Danger for Helicopters in Afghanistan

Started by Майор Хаткевич, October 28, 2009, 02:33:42 AM

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Майор Хаткевич

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20091027/us_time/08599193238600

I've considered WOFT before as a potential career choice, and a relatively 'safe' Army job. Guess I was wrong.

MIKE

Mike Johnston

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: MIKE on October 28, 2009, 02:39:47 AM
Why do you think you get flight pay?

An extra bonus for having one of the coolest jobs in the world?  ;D

Flying Pig

....and you've been where for the last 8 years?

DC

I'm surprised there haven't been more helos shot down in Afghanistan. After all, during their war with the Soviets we gave them thousands of man-portable SAMs and taught them how to use 'em...


SarDragon

I considered WOFT in 1968, but my eyesight was deficient.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Flying Pig on October 28, 2009, 03:05:24 AM
....and you've been where for the last 8 years?

These aren't being shot down, they are crashing in the mountains due to the heat/altitude/wind, etc.

Flying Pig

Yup.  I don't fly Blackhawks loaded with troops, however, I will offer this.  Where I work, we are required to have 1800hrs of helicopter turbine time before we are allowed to fly in the high mountains and conduct missions as PIC.  Where I am, we have peaks at 13K.
The Army doesnt have that luxury.  Many of their pilots are flying high DA, high gross weight missions with a few hundred hours under their belt.  Its a task that I tip my hat to.  I sink my teeth into every mountain related accident investigation I can get a hold of for that reason.

Майор Хаткевич

Well part of the problem, or more exactly part of the higher death toll in Afghanistan is the fact that movement on land is limited requiring helicopters to support some 30-40% of outposts. That's a [darn] high number too.

bosshawk

Flying helicopters in the military in time of war is NOT a safe occupation.  There are plenty who say that flying helicopters at any time is not particularly safe.  Cool: yes, safe: maybe not.

I saw a lot of friends(Warrant Officers) flying helicopters in Viet Nam go down to something as simple as an AK-47 round.

If you want safe in the military, I suggest that you look somewhere else.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

Майор Хаткевич

Sir,

I of course understand that it is not a safe occupation, no military position really is, even stateside given the nuts that exist. I was just simply thinking that given enemy fire, yea it is a problem, Tammy Duckworth ran for office in IL, and I know her story relatively well. She lost limbs due to enemy fire while flying a helicopter. What I didn't think about is how the terrain, specifically in Afghanistan effects the flight. Sure I learned about hot, less dense air at 14-15km peaks, but to think just how it impacts military operations wasn't something I had thought about.

NIN

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 28, 2009, 11:44:19 AM
I of course understand that it is not a safe occupation, no military position really is, even stateside given the nuts that exist. I was just simply thinking that given enemy fire, yea it is a problem, Tammy Duckworth ran for office in IL, and I know her story relatively well. She lost limbs due to enemy fire while flying a helicopter. What I didn't think about is how the terrain, specifically in Afghanistan effects the flight. Sure I learned about hot, less dense air at 14-15km peaks, but to think just how it impacts military operations wasn't something I had thought about.

There are a lot of dynamics in helicopter flight that are taken into consideration: density altitude, available power,  gross weight, etc, etc, etc.. Its not as simple as "winds" or "high."  These aircraft are being operated, in some cases, very near to the far ends of their design envelope and at or near regions of the their respective height-velocity diagrams that require extremely attuned piloting skills in the event something goes "wrong."

Another thing to think about: The CH-47 series has a maximum service ceiling of 18,000 ft (more if they can modify the pressurization fo the flight control hydraulic system). Now, you'll see that the UH-60s ceiling is 19,000 ft, but thats in "standard conditions" and not carrying much but gas (sorry, Blackhawk d00ds, thats the way it is), so in Afghanistan, the instant it gets hot or they need to haul something big (ie like a half-dozen people) up there, they wind up flying Chinooks to get the mission done.  But you have to know that the UH-60s still get used for high-DA missions, and what happens when the conditions change from "standard" to "high" or something?   Sucks to discover that your calculated "power available" is really someplace 4,000 ft below the outpost you're resupplying.  While you're on short final.  With an external load. With only one "out".

