Should cadets be allowed to conduct SUI interviews

[JoeTomasone]

A senior cadet could have a role in helping his home squadron prepare for the inspection. That would provide plenty of opportunity to learn about the process.

A cadet as a member of the inspection team? No.

But what if it was "The Chairman"?   

[billford1]

Cadets have important roles in the Cadet Program and I'm impressed with what they do.  I don't favor increasing the scope of their responsibilities to include seniors particularly those not involved in Cadet Programs.
The last two SUI Inspections I've participated in involved the Wing IG a Retired AF Col and members of Wing Staff. This is serious Business. I think Cadets benefit from training in many areas but all things considered an SUI Inspection is definitely not the place.

[Chappie]

Having gone through several SUIs and a Wing Compliance Inspection, I would say "No".   As pointed out, these inspections are integral to determining whether or not an unit is mission-ready and compliant.  Cadets -- no matter their rank (even if it is the Chairman) -- do not realize or have been exposed to the organization and its operation to make sound evaluations or observations.  I'm not too sure if I would even want them to be a casual observer of the process.

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

Appearances.

Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.

What tests do cadets take that "might as well be college level"?

Honestly, if you sent a cadet to interview me for an SUI, you wold be looking for my replacement as I would quit due to the lack of respect you would have shown me.

Though I agree with others when they say, "No, a Cadet should not be conducting Unit Inspections", that was pretty close minded of you to say you would quit (Which is not a good example to set) because a Cadet was sent. It would also be very insulting and disrespectful to the Cadet who was sent to conduct the Inspection.

That is just my two cents...

[EMT-83]

First, sweat through a couple of inspections. Then come back and let us know if you still have that opinion.

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

First, sweat through a couple of inspections. Then come back and let us know if you still have that opinion.

I just agreed that a Cadet shouldn't conduct inspections... we are Cadets. We are in Civil Air Patrol to mostly Learn and Lead, not Command. I just felt that, arajca's, comment was close minded and a little bit insulting.

I wouldn't want to conduct unit inspections, that is a little bit too much responsibility for my rank.

[Eclipse]

The short answer is no.

But a couple of other comments.

An SUI is not rocket science, a "how to run a squadron" class, or a witch hunt.  It is a a series of basically yes/no questions which are then substantiated to the satisfaction of the examiner.  Much of it is completely objective.

Remediation and consequences are the responsibility of the higher HQ once the report is published.  As a Group CC, I don't want some random "master" on an IG team advising my units on the "Way", especially in areas that are subjective.  That's my job.  Fill out the forms and I'll help them fix things.  So a master rating is not a requirement.

By definition it is a higher HQ inspecting a "subordinate", therefore it is either a Wing inspecting a Group, or  Group inspecting a unit.  Since for practical reasons few wings and groups have cadets assigned, its a fairly moot point, anyway.

[RiverAux]

By definition it is a higher HQ inspecting a "subordinate", therefore it is either a Wing inspecting a Group, or  Group inspecting a unit.  Since for practical reasons few wings and groups have cadets assigned, its a fairly moot point, anyway.

Well, you are correct that the inspection is being done for the higher level unit and that almost no cadets are assigned to those units BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that all those on the inspection team are assigned to that higher level either.  You can have a member of an inspection team that just happens to be assigned to another squadron (so far as I know). 

[Eclipse]

By definition it is a higher HQ inspecting a "subordinate", therefore it is either a Wing inspecting a Group, or  Group inspecting a unit.  Since for practical reasons few wings and groups have cadets assigned, its a fairly moot point, anyway.

Well, you are correct that the inspection is being done for the higher level unit and that almost no cadets are assigned to those units BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that all those on the inspection team are assigned to that higher level either.  You can have a member of an inspection team that just happens to be assigned to another squadron (so far as I know).

Yes, you're correct, in fact my inspection team has someone from a different group helping, so its possible, but not practial.

[FlyTiger77]

From what I understood you now have to go through the IG basic course to be on SUI teams. 

River,

From what I read in CAPR 123-3, para 12(e), an SUI team must consist of at least two "highly qualified inspectors," which the regulation defines as a team member "...who has completed the Inspector General Basic Course and is a current subject matter expert..." (para 3(g)).

Does this mean that the team can consist of other team members who have NOT completed the IG Basic Course? I would argue that that is what the regulation implies, since the regulation doesn't define "team member" but does define Highly Qualified Inspectors as a "team member" with additional qualifications; therefore, there are at least two possible classifications of members on an SUI team.


Please let me know if I am missing something.

v/r

[RiverAux]

Thanks for the reg cite. 

Based on something he said recently, our IG seems to be operating like all team members must be "highly qualified" and have completed the course.  I don't have a clue if that is the correct interpretation or if not highly qualified people can contribute. 

