Starting Anew -- How Should CAP Be Governed?

[RiverAux]

I just continue to be amazed by people's obliviousness to the fact that every organization has politics no matter how in the world it is organized.  We would still have backbiting politics in CAP if every single commander from National down to Squadron were an appointed AF officer. 

Elections put it out in the open for everyone to see where it can be done honestly and in as full view of the membership as possible (you can still have a secret vote, by the way).  Nothing is wrong with politics unless it is done in secret, which is how it works in CAP. 

[Major Carrales]

I just continue to be amazed by people's obliviousness to the fact that every organization has politics no matter how in the world it is organized.  We would still have backbiting politics in CAP if every single commander from National down to Squadron were an appointed AF officer. 

Elections put it out in the open for everyone to see where it can be done honestly and in as full view of the membership as possible (you can still have a secret vote, by the way).  Nothing is wrong with politics unless it is done in secret, which is how it works in CAP.

When the airmen and officers of the USAF elect their colonels and general grade officers, I will entertain the notion for CAP. 

You see, every organization has politics no matter how in the world it is organized and there would still be backbiting politics in CAP if every single commander from National down to Squadron were an appointed AF officer; thus, why create the fiasco of an elections system to create a circus where people spend more time electioneering and posturing?

I've been in organizations ranging from Teacher Organizations to the Knights of Columbus and the hoop-la of elections, preoccupation with electioneering and real negative campaigning have almost ripped those apart.

[cap235629]

Sparky,

It is in the highest tradition of the militia to elect the officers we serve under

[Major Carrales]

Sparky,

It is in the highest tradition of the militia to elect the officers we serve under

I will remember that when we are a militia.  As of now, we are an auxiliary of the USAF and the laws governing "a well regulated militia" to not readily apply.  As a fellow Southerner I am well aware of our traditions en re the militia.

The problems that arise in these matters happens most when we try to apply the methodology and procedures of other organizations to CAP.  CAP exists as it does based on its development and as the evolution of an WWII era Civil Defense program into an adaptable auxiliary force in modern contexts.

We are not strictly controlled by the USAF directly as in the past, nor are we the sort of organization that the Coast Guard Auxiliary is.  It should be pointed out that the USGCAux's primary concern is with boating and water based issues.  They do not operate a fleet of aircraft owned by the corporation or the Coast Guard as CAP does.  Nor do they operate a Cadet Program.

Applying the rules and practices of the Salvation Army, Boy Scouts of America, Coast Guard or even the USAF to CAP (while sounding like the greatest of ideas)...and in a manner that does and would not consider the chaos of any transition period to those systems...is short sightedness and fails to take into account the most tactile issues that would arise from lack of compatibility.

[lordmonar]

I just continue to be amazed by people's obliviousness to the fact that every organization has politics no matter how in the world it is organized.  We would still have backbiting politics in CAP if every single commander from National down to Squadron were an appointed AF officer. 

Elections put it out in the open for everyone to see where it can be done honestly and in as full view of the membership as possible (you can still have a secret vote, by the way).  Nothing is wrong with politics unless it is done in secret, which is how it works in CAP.

That is true.....but some organisations work pefectly fine with little or no democratic process.

We see in CAP what happens when normal office politics mixes with the democratic politics.  Especially when the people doing the voting are also the ones who are selecting the electrorate.

The ideal CAP squadron works with everyone following the lead of the squadorn commander.  He dictates the focus of the squadronds efforts to accomplish the mission that is dictated by the group and wing and guided by the regualations.

It breaks down at the wing level where the wing CC is appointed by the Regional/National commander.  That wing commander now has a 1/53 (IIRC) vote in the policies and direction of the national organisation.  He also has a voice in the future leader of the organisation.

The supposed head of the organisation must have all his/her decisions ratified by the majority of the people he/she is supposed to in charge of. 

This has lead to all the funness we seen in national politics.

There is NO checks and balance.  The NB can do what ever they want no matter how stupid or misguided.  The national command can't make changes because of old guard hold outs from previous adminstations.  The national command does not even get to pick his/her command team...but is forced to accept a vice that is often a political rival and has no desire in seeing the current commander succeed.

By eliminateing these two major points.....the NB and voting for national commander......we eliminate the political ploy of removing wing and regional commanders based on political ideoligy.  We also eliminate the waste of time it takes to make change.

Let's take the new Comm Training program.   It gets suggested at the NB.....who vote it a good idea...send it to committee.  The committee work on it for six months then reports.....someone does not like something, they debate it....it goes back to committee.  This gets worked on and approved by the NEC three months later....it goes to the public for comment and the finally goes back to the NB for the final vote.  Then hopefully it gets implemented after a year in the political process.

If the National CC had the power to just make regulations.....then the Comm guys would write up a white paper.  She would read it....say its a good idea, let's staff it.  They would come up with a plan....send it out for comments from the field.  Write up the changes.  She would then sign the new regulation.  It would get published and implemented based on how fast the new system could come on line....and not wait months for the NB to come along.

The BoG would have veto power over anything if the National CC got out of line.

Steamlining the process all around.

That is just how it would work with mudane processes.

When you look at everything else.....a wing commander screws up.....the National CC or Region CC can fire him with or with out cause and no one will be jumping up and down yelling politics! 

Sure there is still going to be office politics.....there always is.  Who is in and who is out.  But there will be no process for that to be turned into revolution.

Voting for Wing Commander (and if you take this idea to its logical conclustion) qroup and squadron commanders only sets up a system where everyone is fighting for political postion instead of focusing on the mission.

Mission, mission, mission.

How much productivity do we loose because people are focused on national politics and not the mission?

[cap235629]

Sparky all of our military traditions have roots in the militia.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky all of our military traditions have roots in the militia.

True, going back to Lexington and Concord...however, while those roots are firmly planted; the branches and leaves, which we see and that effect our lives, are of a standing Army.

I know what you are getting act, but it does not apply to how CAP operates today.  If CAP truly was "militia" centered, it would not be centralized as it is and it would be a local institution that self deployed based on local needs.

[lordmonar]

Sparky all of our military traditions have roots in the militia.

I would have to disagree with the "all" part.

After early part of the war Washington brought/bought a lot of European expertise who shaped the majority of our military traditions.

While the spirit and traditions of the militia did creep in....you would have to say that Prussian traditions from General Von Stubin form the core our military identity.

[cap235629]

Washington brought Von Stueben in to train the MILITIA as well as the Continental Army.

[RiverAux]

We see in CAP what happens when normal office politics mixes with the democratic politics.  Especially when the people doing the voting are also the ones who are selecting the electrorate.

I agree that that is a problem, but it is irrelevant to 99% of members.

I don't know of a single "regular" squadron level CAP member who has quit because of political conflicts relating to the NB/Nat Cdr.  No one down at squadron level probably really cares much about who is elected by the NB to be National Commander. The problem is that they have no way to influence who their local squadron commander is and even less influence on who their wing commander is.  The politics that everyone complains about is at that level. 

[CAP_truth]

I agree that the NB and NEC should be 2 bodies. The region cc should not be a member of the NB. The national cc and vc should be nominated by the NB and NEC voted by BoG and approved by the Sec AF or his designated official. I remember a time when we had a 2 star national cc and over 120,000 members. If we had that many members today maybe we would have a 2 star senior advisor.

[billford1]

It seems like CAP runs ok most of the time except for all of the problems we have. I heard that at one point the AF wanted to put CAP under the USDOT. Is that true? I know that in some states CAP works pretty close with the NG and ANG. Long timers I talk to remember fondly the days when CAP was like it was in the 1970s. I know that the AF has budget problems and a war to fight. Is there another reason why we're why we divorced from the AF in the 90's in such a way that the neither the U.S. Govt nor the AF could not see any merrit in reorganizing CAP back to where the AF had a bigger role with running CAP? I only ask because I have seen significant AF interest in what we do and their supervision is very helpful. If things keeps going like they are with Govt spending, the economy and inflation the U.S. Govt really should not expect CAP members to keep shelling out and showing up to serve as things get harder for the members to support themselves. There are a lot of big contributors in CAP that are showing up less and less because of how much it costs them to participate. CAP should be considered more worthy financial support than a lot of programs where discretionary Govt dollars go.

[Major Carrales]

I agree that that is a problem, but it is irrelevant to 99% of members.

So then, this democratic nonsense you propose is moot?

[lordmonar]

Washington brought Von Stueben in to train the MILITIA as well as the Continental Army.

Yes...I believe that is what I said.

[lordmonar]

We see in CAP what happens when normal office politics mixes with the democratic politics.  Especially when the people doing the voting are also the ones who are selecting the electorate.

I agree that that is a problem, but it is irrelevant to 99% of members.

I don't know of a single "regular" squadron level CAP member who has quit because of political conflicts relating to the NB/Nat Cdr.  No one down at squadron level probably really cares much about who is elected by the NB to be National Commander. The problem is that they have no way to influence who their local squadron commander is and even less influence on who their wing commander is.  The politics that everyone complains about is at that level.

And voting for the wing and squadron commander will help that?

I would think that it would tear squadrons apart.  Imagine two members vising for the commander spot.  They both carry about half the squadron....One of them wins by 1 vote.   Of course the other candidate and his party just smiles, forgets their differences and bands together with the rest of the squadron for the greater good.  Because we see that happening all the time.

Need I point out what happened in Iowa?  Not only did the looser drop out of CAP...but he poisoned the state legislature and got the funding pulled.

[NCRblues]

Wait, what happened in Iowa? There were elections in Iowa? I must have lost something in translation, can you expand on it?

[lordmonar]

Wait, what happened in Iowa? There were elections in Iowa? I must have lost something in translation, can you expand on it?

The IAWG had a change of command.  Gen Courter countermanded the Region Commander's pick for the wing commander.

The looser got upset.....burned CAP with the National Guard and the State.....CAP lost a bunch of funding and credibility.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Wait, what happened in Iowa? There were elections in Iowa? I must have lost something in translation, can you expand on it?

The IAWG had a change of command.  Gen Courter countermanded the Region Commander's pick for the wing commander.

The looser got upset.....burned CAP with the National Guard and the State.....CAP lost a bunch of funding and credibility.

How you are misguided, and very wrong.  CAP/HQ burned that bridge, not the member that left.

[FARRIER]

I heard that at one point the AF wanted to put CAP under the USDOT. Is that true?

I remember hearing this back around 1993.

[flyguy06]

Voting for Squadron Commanders is not always a good thing in all units. take my unit. Youwould be hard pressed to find anyone that wants to do it. Plus as was said earlier. we are a small squadron. It would definantly create bad blood among the members.

Our Commanders usually stay in until they get tired of it then they decide toleave and ask who wants it. usually no one volunteers and he has to keep doing it.