And flying in the mountains, as Flying Pig has said, is not for the low-time or the faint of heart.   While the mountains I've flown in were considerably smaller than the Hindu Kush, there were times were we needed to make sure we were not exceeding our operating limitations, gross weights, and the abilities of the pilots.  Nothing like conducting a resupply of a mountaintop outpost at about 6,500 ft with just the two aft wheels on the PSP helipad and gusty winds coming up the front side of the mountain.  Makes for an interesting day at both ends of the aircraft.

Flying helicopters today?  I'd still go for it (I did, 3 times, and got turned down by the Army for various reasons, and then I got too old).  Thats a heck of a mission over there.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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RiverAux

Quote from: MIKE on October 28, 2009, 02:39:47 AM
Why do you think you get flight pay?
Now that the AF is giving flight pay to UAV operators and support staff, not sure that this is a strong argument anymore (according to an AF Times article a few weeks ago). 

hatentx

Not to dicount what others say, but you would be surprised what a beating the helicopters in the Army inventory can take.  While in theory on well placed 7.62 round can bring a helicopter down it is a million in one shot.  I have seen aircraft shot up from nose to tail by 20 and 50 cal sized rounds and still make it home.  With having no oil in the Tail rotor gear box, the intermidiate gear box and losing transmision oil and on one engine.  That was just the mechanical side on the elcetical side both one of the main computers were gone the Flight computer shot as well as the sighting systems and the co pilot.  The Poilit took it in with a failing system until another crew could make it on station to provide air support and then limped the aircraft back.  We nicknames the Aircraft Patches O' Hulahan.  Aircraft go down I dont dispute that having been a member of a Down Aircraft Recovery Team for the majority of cetral Iraq I will tell you that they do.  So dont go thinking that some random pop shot will bring that bird to its knees err skids.  I have even seen missles stuck in an aircraft fly back.

The terrian in Afgan is a killer both in the air and the ground. It is a sad thing because of the conditions aircraft cant really preform the function they were designed to do but again the military will take what we have and make it work.  I have seen that two much.  Like what was pointed out you have alot of young low houred pilots fling missions seasoned pilots would dread to even consider.  Because we have to.  I will be the first to call out a pilot for being or doing something idiotic, it take a college degree to break it but atleast a GED to fix it, but my hat is off to any of the combat helicoter pilots their job is truly one I would not hope to have to do.

Hawk200

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 28, 2009, 04:03:36 AMWell part of the problem, or more exactly part of the higher death toll in Afghanistan is the fact that movement on land is limited requiring helicopters to support some 30-40% of outposts.

Even giving the inherent dangers of flight, it's still safer than convoy operations.

In line with what hatentx said, I've seen some doozies when it came to aircraft damage. You'd be surprised what they can fly with as far as compromised systems go. I got a kick out of hearing about a main transmission that was dry when it came back. Of course the helicopter ended up downed once it got to the GSAB, but it would have still gotten people home, probably flying for up to an hour before a pilot would have had to absolutely put it down.

An hour of flight can take you a long way from an engagement area.

Although, hatentx, I have to disagree with the single 7.62 round. As I've heard, it's more like a several billion to one shot. With all the redundancies and backups, it takes quite a bit for a helicopter to come down from simple system failure. Which is about all a 7.62 round would do.

flyerthom

Even on the civilian end, heli ops can be a high risk.

Fatal flights, a perilous rush to profits

QuoteWorking on a medical helicopter is the second most dangerous job in America, behind only commercial fishing. In the past two years alone, medical helicopters have plunged into pitch-black oceans, plummeted to the ground after losing their rotor blades and collided in clear blue desert skies.
Washington Post August 2009

Working as a flight nurse is really a great job but I am under no illusions about its risk. Then again being an ES person in CAP is also not without risk. 
TC

Flying Pig

^No offense, but I think Ive heard about 50 different careers boast about being the 2nd most dangerous career! ;D 

flyerthom

Quote from: Flying Pig on October 31, 2009, 09:34:48 PM
^No offense, but I think Ive heard about 50 different careers boast about being the 2nd most dangerous career! ;D

It's also the Washington Post  >:D

It was good article about the loss of Maryland State Police Trooper 2 though.
TC