Tuck in your Polo

[Hawk200]

Hmmm, rationalization of non-compliance. No wonder our organization isn't taken seriously at times, and is going downhill. How long before the blatant lying, cheating, and stealing starts?

I'm especially surprised at how much gray area seems to be tolerated and even advocated. Maybe that color for our uniform items was the most appropriate.

[Rotorhead]

Hmmm, rationalization of non-compliance. No wonder our organization isn't taken seriously at times, and is going downhill. How long before the blatant lying, cheating, and stealing starts?

I'm especially surprised at how much gray area seems to be tolerated and even advocated. Maybe that color for our uniform items was the most appropriate.

Concur.

May take is, if you didn't want to join a military auxiliary that wears a military-style uniform (and has for decades), you shouldn't have joined CAP.

A flying club, perhaps, or the Boy Scouts, might be more appropriate if that's how you feel. (Although the BSA has uniforms as welll..)

[Cherokeepilot]

Yea' doggies!!!
Hammering........and we wonder why the turnover in membership.  Also, we wonder why the lack of respect for wing officers.  You almost can feel the love..........

Folks......
Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules.  Bullies and thugs don't do well in any work environment especially when having to deal with volunteers.  And, we wonder why other agencies seem to hold us at arms length. 

73s

[Rotorhead]

Yea' doggies!!!
Hammering........and we wonder why the turnover in membership.  Also, we wonder why the lack of respect for wing officers.  You almost can feel the love..........

Folks......
Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules.  Bullies and thugs don't do well in any work environment especially when having to deal with volunteers.  And, we wonder why other agencies seem to hold us at arms length. 

If, in fact, other agencies "hold us at arm's length," it is precisely because some people join CAP and then don't want to follow the regs...something other agencies don't tolerate within their staffs.

People need to accept the rules when they join and plan to adhere to them.

Otherwise, they should not join.

The End.

[SilverEagle2]

^^ Beat me by 11 seconds

And, we wonder why other agencies seem to hold us at arms length.

Because they see the members not following their own rules and stating "We are only volunteers!"

You would be amazed what CAP would be asked to do if they saw CAP abiding by all the rules in place, wearing uniforms correctly, and decreeing, "I am a volunteer that plays by the book!"

[Pumbaa]

I refuse to tuck in my polo!

[LtCol057]

Probably gonna get flamed for some of this, but I can handle it, I'm a big boy now. I wear the big boy pants.

Gunner C, I support you 100% on this matter.  I wish more commanders had the cojones to uphold the regs, rather than just the ones they agree with.  I don't agree with all the regs myself, but as a commander, I still have to uphold them. 

The "volunteer" mentality is what is killing the organization, IMHO.  I was a member of a volunteer EMS organization several years ago. Several members had the same "volunteer" mentality, doing as they wanted, not what was mandated by the state.  After awhile, the county and state stepped in, revoking certifications for noncompliance.  When I started, we had about 60 members.  I left the organization about 5 years later.  Now, they have approx 20 members, and struggling to stay afloat. 

Yes, I'm a volunteer, but that's only because I'm not paid.  I may be a volunteer, but I'm still a professional.  If it every gets to the point that I feel that I can do as I please because I'm a volunteer, I'll leave the organization. 

[NC Hokie]

Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules. 

Here's an idea....

People shouldn't join any organization that has rules and regulations they aren't willing to follow.

[Gunner C]

That's the polo shirt mentality - "I wear it because (choose one)"

• I hate uniforms
• I wear it instead of a uniform
• I don't have to conform to anything because it's not a uniform
• I don't have to do it, you're not the boss of me
• [Redacted] you - I'm playing your game by wearing this stupid shirt, now get out of my way, I wanna go flying

I had a squadron in my group that wore them.  No problem - it was what they wanted as a unit and they all wore it.  But they insisted on wearing it untucked.  I confered with the squadron CC.  He told me that they weren't going to do it.  I removed their flying priviledges, froze promotions, and held up any awards, and they saw their error.  It only took three days.

You revoked flying privileges, promotions and awards of men and women who VOLUNTEER their time, money, and labor to help this country and its people because their commander decided that they should wear their polo shirts tucked out? You think they saw "their error"? I will argue that you punished everyone for the misguidance of one person, their squadron commander (who you should have replaced instead) and then proceeded to punish them all while you should have just punished the commander.

