Does the new Corporate Service Dress Uniform Violate the UCMJ and USC Codes?

[AlphaSigOU]

So, y'think I should save up for one?  Is it the "wave of the future?

Entirely up to you. Knowing how AF-style clothing runs small, and I'm right at the borderline (+/- 10 lbs) of meeting CAP weight standards, I'd rather wear the TPU for now. I won't consider buying USAF service dress unless I actually go to an MCSS and try one on.

[Hawk200]

I can't speak to why it was created, but it does indeed fill a need -- the need for some members of Civil Air Patrol to feel that they, too, are members of the organization and to wear a uniform for that organization.  Folks like me, f'rinstance, who do not meet height/weight standards but contribute (or have contributed) in many ways to CAP's success.  Why should we not have a military-style uniform?  Because we're overweight?...

I find this amusing in so many ways. One, so many people that talk about how we're are not the military, yet people demanding a military style uniform. Do you see the irony?

Two, this military style corporate uniform goes against the military's concept of uniform wear. How many obviously overweight personnel do you see in the military? Not many, not many at all. I'm not talking about five, ten or even fifteen pounds, heck, you can still wear the blues within those limits (more or less).

As for wearing a uniform for the organization, what do you think you were wearing before? This doesn't look to me like a uniformity issue, it looks like people jumping on the "latest and greatest". The TPU didn't introduce another option when you didn't have one. You're only arguing it because you went out and bought one. Which could be considered a self control issue in itself.

Maybe the uniform was created because Maj. Gen. Pineda himself is getting a little too "large" for his AF blue suit.  Maybe it really was created as an end-run around the metal grade on the epaulet issue.  Maybe it was created for the reasons I stated -- so the larger-than-issue-size members can have a military-style uniform to feel as if they belong as well.  Maybe it was for all of these reasons; maybe for none of the above. 

So what you're telling me is that when the General gets too big for his britches, he can just design a new uniform? Back to the military angle, how many fat military generals have you seen? Not many of those around. He could have changed the Blazer combo into something prettier. But he didn't, he created a new one. How many times do you buy a new car because you have a flat tire on your old one?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, Hawk200, but for me, saying something created by higher headquarters "doesn't have the justification to exist" is a bit above my pay grade.

I'm really not sure how you thought I wouldn't know what this really means. Just come out and and say what you mean, don't get creative on the writing.

As I've said before, if you don't like the uniform, don't wear it.  That's why it's optional.  For folks like me -- who want to serve, and who want to feel as if we belong because we're dressed at least somewhat similar to everyone else -- the uniform is justified.

Funny, I never said anything about wearing it. Really, thank you for the permission, though.

I don't really buy the "feel as if we belong". There were other things available. And the TPU isn't so similar to the Air Force that people associate the two. Most people I know think it looks like some kind of Coast Guard uniform. You're dresssed similar, just not to the target you wanted to be.

[ColonelJack]

Hawk200, first let me assure you I wasn't trying to be a smartass.  Not at all.  But I do employ creative writing because ... well, because I'm a writer.

I see your points; I just don't agree with them.  (You did score a hit, however, with your line about me arguing for it because I bought one.  I do admit to that being part of the reason I support the Corporate uniform.)  This uniform combination is really a non-issue, since it isn't going to go away -- not after a lot of officers have gone to the expense to purchase one. 

I think we can agree to disagree.

Jack

[DNall]

Send your collective bills to....

Well anyway, I don't think anyone's necessarily arguing for it to go away. I think modification is the word. Embroider CAP on the AF grade slides so they are now "distinctivly marked blue CAP grade slides" & not an AF uniform item. Also go to pin on CAP halfway btwn the metal grade & button for the jacket & all the Army style outter wear, all that allows you to put the US back on the lapel. Okay now so that hasn't negatetd the investment anyone has made. Just swap out a couple insignia items & everyone's okay, maybe not loving it, but satisfied.

Plus here's the thing, that becomes the precedent to standardize some things down the road: For instance, it'd be nice to be able to sue the same AF-style lightweight & all-weather coats w/ both combinations & the same insignia setup. It'd be nice to bring blue grade slides w/ CAP embroidered on them over to the blues side some day, back like it used to be. I don't think they'd let us wear metal grade on the blues service coat even in teh way specified, but that same blue slide in that postion would be nice, as would a black one for that matter. Be nice to get down the road to a uniform along those lines, and this TPU fiasco could be used a s a stepping tone to that stuff some day in theory maybe, but not as it's set up now. So what's the big deal making a couple minor changes.

