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on March 05, 2006, 06:25:26 PM
So can cadets which have passed SET and have the permission can sign off tasks.  I was under the impression that cadets couldn't do that at all.  It would be very beneficial if i could sign cadets off for some tasks for their UDF.


Yup, if you've got the permission why shouldn't you be allowed to sign off?

Personally I think there should be a clause added, so that members, specifically cadets should have to wait 1 year after being qualified in a specialty to sign off other in that rating, and senior members should wait at least 6 months. You need to let that info sink into your head, focus more on making sure you know the stuff, and less about signing off your friends.
NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP

arajca

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on March 05, 2006, 06:25:26 PM
So can cadets which have passed SET and have the permission can sign off tasks.  I was under the impression that cadets couldn't do that at all.  It would be very beneficial if i could sign cadets off for some tasks for their UDF.

It may very well be your wing's policy that cadets cannot sign off sqtr's. Check with (or have your ES officer check with) the wing director of ES for the specifics of your wing.

Fearlessleader01

Quote from: shorning on March 05, 2006, 05:45:51 PM
Cough...chain of command....cough

I was going for the general idea, of course the cadets will send the proper requests throught the chain of command. The idea of waiting a year for cadets and 6 months for seniors just seems like more regulations to deal with. It really doesn't make much sense to make people wait, but it wouldn't hurt.
C/Maj Joseph Trujillo
NER-CT-058 X0
CTWG CAC Chair
GTM-1, EMT-B

BlackKnight

What we do in my squadron is endeavor to have a GTL do the "final record" GTM3-GTM1 SQTR signoffs in MIMS and in pen on the paper SQTRs. (In this case the GTL has also completed GTM1).  We encourage members (including cadets) with appropriate qualifications (ES specialty and SET) to help conduct instruction and do preliminary signoffs in pencil on the paper SQTRs, all under the supervision of our GTL.  Having to teach and answer questions helps to reinforce skills.  The GTL will then confirm that the lessons "took" at the next ES night, FTX, or SAREX.  If a member seems shaky on a particular skill the GTL will reinforce the training until we can positively assure our unit commander that a member's GTM or UDF SQTR is ready for unit/group/wing approval.

It takes us 8-12 months to get a member through GTM3 training this way. It IS time-consuming. But this way when the phone rings and the incident commander is on the line, we know who's truly mission-ready and who isn't.

Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

Chris Jacobs

I like the idea of having to spend extra time with the qualification before signing off other people like Horn said.  I know that even after getting my UDF signed off i was no god at it.  I still go out on every mission trying to learn somthing even a year latter.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Horn229

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on March 06, 2006, 09:50:39 PM
I like the idea of having to spend extra time with the qualification before signing off other people like Horn said.  I know that even after getting my UDF signed off i was no god at it.  I still go out on every mission trying to learn somthing even a year latter.

Exactly, there's always something new to learn. Whether it be new tricks of the trade, learning a new technique, or simlpy getting more practice in everything. You can't just be given the rating and expect to know it all. You need that constant trial and error time to ensure you know what to do, or how to do it. I got my GBD rating last February, was I then able to turn around and sign someone else off? According to the regs, yes. Did I do that? No. Why? Everytime I'm the GBD I learn something new, I learn new techniques on how to properly manage the teams in the field, I get advice and tips from people above me, and I learn through my mistakes what to do and what not to do.

It has nothing to do with wanting to hold back cadets from teaching others. It's about ensuring others learn the material and have time to let the info they've just learned to sink in. Just because you're good at memorizing the stuff in the task book and have two mission numbers signed off does not mean you're ready to turn around and teach someone else.
NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP

Matt

Quote from: Horn229 on March 07, 2006, 08:29:18 PM
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on March 06, 2006, 09:50:39 PM
I like the idea of having to spend extra time with the qualification before signing off other people like Horn said.  I know that even after getting my UDF signed off i was no god at it.  I still go out on every mission trying to learn somthing even a year latter.

Exactly, there's always something new to learn. Whether it be new tricks of the trade, learning a new technique, or simlpy getting more practice in everything. You can't just be given the rating and expect to know it all. You need that constant trial and error time to ensure you know what to do, or how to do it. I got my GBD rating last February, was I then able to turn around and sign someone else off? According to the regs, yes. Did I do that? No. Why? Everytime I'm the GBD I learn something new, I learn new techniques on how to properly manage the teams in the field, I get advice and tips from people above me, and I learn through my mistakes what to do and what not to do.