[FlyTiger77]

Of course, a commander can add to, but not take away from, a regulation. If the IG, as the commander's delegated representative, wants a higher standard, that is his/her perogative.

Methinks, however, that it could make staffing for SUIs difficult.

v/r

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If a cadet has the Mitchell, s/he could sit in as a non-participant observer.

[Flying Pig]

I guess a more applicable question would be......Why the $%^& would cadet want to be there to begin with?  Call me crazy, when I was a cadet, this would have been number 1025 on my list of 1000 things I would want to do with my free time.

[Fuzzy]

I guess a more applicable question would be......Why the $%^& would cadet want to be there to begin with?  Call me crazy, when I was a cadet, this would have been number 1025 on my list of 1000 things I would want to do with my free time.

True enough. I got things to text, so I wouldn't have time for an SUI. However I believe the Chairman (Long live the chairman) would probably disagree. Along with other high speed Kaydets who have an interest in different parts of the program.

Appearances.

Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.

What tests do cadets take that "might as well be college level"?

Honestly, if you sent a cadet to interview me for an SUI, you wold be looking for my replacement as I would quit due to the lack of respect you would have shown me.

You must be a fun guy. I'm with Lunsford on that.

Perhaps there could be other reasons to place a Kaydet on an SUI team other than to personally insult you. Kaydets can be on ground teams and I don't hear survivors complaining.

[RiverAux]

While having the cadets inspect the senior staff positions obviously makes no sense and may not be within regs anyway, what about putting some of the cadet staff officers through this "fun" process?

Perhaps there should be a version of the SUI for the cadet staff that could take place at the same time?  Probably wouldn't be as paperwork-focused as the rest of the SUI, but having a high ranking cadet from another unit come in and interview some of the cadet staff about what they're doing could help keep the cadets on track, just like the SUI is supposed to keep the senior staff on track. 

After taking a quick look at 20-1, it seems to me that there would potentially be plenty to talk about

[Rotorhead]

Appearances.

Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.

What tests do cadets take that "might as well be college level"?

Honestly, if you sent a cadet to interview me for an SUI, you wold be looking for my replacement as I would quit due to the lack of respect you would have shown me.

Though I agree with others when they say, "No, a Cadet should not be conducting Unit Inspections", that was pretty close minded of you to say you would quit (Which is not a good example to set) because a Cadet was sent. It would also be very insulting and disrespectful to the Cadet who was sent to conduct the Inspection.

That is just my two cents...

If you were to ask a cadet to evaluate a senior member who has been performing his area of specialty longer than the cadet has been alive, I can see how the senior member would be justifiably insulted and feel he'd been shown a lack of respect.

The cadet, on the other hand, being elevated to a position he does not merit, has no right to feel insulted nor does he merit any special respect in this situation.

[Spike]

I have to say that a CAP Officer who had been in CAP 3 years came to inspect my Squadron once.  One of my Officers told him to go "shove it" when the inspector called him out on a few issues.  When I questioned my Officer, he responded that "the kid had no idea what he was talking about, and had only been in three years he knew nothing".  I responded, "well are the findings true, and he responded "yes, but I have been doing it this way for over 10 years".  Needless to say that member is no longer part of my Squadron, and we are doing better without him.

Would I accept Cadets doing an SUI?  Absolutely not.  I would allow them to observe the process though, and if they wanted to ask questions or have a conversation on something they saw, I would have it. 

[raivo]

Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.

If you completely disregard that many of these "kids" have spent more years in CAP than many adults... then yes, you might possibly have a valid point. By the time I became a senior member, I had 7 years in CAP, which was about three times as long as my squadron commander had been.

Never confuse rank (particularly in CAP) with experience or qualifications.

That being said, CAP doesn't allow cadets to sign off on certain things, simply by virtue of being cadets. I would be fine with having cadets give their input during an SUI, but I wouldn't give them any "authority" over the process.

[lordmonar]

If you completely disregard that many of these "kids" have spent more years in CAP than many adults... then yes, you might possibly have a valid point. By the time I became a senior member, I had 7 years in CAP, which was about three times as long as my squadron commander had been.

Never confuse rank (particularly in CAP) with experience or qualifications.

I completely disagree with this statement.   I disagree with the NB's decision to award CP credit for cadet achievement.


I spent 16+ years in school from Kindergarden through highschool and getting my BA.......does this make me qualified to inspect a kindergarten classroom?  Heck no!

As I said before.....I got nothing against cadets being on the team, doing the leg work, and learning how an SUI is done.....but not being the subject matter experts.  Just as no one would ask a High School Senior to be on an accreditation team.