[Guardrail]

Well anyway, I don't think anyone's necessarily arguing for it to go away. I think modification is the word. Embroider CAP on the AF grade slides so they are now "distinctivly marked blue CAP grade slides" & not an AF uniform item. Also go to pin on CAP halfway btwn the metal grade & button for the jacket & all the Army style outter wear, all that allows you to put the US back on the lapel. Okay now so that hasn't negatetd the investment anyone has made. Just swap out a couple insignia items & everyone's okay, maybe not loving it, but satisfied.

I'd like to see the blue corporate service dress uniform go away.  I don't see what purpose it serves.  There's nothing wrong with wearing the grays/blazer uniform combo if you're overweight/don't meet the grooming standards.  In my view, if there is any reason the blue corporate service dress uniform came into being, it was to slap the AF in the face for not allowing blue shoulder marks/blue nametag/metal rank on the AF style service uniforms for CAP. 

My theory is that the corporate service dress uniform exists because its accoutrements (AF rank slides, metal rank and blue AF-like nametag) were not allowed on the AF style service uniforms for CAP.  IT has nothing to do with allowing those who are overweight to wear a more Air Force-like uniform.  YMMV.   

I would like to see the modifications DNall has suggested, since I don't think the blue corporate service dress uniform is going anywhere anytime soon.   

Plus here's the thing, that becomes the precedent to standardize some things down the road: For instance, it'd be nice to be able to sue the same AF-style lightweight & all-weather coats w/ both combinations & the same insignia setup. It'd be nice to bring blue grade slides w/ CAP embroidered on them over to the blues side some day, back like it used to be. I don't think they'd let us wear metal grade on the blues service coat even in teh way specified, but that same blue slide in that postion would be nice, as would a black one for that matter. Be nice to get down the road to a uniform along those lines, and this TPU fiasco could be used a s a stepping tone to that stuff some day in theory maybe, but not as it's set up now. So what's the big deal making a couple minor changes.

I agree.  It should not be that big a deal to make the TPU more CAP-specific.  But if my theory about how this uniform came into being is correct, making the TPU more CAP-specific will be very difficult.

I, too long for the day when all CAP personnel can again wear blue shoulder marks, blue nametags, and metal rank insignia on the blue AF service/service dress uniforms.

[DNall]

What I said abou tthe vision is avail out in the ether, just do some looking.

[lordmonar]

Well anyway, I don't think anyone's necessarily arguing for it to go away. I think modification is the word. Embroider CAP on the AF grade slides so they are now "distinctivly marked blue CAP grade slides" & not an AF uniform item. Also go to pin on CAP halfway btwn the metal grade & button for the jacket & all the Army style outter wear, all that allows you to put the US back on the lapel. Okay now so that hasn't negatetd the investment anyone has made. Just swap out a couple insignia items & everyone's okay, maybe not loving it, but satisfied.

But don't you think the USAF would have asked us to do that, if they had a problem with is?  I mean they asked us to go to two line name tag and up CAP cut-outs on the TPU service coat.

Again...I think this is a non-issue.

[DNall]

CAP was strongly encouraged to do those things, but it wasn't an order from AF. AF cannot officially comment on things they do not have oversight on, and that includes this uniform. I'm sure the Secretary can do whatever he wants, but no one from there to CAP-USAF can. They could actually arrest somebody, but obviously that's not a good idea for anyone. Feel free to swing out there to Maxwell with beer money & ask what the deal is. Go track down your JA, present a fair telling of both sides & ask if they can see a legal or risk mgmt issues for concurrently serving enlisted and/or CAP organizationally if problems occur that they were negligent in preventing.

[lordmonar]

Don't need to...I know I am not in volation of the UCMJ.  CAP-USAF would have sent out a notice to all us military type folks in CAP warning us off of wearing the uniform...they would have also pushed the issue with the BOG and SECAF would have said something.

Seeing as how the paid professionals at CAP-USAF are not sending out warning to us airman I'm pretty sure I'm safe.

So bottom line.  This is NOT an issue.  Next subject.

[DNall]

So the lack of action you take to mean you're in the clear? Kinda like there's no proof santa is fake so he must be real. I mean you're right no one is going to get charged with a crime, no one staid in this thread that they would. The contention was just that it's a technical violation that isn't well liked by most people in the AF & it's not good to puch them around on these things cause it tends to come back to haunt you elsewhere.

