CAP moving to the DoD

[MIKE]

Knock it off.

[RiverAux]

There is no real need for an MOU between CAP and DHS now.  If DHS wants to use us they can just call the NOC on a case-by-case basis.  If they need us during disaster situations they can still get us involved just like FEMA has for decades.

That being said, a formal MOU would definetely make things go easier.   

[John Bryan]

There HAS been talk about making CAP the 8th branch of uniformed services, joining the military branches plus the USPHS and the Commissioned Corps of the NOAA.  That is do-able, but leaves the Cadet Program without a military sponsor.

Why not conduct our own cadet program....if we were a uniformed service we could do that. As for military sponsor.....CP is NOT an Air Force Assigned Mission....no real change.

Also someone said something above about a 4 star to run CAP.....lets look at the uniformed services ....the 5 military services are lead by 4 stars....BUT
the US Public Health Service is lead by the US Surgeon General , a Vice Admiral (3 star)....for the record there is one 4 star slot in the PHS, but it is not always filed....under the law when the President appoints a person the Asst Sec for Health (aka the ASH) at HHS they can take a comission as an  Admiral. The PHS has about 6500 officers....I believe the law allows them 10% to make flag. As for NOAA Commissioned Corps Officers they are lead by a Rear Admiral or 2 star. I think there are less then 4000 NOAA officers.

The biggest difference between USPHS and NOAA is that their officers are full time , paid and all have commissions. But they are also both smaller then CAP or the USCG Aux...I dont know....it might be apples and oranges.

I do not think CAP  will ever be made the 8th uniformed service ......if we raised are standards it might work. I just can't see Congress going for it.

Tags - MIKE

[ZigZag911]

I don't see where independence would benefit us; we don't have the logistical framework to do a 'stand alone' operation!

I also really don't see a need for this.

[John Bryan]

I don't see where independence would benefit us; we don't have the logistical framework to do a 'stand alone' operation!

I also really don't see a need for this.

How would being part of the Dept of Transportation or Dept of Homeland Security be any more independent then being a private corperation that gets to sometimes be part of the Dept of the Air Force. I think any move to make us a government agency is a good move. Remember we went from 1941 to 1947 as part of the government before becoming CAP INC.....

so there are a few issues...

1. CAP Inc vs. CAP the government agency (or USAF Aux).
2. USAF Aux vs. part of another federal agency.

But no mattter how you would do it we would "belong" to someone....there are very very few independent agency ....one example would be the NTSB.

We could keep the uniforms even if we were not a "Uniformed Service" , there are a lot of federal agencies with uniforms.....National Park Service, ICE, US Park Police, Forest Service.

Again....I am not saying we should be moved but I also think there should always be an open mind to if a move would be right. The USCG move from DOT to HLS was right because of the times we live in.....not sure now is the time for any moves....but always it is proper to be open to consideration.

[ZigZag911]

Sorry, I was referring to standing CAP up as a separate agency within DOD....don't see the likelihood, don't really see any point or benefit to it.

As for bouncing us to another federal agency.....for good or ill, we've been part of the USAF family pretty much as long as there has been a USAF...somehow leaving "family" just doesn't sit well with me....besides, what makes us so sure DHS wants us?

[John Bryan]

As for bouncing us to another federal agency.....for good or ill, we've been part of the USAF family pretty much as long as there has been a USAF...somehow leaving "family" just doesn't sit well with me....besides, what makes us so sure DHS wants us?
[/quote]


First ....I can't say too many times I am not saying we need or should move. But we always should be open to it. A lot of people have your objection, we have always been part of the AF family .....I would say how long we have been part of the AF family is not the issue. Where do we best serve America? The US Coast Guard was part of the US Dept of the Tres from 1790 to 1968, a very long time. But when the US DOT was stood up they were moved because it was a better fit....then after 9/11 they were moved to HLS because it was a better fit for their changing mission.

We need to always make our choices from the POV, whats best for America not whats best for ME or my group.

At this point I have seen nothing that says America would be better served with us in DOT or HLS, BUT my objection is most member dismiss the idea without even considering it because of the "thats what we've always done" additude.  Again focus on this mission and the country.

[Dragoon]

What makes moving hard is that our missions are all over the place.

If finding lost planes was our stock in trade, DOT makes for a pretty good fit.

If disaster relief was most important, then FEMA (HLS) works out well.  And if FEMA ends up playing a bigger role in SAR, even better.

But a military cadet program works best when aligned under a military service.  So unless CAP was somehow merged with CGAUX so that our cadets became CG cadets instead....USAF seems the best fit.

There always seems to be tension between CP and Ops.

[Tubacap]

If it makes anyone feel better.  A decent amount of people want FEMA moved out of DHS, so that it can more efficiently funciton.

[John Bryan]

IIRC before HLS I think FEMA was an independent federal agency.

(Also I was wrong about PHS....they are limited to 1% flag officers.....right now there are about 50 active duty PHS ADM's.)

[mikeylikey]

^ 50 Flag Officers for such a small organization.  That is amazing.

[ddelaney103]

^ 50 Flag Officers for such a small organization.  That is amazing.

Why?  They're all officers, mostly doctors and often they're inserted into a civilian/military chain of command pretty far up the ladder.

[mikeylikey]

^ 50 Flag Officers for such a small organization.  That is amazing.

Why?  They're all officers, mostly doctors and often they're inserted into a civilian/military chain of command pretty far up the ladder.

As a tax payer.....we are paying a huge amount of money for each Admiral.  Why are there so many?  Can't a lower ranking doctor do the same job as an Admiral?  Also, most of the Uniformed Services (military) have their own Doctors.  (Coast Guard uses PHS doctors right?)  So, why does the PHS even exist?  Many of the billets can be filled by Contract Doctors from what I read on the PHS job site.  Seriously.....why are we paying for PHS Doctors in Federal Prisons when we could easily have a civilian Doctor there instead. 

[John Bryan]

^ 50 Flag Officers for such a small organization.  That is amazing.

Why?  They're all officers, mostly doctors and often they're inserted into a civilian/military chain of command pretty far up the ladder.

As a tax payer.....we are paying a huge amount of money for each Admiral.  Why are there so many?  Can't a lower ranking doctor do the same job as an Admiral?  Also, most of the Uniformed Services (military) have their own Doctors.  (Coast Guard uses PHS doctors right?)  So, why does the PHS even exist?  Many of the billets can be filled by Contract Doctors from what I read on the PHS job site.  Seriously.....why are we paying for PHS Doctors in Federal Prisons when we could easily have a civilian Doctor there instead. 

Some people ask the same thing about CAP.....why not have the state police look for lost planes.....etc, etc, etc.....

As for the PHS flag officers most of them are in senior positions with the CDC, FDA or other agencies....so their GS pay level would be about the same or more. You won't find a RADM seeing patients in a federal prision or on in an indian hospital.

As for wasted money, it's not.....In fact GS paid nurses in federal prisions make more then the PHS officers but the officers get other things like veterans benifits.

As for other services having docs....yes they do...but PHS serves with in a lot of cases.....the PHS helps staff the USNS Mercy and have officer who have served in Iraq helping to rebuild that nations health care system. There web site does a better job explaining it then me....

www.usphs.gov

NOAA and PHS serve us well.....just because most people don't understand their mission and role doesn't mean they are a waste.

[RogueLeader]

and this has what bearing on CAP?

[mikeylikey]

^ Nothing whatsover.  I promise I am trying to curb my wild and wondrous rants and drifts.  It is taking longer to break the habit! 

^ Yeah....sorry again!   :angel:

[John Bryan]

and this has what bearing on CAP?

I think we got off on this because we were talking about moving CAP. To that end posters have discussed other agencies and how CAP might fit. We have also talked about examples of other federal agencies that have moved to better serve the country. Some also think CAP could learn a lot from the 7 uniformed services...esp NOAA and PHS because like us they are not armed or military.  Of course in reviewing this the fact we are not a government agency or uniformed service but rather cap INC, I guess it has nothing to do with CAP, sorry

[JayT]

and this has what bearing on CAP?

I think we got off on this because we were talking about moving CAP. To that end posters have discussed other agencies and how CAP might fit. We have also talked about examples of other federal agencies that have moved to better serve the country. Some also think CAP could learn a lot from the 7 uniformed services...esp NOAA and PHS because like us they are not armed or military.  Of course in reviewing this the fact we are not a government agency or uniformed service but rather cap INC, I guess it has nothing to do with CAP, sorry

We are a uniformed service, and a government agency when we need to be. (And yes, I do understand that you were being sarcastic.)

Just because we don't get to call ourselves the US Air Force Auxiliary all the time doesn't mean we should be bitter about the fact.

[John Bryan]

and this has what bearing on CAP?

I think we got off on this because we were talking about moving CAP. To that end posters have discussed other agencies and how CAP might fit. We have also talked about examples of other federal agencies that have moved to better serve the country. Some also think CAP could learn a lot from the 7 uniformed services...esp NOAA and PHS because like us they are not armed or military.  Of course in reviewing this the fact we are not a government agency or uniformed service but rather cap INC, I guess it has nothing to do with CAP, sorry

We are a uniformed service, and a government agency when we need to be. (And yes, I do understand that you were being sarcastic.)

Just because we don't get to call ourselves the US Air Force Auxiliary all the time doesn't mean we should be bitter about the fact.

I was being a little sarcastic....but not bitter. I think one of the issues maybe missed is in your statement. The issue is not if CAP would be better in the AF / DOD or another agency like DOT. The issue is what is CAP and where do we belong? I wish we were a federal agency but we are not. I wish we were part of the AF or another part of government , but we are not. We are not a uniformed service. How we feel about CAP and our service does not change the fact that we are "Civil Air Patrol INC" and at best we are sometimes a tool of the AF or the government. We are a "private organization" supported with some tax payer funds.....there are a lot of groups that do get tax dollars.

[JayT]

Well, in all honestly, I do wish  we were back to full time Auxiliary status. I wish we would conform to the British ATC model, and have Squadron Commanders and above hold some sort of volunteer comission. Etc Etc.