You think this makes you just or a good leader? Perhaps the uniform wear of that unit was wrong. I would admit that their commander's behavior was wrong too. However.., IMHO, your behavior as a person who is supposed to be a leader was much worse. Clearly shows you trying to flex your imaginary CAP muscle and reinforce your ego.

Threatening volunteers and denying their promotions, flying "privileges", and awards isn't going to motivate them to do better. It simply reiterates that you can do that if you want to. That's not a good CAP lesson. It's very indicative of oh so many Seniors in this organization though.

I think next time you should deal with the issue appropriately, between commanders and ONLY commanders as THEY are the ones responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their members and try to weigh in the situation. Does lack of training and loss of membership because of ego wars merit the problem itself? When the issue is of untucked polos, I think it does not.

Definiton of good leader:  One who accomplishes the mission.

Coolective punishment works.....It sucks to be one of the guys who was in regs and got screwed anyway but there is only so much you can do.

If a commander says "I ain't gonna do it!  So there!"  Getting his whole squadron pissed at him is one way to get him back into line.   If they don't want to play the game then take their toys away!

Brining a leader to task for getting the job done is as stupid as someone jepordising the organisation over a stupid shirt!

Honestly, it wasn't collective punishment.  The whole unit was behind it.  I don't believe in punishing the innocent.

Gunner, unit commanders exist to take responsibility for the actions of their subordinates and themselves. It's one of the reasons why we have the chain of command and span of control. In a healthy leadership structure, it is the commander who is responsible for compliance with regulations. It is also the commander who is held responsible. If the commander isn't doing the job right, he/she is to be replaced with someone who will.  That is the said unit commander should have been:
1. Counseled (properly, with an LOR if need be).
2. Relieved (and replaced with someone who understands the regs and will insist on them being followed).

With the commander as stupid as this one was, there must have been many other issues of disrespect for authority and the regulations. I don't believe that this was an isolated incident. I also don't believe that ALL members suddenly decided that they'll break the regs. I believe CAP isn't a democracy. There is no voting for this stuff.

Fire the CC. Replace him/her with one who is capable. PROBLEM SOLVED

Start "Showing them who's boss" and you'll lose the unit, the group and the mission (actually, sounds like that's exactly what happened in the end).

Let me fill in some of the holes in the narrative:

This was (probably still is) a unit that had some of the best aircrews in the wing.  They had high operational standards and were progressing well.  The commander had just taken command.  He'd been in the unit for several years.  He was a good man who ran his own business and had good leadership skills.

I made a command visit one night.  It was not too long after 9-11 and it wasn't certain what was going to happen to us as a force, whether we were going to be part of a fight in the homeland, etc.

The unit was pretty tight and had a solid group identity.  I was also a relatively new group commander - I'd been in command for about 6 months after being moved up from squadron command.

At the end of the meeting, I gave a short brief.  They were training, getting paperwork done, and generally taking care of business.  My intent was to take them to the next level, using their many talents and skills, and making them the "gold standard" in the wing for ES.  One of the things I was looking for was to raise our profile with the AF.  Uniforms were part of that.  I took the commander aside and asked him to get his folks to tuck in their shirts.  He told me that he'd already done that and they'd balked, saying it wasn't important.  A small "unit cohesion thing." 

We both thought that this was the members pushing to find the limits of the chain of command.  We felt that if we didn't exert the authority of command, we'd never move the squadron forward and our goals would never taken seriously.

That's when I told him I'd call him the next day with my plan.  When he heard it, he agreed.  Yes, it was a bit of theater, but there was a message "I'm going to get you guys more missions and training than they ever imagined, but if you're going to get it, you're going to play by the rules."  I raised the bar and they met it.  They recruited more members, kept them, and had more fun than any other unit in the wing.

BTW, the group was inactivated when the wing took the group structure from 8 groups to 3.  It was a matter of geography.

Bottom line:  if you lower the standards, your unit will meet them every time.  The only way to move forward is to raise standards.  They won't always meet them, but they'll be proud of the progress they've made and proud of being part of something special.

[afgeo4]

I have disagreed with Gunner C a few times over issues, but on this issues I agree with him 100%.

In my "real life" job, besides being a chaplain I also am the director of volunteers for my hospital.  I had a volunteer that I had to counsel continually about her behavior.  She thought that because she was a volunteer she could pretty much do whatever she wanted.  I finally had to ask her for her badge and told her not to comeback.  She tried to complain to my supervisor, but I had already told her why I was doing this and what I had done to try to prevent it.  She supported my decision completely.

I guess what I am saying is that being a volunteer that doesn't follow rules and regulations is inviting consequences.

Ah! You're exactly showing my point. The right thing to do isn't to just let it go. I'm all for professionalism and following regs. The exactly right thing to do is to counsel and if it doesn't work, fire them.

This isn't the real military and it isn't combat. Same rules DO NOT apply. Why? Well, for starters, these people aren't bound to service by law. Second, these people don't get proper training. Third, they aren't paid for their work. Finally, and I think most importantly, it would all serve us well to remember that WE don't pay them. We have no right to dictate. We have the right to ask volunteers to do certain things and we have the right to sever ties with them if they don't do those things, but we have no right to demand. Sure, we can all pretend we can "order" people to do things, but we can't. There's no enforcement behind it and that's for a reason. A really good reason.

[afgeo4]

Folks........
We need to remember that CAP is not a uniform service.  The socalled uniforms are merely costumes which are relavent to the extent that Amn Red Cross workers wear vests at their events and disaster events.

There is nothing about this to get all hot and bothered. 
73s

They are uniforms, not costumes, at least as far as the USAF is concerned.

I'll defer to the USAF, not you, on this issue.

Your post sounds like you're part of the "I'm just a volunteer, I don't need to follow rules" brigade.

Please defer to NHQ/CAP for wear of corporate uniforms.

No one here is arguing about how the BDU uniform should be worn. In fact, no one is arguing about how the polo should be worn. That's in the regs, so no argument. The question is, how do we resolve non-compliancy where it exists?

[afgeo4]

Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules. 

Here's an idea....

People shouldn't join any organization that has rules and regulations they aren't willing to follow.

Rules change. CAP rules change almost weekly.

[Capt Rivera]

Bottom line:  if you lower the standards, your unit will meet them every time.  The only way to move forward is to raise standards.  They won't always meet them, but they'll be proud of the progress they've made and proud of being part of something special.

:clap:

[Capt Rivera]

Rules change. CAP rules change almost weekly.

Whats your point? The rules in place are the ones that should be followed... until amended by whatever means...

[PHall]

Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules. 

Here's an idea....

People shouldn't join any organization that has rules and regulations they aren't willing to follow.

Rules change. CAP rules change almost weekly.

Basic stuff like tucking your shirt in hasn't changed in a long time, and they probably won't.

[Rotorhead]

Rules can only be enforced to the limit of people's willingness to accept those rules. 

Here's an idea....

People shouldn't join any organization that has rules and regulations they aren't willing to follow.

Rules change. CAP rules change almost weekly.

Hyperbole aside, we're not talking about an inability to keep up with reg changes, we're talking about people who just don't want to follow them.

[Johnny Yuma]

I'm almost always tucked in, except for those days when I'm carrying the Sig 228 or my 1911A1 in an Inside the waistband holster with and extra magazine for reloads...

Just Kidding (or am I) :angel: :angel: :angel:

[wuzafuzz]

I'm almost always tucked in, except for those days when I'm carrying the Sig 228 or my 1911A1 in an Inside the waistband holster with and extra magazine for reloads...

Just Kidding (or am I) :angel: :angel: :angel:

ROFLMAO!!   

I agree completely a uniform should be worn properly or not worn at all.  That's not a military "wannabe" mentality, thats just the price of admission for a professional appearance.  Police officers, firefighters, paramedics, and even security guards can do it.  Even CERT organizations can do it. Why can't we? 

[Major Carrales]

I agree completely a uniform should be worn properly or not worn at all.  That's not a military "wannabe" mentality, thats just the price of admission for a professional appearance.  Police officers, firefighters, paramedics, and even security guards can do it.  Even CERT organizations can do it. Why can't we?

Outstanding post...this is the crux of the true matter, a professional appearance.  An un-tucked shirt does not give a professional appearance...it smacks of "casual wear" one might wear to the mall or a bar-be-cue, no offense against that look, but when you are on a CAP mission, or any endeavor that is "official," tucked in signifies the idea that you have "a purpose" and are "on duty" that is serious and, as said before, is official.

[a2capt]

Ahem...

At least.. this guy has it tucked in. ;-)

http://peopleofwalmart.com/?p=2191