I've talked to some people I trust with my life that have been very close to the situation & relay a less than pretty picture of the issue in the eyes of CAP-USAF & supposedly that view was handed to them from higher in the chain. 

[lordmonar]

Dnall...PM me your E-mail and I will send a E-mail to the CAP-USAF/JA and ask the question.  I'll CC you on the inital E-mail and forward any response I may get.

[Major_Chuck]

Well anyway, I don't think anyone's necessarily arguing for it to go away. I think modification is the word. Embroider CAP on the AF grade slides so they are now "distinctivly marked blue CAP grade slides" & not an AF uniform item. Also go to pin on CAP halfway btwn the metal grade & button for the jacket & all the Army style outter wear, all that allows you to put the US back on the lapel. Okay now so that hasn't negatetd the investment anyone has made. Just swap out a couple insignia items & everyone's okay, maybe not loving it, but satisfied.

But don't you think the USAF would have asked us to do that, if they had a problem with is?  I mean they asked us to go to two line name tag and up CAP cut-outs on the TPU service coat.

Again...I think this is a non-issue.

Very much a non-issue that we are mashing into the ground.  If the Air Force (via CAP-USAF) had a problem with the uniform they would have very much made their opinion know, case in point the whole ID card adventure we had.

The clincher on the TPU that seperated it away from the Air Force was probably the white shirt and double (ugly) breasted service coat.

[DNall]

Once again, CAP-USAF cannot comment on items they do not have jurisdiction over. Hence they do control ID cards & do NOT control corporate uniforms. They CAP-USAF CC cannot go running off at the mouth when everyone assumes he's speaking on behalf of the AF. The AF  in general cannot push CAP around on such issues, and they've been slapped down several times by Congress for trying, most recently there in 2000.

[lordmonar]

Once again, CAP-USAF cannot comment on items they do not have jurisdiction over.

They certainly advise me as a USAF member on whether I may be buying an Article 15 by wearing the TPU....that in fact is there job!

Hence they do control ID cards & do NOT control corporate uniforms. They CAP-USAF CC cannot go running off at the mouth when everyone assumes he's speaking on behalf of the AF. The AF  in general cannot push CAP around on such issues, and they've been slapped down several times by Congress for trying, most recently there in 2000.

Then where are you getting all your intel about how the USAF is upset about this and that.  You have seveal times hinted that you knew some, who knew someone who in fact is running off at the mouth.

[DNall]

Actually their job is NOT to advise you as an AF member. They provide oversight on behalf of Air Staff, and that's it. I PM'd you about the other & the individual I mentioned as  primary source does not work for CAP-USAF.

[NAYBOR]

WHAT??!!?!!?  SANTA AIN'T REAL???!!?!?!? 

[AlphaSigOU]

WHAT??!!?!!?  SANTA AIN'T REAL???!!?!?!? 

Bah, humbug... it's all one crassly commercialized holiday! 

[lordmonar]

Actually their job is NOT to advise you as an AF member. They provide oversight on behalf of Air Staff, and that's it. I PM'd you about the other & the individual I mentioned as  primary source does not work for CAP-USAF.

I did not say that it was their job....but they would certainly be the experts on the spot to advice an Airman of the legal consequences of also being a member of CAP.

Sure...I should go to my local JAG office...and they would go up their chain to AF JAG who would staff the issue down to CAP-USAF.

So I am just going to cut out the middle man and get a flat no nonsense answer. (I hope).

[DNall]

It's fine, they are just in a wierd ethical position that they can't by orders talk about CAP policies the AF doesn't control, cause it gives the appearance they're talking for the AF, who has been slapped around for doing that in the past. I'm affraid what you'll get is something like... 'There's been no legal ruling to that effect (cause there's not cause no one's been charged, and they aren't about to be), but if your local Chain has an issue with it then our advice is don't wear that combination.' or maybe just the brush that USAF doesn't have policy control over CAP corporate uniforms. I don't know, maybe they'll give you a great straight forward no BS answer, but knowing a past CAP-USAF commander pretty well I worry they won't be able to give you a decisive statement.

I do understand not going thru your local JA though. I wouldn't either. If they decide against it then that makes trouble locally that your guys don't need.

[O-Rex]

Also go to pin on CAP halfway btwn the metal grade & button for the jacket & all the Army style outter wear, all that allows you to put the US back on the lapel.

Actually, TP tried to run that up the flagpole about two years ago: we were to wear pin-on rank on the USAF coat, with the CAP shield as a "unit crest."  It got shot down, and the rest you already know....