It has nothing to do with wanting to hold back cadets from teaching others. It's about ensuring others learn the material and have time to let the info they've just learned to sink in. Just because you're good at memorizing the stuff in the task book and have two mission numbers signed off does not mean you're ready to turn around and teach someone else.

... There may be hope for CAP yet...

I have to agree with you Horn.  It's not a good mission if you walk away having learned nothing.  I think you hit the nail on the head by saying that things need to sink in.  There is too much pushing to get signed off, and not to say that all members would, but a good majority would give into pressure going, we'll I've been signed off, I know what I'm doing, lets go sign off - sadly, as we all know, that leads to shoddy GTs, ACs, staffs, and missions.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

ande.boyer

Quote from: Eclipse on March 05, 2006, 02:27:09 AM
Yes, this is a per-Wing issue as technically the Wing CC is the signing authority for SQTR's (or his designee).

Can you reference the reg that states this please.  There's been some questions about this in my unit and it would be great to see this and show this to people right there in black and white.

Regards,

smj58501

#14
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on March 06, 2006, 09:50:39 PM
I like the idea of having to spend extra time with the qualification before signing off other people like Horn said.  I know that even after getting my UDF signed off i was no god at it.  I still go out on every mission trying to learn something even a year latter.

All this talk of "waiting" is not necessarily a bad thing, but I would recommend you establish clear standards and guidelines as to when/ what conditions must be met in order for a member to be signed off. In the "real" military, a service member attends their specialty school (e.g. AFSC or MOSQ course), and if they successfully meet the standards of this course, they are awarded their AFSC or MOS. By no means does this make them an expert, and the military schoolhouse instructors reinforce this point with their students. Schools provide them a baseline understanding of the tasks required to do their AFSC/ MOS, similar to CAP Fam/ Prep and Advanced training tasks detailed on an SQTR.

The important similarity is, in both instances (CAP and Military), the real learning and professional growth comes with training and experience. Schools/ SQTR training venues provide an important baseline to build from. While the military will often work very closely with service members fresh out of a skill school during their initial tour to further refine their skills (often making them "apprentices" of sort, not fully entrusted to do certain tasks on their own), they award them their MOS/ AFSC if they successfully achieve course standards (the equivalent to an SQTR signoff) of the schoolhouse. This is just as much an administrative thing as it is a gesture of confidence from the organization onto their Soldier/ Airmen, stating "you have proven you know the basics, and thus we are awarding you your skill designator as a license to continue learning and growing as a military professional"

Bottom line- I feel you are on the right track with making them "apprentice" a bit longer, so long as you clearly define up front  how long/ what else needs to be accomplished or demonstrated to be "fully capable". We are all volunteers, and if it is not clear what else needs to be done to be "fully qualified", frustration is sure to follow (along with a misinterpretation of your good intentions as "they are just stringing me along"). I would, however, not hesitate to award them their specialty (if anything to recognize their achievement) once they have met the standards as detailed on the SQTR. Any "apprenticeship to fully qualified" transition plan required can be managed within the unit without denying a volunteer what they have earned per the CAP standard.

Oh by the way, this same concept can be applied to determining when a member is ready to sign others off.... make it clear where this mark on the wall is
Sean M. Johnson
Lt Col, CAP
Chief of Staff
ND Wing CAP

ELTHunter

If the member fills in all of the required information into the MIMS personal SQTR entry screen, along with the CAPID of the SET who signed off on the task, it should automatically forward up the proper approval chain for your unit and Wing.

I know of nothing in the regulations that discriminates between cadet and senior member regarding the signing of SQTR's.  As far as I know, you only need to be an approved SET and qualified in the specialty you are signing off on.  However, as someone already posted, the final approval for the 101 rests with the Wing CC who usually designates his DOS as the Wing approving official.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

ELTHunter

No SET, GTL, squadron CC or ES Officer should approve a 101 request unless they believe the member is qualified to perform the task on their own.  The good thing about our regulations is that a member can participate in missions (actual or training) as they are training as long as they are supervised.

My cadets usually demonstrate the tasks many times over about a year (and four or five exercises) before I enter their info into MIMS and send the approval up the chain.  The way I look at it, once I say they are 101 qualified, I am saying they can go out on missions with any other GTL and I don't want the member or the GTL embarrassed, disadvantaged or maybe even have his/her safety jeopardized by someone that was turned lose with insufficient training.

Even after they are GTM3 qualified, I am careful about when and where I take them on actual missions.  Usually a cadet has proved themselves for a couple of years before they go on a real mission.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer