Encampment / Other Unit Emblems on Black T-Shirts

[TheSkyHornet]

Question regarding the wear of BDU items:
Who is the authority on authorizing the wear of an encampment logo on a black undershirt worn with BDUs, and to what extent is a "unit designation emblem" considered to be authorized?

Per CAPM 39-1:

5.1.1.4. T-Shirt. A black short or long sleeved t-shirt will be worn under the BDU shirt.
Unit commanders may prescribe unit designation emblems, subject to the approval of the wing
commander, not to exceed 5 inches in diameter, in cloth or silk screen, worn on the left side of chest.
Neither unit designation emblems nor commercial logos will be visible when wearing the BDU coat
(shirt). Black turtlenecks may also be authorized; thermal undergarments may be black, white, brown, or
cream colored and are authorized for wear as weather conditions warrant. T-shirts and turtlenecks will not
have pockets and all must be tucked into the trousers. Sleeves of long-sleeved t-shirts will not be visible
if BDU shirt cuffs are rolled up.

My understanding here is that a Wing Commander may approve a logo for a Wing-hosted encampment to be worn at the encampment, but this does not trickle down that authority to allow Squadron Commanders to authorize that same shirt at the home unit, nor any other shirt, without specific approval from the Wing Commander.

I see quite a few squadrons allowing cadets to wear encampment shirts with their BDUs (always black), often displaying the emblem for encampment or a cadet's name/staff position at that encampment (i.e., "Encampment 2015 [logo]" on the front and "PAO" on the back). I've also seen cadets wearing logos on shirts from their former squadrons before they transferred to a new unit.

While I understand that these can be authorized by Squadron Commanders, they need Wing Commander approval, which I would believe to be written and specific to that request, not some general "Wear your unit emblem on your black shirt" and then Squadron Commanders accept that as any unit emblem, not just the home unit. My belief is that an encampment emblem is not a unit emblem, and per the reg quoted above, it would not qualify for authorization.

Also, shouldn't such an authorization by a Squadron Commander, as approved by the Wing Commander, be in writing to the unit, as well, and not tribal knowledge? There seems to be a lot of "I don't see a problem with..." when it comes to the wear of uniforms, especially when a manual exists for this very subject.

Note: This is strictly in regard to BDU wear, not PT or any other uniform/civilian attire worn at the unit. I tried the search function and it's just endless scrolling through key words.

[lordmonar]

Since it is wing commander's authority being abuse......it is up to the wing commander to enforce.

If you see your peer commanders allowing what you think is wrong you bring it up to that commander or up to the wing commander.

Bottom Line.

If the local commander is allowing it....then no amount of stomping your foot and Yelling "this is not right!" is going to change it unless the wing commander is willing to enforce it.

As for authorization from wing commander......no where does it say it must be in writing nor that it be specific to a particular request.

YMMV.

[TheSkyHornet]

Since it is wing commander's authority being abuse......it is up to the wing commander to enforce.

If you see your peer commanders allowing what you think is wrong you bring it up to that commander or up to the wing commander.

Bottom Line.

If the local commander is allowing it....then no amount of stomping your foot and Yelling "this is not right!" is going to change it unless the wing commander is willing to enforce it.

As for authorization from wing commander......no where does it say it must be in writing nor that it be specific to a particular request.

YMMV.

How can you prove a non-written authorization?

[lordmonar]

Who do I have to prove it to?

[TheSkyHornet]

Who do I have to prove it to?

I'm not saying this from a questioning authority standpoint. There are a lot of Commanders who are completely clueless when it comes to uniform standards. It's not meant to be an insult, but they just don't know. A lot of them have no military experience and are really in the dark on that stuff. So my question stands: How do to verify that a Wing Commander authorized a uniform item?

It's a common theme on this forum to point at that unit commanders do not have the authority to circumvent or usurp CAPM 39-1 when it comes to authorizing uniform items. This seems to be especially common of a topic in regard to cadet programs. A lot of units allow cadets to wear garment items not authorized by CAPM 39-1, including jewelry, outer coats, gloves, hats, you name it. Usually when it comes to winter wear, safety is the coverall. But this is not the point here.

Before I take the subject to a Squadron Commander or higher echelon (and going to the Wing Commander seems to be a clear cut away from the chain of command), I want to know where people stand on the matter, which is my purpose for bringing it to CAP Talk first. Where's the authority and what is the extent of that authority. Is an encampment shirt considered an authorized unit emblem for wear at the individual unit? My interpretation of 5.1.1.4 says no. Someone else may have a different interpretation that I'd like to hear, especially the shack I'll get from this when I have a bunch of people, especially cadets, wanting to know why the pot got stirred.

[lordmonar]

The only opinions that count in regulation interpretation is the chain of command's.

Is an encampment shirt authorized at the unit level?   That is up to the unit commander unless he has guidance from on high.
You are of course free and in fact duty bound to challenge members if you feel they are violating regulations and to report those supposed violations to higher head quarters.

But if higher head quarters doesn't do anything about it.....then it is de facto authorized.

[Ned]

I guess I'm a little confused by the question, too.

In the great majority of wings, the squadron commander's boss is the wing commander.  If the squadron commander wants to confirm that the wing cc has or has not authorized a thing, they can pick up the phone and ask.  Could take less than 30 seconds to get the answer with absolutely no chain of command issues.  Just a subordinate commander asking her/his boss to clarify some guidance.  Happens all the time.

In wings with groups, it could take a little bit longer, I suppose.

Separate question: how would anyone know what a cadet in BDUs has stenciled on his/her t-shirt unless it shows at the collar? 

What am I missing?

[THRAWN]

Who do I have to prove it to?

I'm not saying this from a questioning authority standpoint. There are a lot of Commanders who are completely clueless when it comes to uniform standards. It's not meant to be an insult, but they just don't know. A lot of them have no military experience and are really in the dark on that stuff. So my question stands: How do to verify that a Wing Commander authorized a uniform item?

It's not up to you to verify that. If your commander says's it's GTG, then that's the end of it. You should know that from your vast experience.

[THRAWN]

I guess I'm a little confused by the question, too.

In the great majority of wings, the squadron commander's boss is the wing commander.  If the squadron commander wants to confirm that the wing cc has or has not authorized a thing, they can pick up the phone and ask.  Could take less than 30 seconds to get the answer with absolutely no chain of command issues.  Just a subordinate commander asking her/his boss to clarify some guidance.  Happens all the time.

In wings with groups, it could take a little bit longer, I suppose.

Separate question: how would anyone know what a cadet in BDUs has stenciled on his/her t-shirt unless it shows at the collar?

What am I missing?

I used to wear my lucky Slayer shirt on REDCAPs. It was black, you couldn't see the shirt under my uniform, never had any issues...these days I do the same under a different uniform. Nothing shows, and unless I'm taking my shirt off, no one knows...

[Storm Chaser]

If it doesn't show, there shouldn't be an issue. A commander can authorize things verbally, but it's better when it's in writing and published. And if there's questions, a simple call or e-mail would help clarify things, even in wings with groups. But that's why it's better to approve things in writing and make it available to everyone; there's less chance for confusion that way.

[Alaric]

If it doesn't show, there shouldn't be an issue.

Except that entire integrity thing. 

[Storm Chaser]

If it doesn't show, there shouldn't be an issue.

Except that entire integrity thing.

And as usual, CAP members continue to focus on the wrong things. In my 19 years in the military, no one has ever cared what logos are on my t-shirt (usually none, but sometimes an old unit or school emblem) or what color are my socks (usually black), as long as they don't show. We focus on more important things. I've never spent as much time discussing uniforms in the Air Force as I do in CAP. Why? No wonder in another thread many have posted that without Air Force-style uniforms many (most?) members would leave CAP.

If after so many years of exemplary CAP service my integrity is going to be questioned on the basis of my t-shirt, so be it. I have more important things to worry about.

[Holding Pattern]

If it doesn't show, there shouldn't be an issue.

Except that entire integrity thing.

I would hope that not needing to buy un-necessary clothes when functionally existing ones are available wouldn't fall under the category of "integrity." 

Unless you are offering to buy all the cadets in my squadron some new shirts, in which case:  :clap:

[TheSkyHornet]

If it doesn't show, there shouldn't be an issue.

I used to wear my lucky Slayer shirt

Everyone shows up wearing their BDUs. Nobody knows what they're wearing underneath. Orders to de-blouse go out. Two people are wearing Slayer shirts.

I guess I'm a little confused by the question, too.

In the great majority of wings, the squadron commander's boss is the wing commander.  If the squadron commander wants to confirm that the wing cc has or has not authorized a thing, they can pick up the phone and ask.  Could take less than 30 seconds to get the answer with absolutely no chain of command issues.  Just a subordinate commander asking her/his boss to clarify some guidance.  Happens all the time.

In wings with groups, it could take a little bit longer, I suppose.

Separate question: how would anyone know what a cadet in BDUs has stenciled on his/her t-shirt unless it shows at the collar? 

What am I missing?

If that's the case, why should CAPM 39-1 mention anything about undershirts not having pockets?

What's the point of a uniform manual addressing what can or cannot be on your uniform items if nobody sees them? Because in the event that somebody does see them, I suppose.

Uniform = key word. Uniformity. The same.

But this seems to not be such a big deal. Case closed.

[Storm Chaser]

But this seems to not be such a big deal. Case closed.

Or maybe it's made to be too much of a big deal.

Look, I get it. I'm actually big on wearing my uniform correctly. I always measure every badge on my blue service shirt or service dress jacket until it's perfect. I've had my BDU patches re-sewn because they were off by an 1/8 of an inch. My point is that, while we have many CAP members that can't seem to wear their uniforms correctly no matter how many times it's addressed, other members seem to spend most/too much of their time worrying about uniform minutia. That just doesn't happen in the military to the degree that it happens in CAP.

Heck, I've been guilty of wearing a small military emblem on my t-shirt with CAP BDUs. I just don't de-blouse. But I can see the issue if you had to take your BDU shirt off. That said, while some folks are worrying about whether a t-shirt has an unauthorized pocket or logo that no one can see, others are tirelessly working on our missions and programs. I'm not saying that these are mutually exclusive (they're not). But that there's a point where making too much of a big deal about something so small (think asking members to take their BDU shirts off just to inspect if they have the right t-shirt on) has very little return on investment. That limited time can be better spent elsewhere. YMMV.

[Ned]

So it sounds like we agree that you should not be doing routine underwear inspections of cadets.   



And I suspect we also agree that if the rare instance that a BDU shirt is removed "in the immediate work area" (CAPM 39-1, para 5.1.1), and a member's black crew neck t-shirt has something other than a 5 inch uniform emblem approved by a commander on the left chest, then the supervisor might say something to the effect of:

1.   "Hey, that's not authorized.  Unless you have another t-shirt handy, I'll need you to put your BDU shirt back on." Or maybe,

2.  "Cadet take a quick look at para 5.1.1.4 and tell me how that applies to your t-shirt".  Or maybe

3.  "Wow.  Slayer, huh?  Cool.  Stay out of public view unless you put your BDU shirt back on, and be sure to wear an authorized t-shirt next time.

Problem solved.

[TheSkyHornet]

But this seems to not be such a big deal. Case closed.

Or maybe it's made to be too much of a big deal.

Look, I get it. I'm actually big on wearing my uniform correctly. I always measure every badge on my blue service shirt or service dress jacket until it's perfect. I've had my BDU patches re-sewn because they were off by an 1/8 of an inch. My point is that, while we have many CAP members that can't seem to wear their uniforms correctly no matter how many times it's addressed, other members seem to spend most/too much of their time worrying about uniform minutia. That just doesn't happen in the military to the degree that it happens in CAP.

Heck, I've been guilty of wearing a small military emblem on my t-shirt with CAP BDUs. I just don't de-blouse. But I can see the issue if you had to take your BDU shirt off. That said, while some folks are worrying about whether a t-shirt has an unauthorized pocket or logo that no one can see, others are tirelessly working on our missions and programs. I'm not saying that these are mutually exclusive (they're not). But that there's a point where making too much of a big deal about something so small (think asking members to take their BDU shirts off just to inspect if they have the right t-shirt on) has very little return on investment. That limited time can be better spent elsewhere. YMMV.

As I said: case closed. It's really that easy for me. I posted it for the feedback and ideas on how to handle it, and I appreciate the responses. Done deal.

It isn't such a big deal. Moving on.

So it sounds like we agree that you should not be doing routine underwear inspections of cadets.   



And I suspect we also agree that if the rare instance that a BDU shirt is removed "in the immediate work area" (CAPM 39-1, para 5.1.1), and a member's black crew neck t-shirt has something other than a 5 inch uniform emblem approved by a commander on the left chest, then the supervisor might say something to the effect of:

1.   "Hey, that's not authorized.  Unless you have another t-shirt handy, I'll need you to put your BDU shirt back on." Or maybe,

2.  "Cadet take a quick look at para 5.1.1.4 and tell me how that applies to your t-shirt".  Or maybe

3.  "Wow.  Slayer, huh?  Cool.  Stay out of public view unless you put your BDU shirt back on, and be sure to wear an authorized t-shirt next time.

Problem solved.

Problem solved.

[Storm Chaser]

So it sounds like we agree that you should not be doing routine underwear inspections of cadets.   



And I suspect we also agree that if the rare instance that a BDU shirt is removed "in the immediate work area" (CAPM 39-1, para 5.1.1), and a member's black crew neck t-shirt has something other than a 5 inch uniform emblem approved by a commander on the left chest, then the supervisor might say something to the effect of:

1.   "Hey, that's not authorized.  Unless you have another t-shirt handy, I'll need you to put your BDU shirt back on." Or maybe,

2.  "Cadet take a quick look at para 5.1.1.4 and tell me how that applies to your t-shirt".  Or maybe

3.  "Wow.  Slayer, huh?  Cool.  Stay out of public view unless you put your BDU shirt back on, and be sure to wear an authorized t-shirt next time.

Problem solved.

:clap:

[Nuke52]

If it doesn't show, there shouldn't be an issue.

Except that entire integrity thing.

So I s'pose you've never driven even 1 mph over a posted, legal speed limit, eh?  You know, integrity and all...

[baronet68]

So it sounds like we agree that you should not be doing routine underwear inspections of cadets.   



And I suspect we also agree that if the rare instance that a BDU shirt is removed "in the immediate work area" (CAPM 39-1, para 5.1.1), and a member's black crew neck t-shirt has something other than a 5 inch uniform emblem approved by a commander on the left chest, then the supervisor might say something to the effect of:

1.   "Hey, that's not authorized.  Unless you have another t-shirt handy, I'll need you to put your BDU shirt back on." Or maybe,

2.  "Cadet take a quick look at para 5.1.1.4 and tell me how that applies to your t-shirt".  Or maybe

3.  "Wow.  Slayer, huh?  Cool.  Stay out of public view unless you put your BDU shirt back on, and be sure to wear an authorized t-shirt next time.

Problem solved.

Another possible option (if circumstances allow) would be to wear the offending t-shirt inside-out.