Military badges on CAP uniforms?

[Prospector]

Hi Folks,

Another confusing question regarding the CAP uniforms. In CAPM 39-1 (latest downloaded from CAP National website) there appears to be conflicting messages regarding the wear of military badges / wings on CAP uniforms. At the end of paragraph 6-7 it states that, "US Military badges are not authorized for wear on any of the CAP distinctive uniforms."

However, table 6-5 clearly shows that many military badges / wings are authorized for wear on "CAP Service Uniforms and BDUs."

So here is my question: When wearing the new double-breasted CAP corporate uniform jacket, is it allowable to wear U.S. Army permanently awarded (with orders) aeronautical wings or not? If not, is it allowable on the CAP Air Force Style uniform jacket?

When answering, if you could point me to the regs / change letter etc. that you are referencing for your response that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[Eclipse]

"CAP Service uniforms and BDU's" are not Corporate Distinctive uniforms.

A number of military badges and ribbons are approved for wear on the USAF-Style uniforms (i.e. Service Dress, Mess Dress, blue short-sleeve), and the Camo BDU's.

Military badges and insignia are not currently approved on any of the corporate combos - Aviator whites, (new) corporate service uniform, or blue BDUs.

Its clear in 39-1.

[Prospector]

Its clear in 39-1.

If it was clear in 39-1 I wouldn't have asked the question.

So, are you saying that if you wear regular BDUs (not blue) you CAN wear your military wings, but you can't on the Corporate issued dress uniforms? Aren't all the CAP uniforms "CAP distinctive" and not regulation U.S. Air Force - including the AF "Style" one?

What twit authorized this. If the AF allows CAP to wear the badges on the CAP AF "style" uniforms - then why would CAP say we couldn't do the same on their uniforms?

When is the new 39-1 coming out and who do we direct change requests to?

Thanks!

[Eclipse]

Its clear in 39-1.

If it was clear in 39-1 I wouldn't have asked the question.

So, are you saying that if you wear regular BDUs (not blue) you CAN wear your military wings, but you can't on the Corporate issued dress uniforms?

When is the new 39-1 coming out and who do we direct change requests to?

Thanks!

That is correct, with the caveat that any military badge worn on a CAP uniform must be approved for wear on the similar USAF uniform.  As an example, the CIB is approved for wear for both the USAF and CAP, the CAB is not.

To my knowledge there is no pending revision to 39-1 in the works, though there have been several working committees in the last couple of years.

Suggestions for changes should be sent through your chain of command, unless a document is posted for comment in which case you can send the comments direct.

This particular issue has been a point of contention and discussion for a long time in CAP, with no apparent interest in the change at the national level.

[Prospector]

Sorry, I updated my earlier response at the same time you were posting. Modified some text.

[Eclipse]

6-7. US Military Badges. CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear
on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for
service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. The military
badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5. Before wearing any
badge not listed in this table, contact National Headquarters/LMM for clarification. US Military badges
are not authorized for wear on any of the CAP distinctive uniforms.

The CSU is considered a distinctive uniform.

[Prospector]

The CSU is considered a distinctive uniform.

I understand - I guess my confusion is the definition of what is a "CAP Distinctive" uniform. The CAP AF style and Corporate uniforms are BOTH CAP Distinctive.

What I mean is that both of these styles of uniforms are distinctive to CAP alone. Neither the AF or anyone else wears these particular uniforms. So why differentiate between the two and what is worn on them??

Personally, I think there would be a lot less hassle and confusion and really help the general membership solidify their identity if CAP only had one set of uniforms.

End of rant...

[Eclipse]

In our context there is a difference, but to the general public there is very little difference between the
way we wear blues and BDU's and the way the USAF does.

Distinctive in this case means the corporate combinations which do not require adherence to weight standards or grooming rules (with the exception of the CSU).

[heliodoc]

Prospector....

IT would be nice to have one set of uniforms..

That's  TOO practical for this organization

[Rotorhead]

Prospector....

IT would be nice to have one set of uniforms..

That's  TOO practical for this organization

I suspect many people would not want that in reality.

USAF style= no fat and fuzzy. That eliminates blues and BDUs, unless you're going to start mandating weight & grooming standards for all senior members.

Practicality in ES field work eliminates white & greys, the CSU (or TPU), the flight suit (can't really wear it on ground searches), and obviously, the mess dress..as well as the holy grail of senior members, the polo shirt combo.

That would leave only the Blue BDUs (or, possibly, the Blue jumpsuit) as a uniform that every member could wear on any occasion.

Now, does having "just one uniform" sound like something you'd like?

[Eclipse]

The ACA, CGAux, and Sea Cadets, for starters, have all somehow managed to look like their parent service, regardless of weight, etc., without too much issue.

I don't understand why we haven't been able to do the same.

[Rotorhead]

The ACA, CGAux, and Sea Cadets, for starters, have all somehow managed to look like their parent service, regardless of weight, etc., without too much issue.

I don't understand why we haven't been able to do the same.

Because the USAF doesn't want it that way.

[PHall]

What twit authorized this. If the AF allows CAP to wear the badges on the CAP AF "style" uniforms - then why would CAP say we couldn't do the same on their uniforms?

The "twit" you are referring to is the Commander, CAP-USAF who get's their marching orders from the Director of the Holm Center and the Commander of Air Education and Training Command.

The Air Force has stated in multiple places (AFI 10-2701 being one) that they retain exclusive control over the AF style uniform. Period.

[Spike]

Actually to follow regulation, there are no new corporate uniforms.  The Change letters were rescinded because the Regs were not updated in the time frame mandated.  In fact, everyone wearing them is in violation of NHQ Policy.

But, HQ makes the rules, and can decide to break them if they want I suppose!

[Spike]

What twit authorized this. If the AF allows CAP to wear the badges on the CAP AF "style" uniforms - then why would CAP say we couldn't do the same on their uniforms?

The "twit" you are referring to is the Commander, CAP-USAF who get's their marching orders from the Director of the Holm Center and the Commander of Air Education and Training Command.

The Air Force has stated in multiple places (AFI 10-2701 being one) that they retain exclusive control over the AF style uniform. Period.

He was referring to the Person who has control over the corporate uniforms.  Not CAP-USAF!

[Prospector]

He was referring to the Person who has control over the corporate uniforms.  Not CAP-USAF!

Precisely. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone in particular, just to the idea that we have two separate uniform sets for one organization. I think CAP so far is the only organization that I have been involved with that has 2 separate but equal uniforms. No one has answered this "elephant in the room" question yet - that of why there are two different uniforms for the organization? Is there some operational need for us to have 2 sets?

I could see that the choices of uniforms before the new Corporate dress was implemented was tilted strongly towards the AF style quite frankly because the only other alternative - the Blazer Combo was it. But now that we have a Corporate uniform that is distinctive and very professional looking, why not get rid of the AF style altogether.

That would satisfy all of us quite well I think for Dress Uniform options.

As far as the Air Force having control over CAP now, I thought that the new Board of Governors mandated by Congress was the supreme governing body for CAP and what they say goes. Am I wrong?

[RiverAux]

The ACA, CGAux, and Sea Cadets, for starters, have all somehow managed to look like their parent service, regardless of weight, etc., without too much issue.

Correction : The ACA does not have a "parent service".  To my knowledge they haven't yet developed any official relationship with the Army that would put them in the same sort of relationship CAP or CG Aux has with their parent services. 

Yes, they have had various official contacts and so far the Army hasn't gone after them for what they've been doing (in my opinion they should have), but they're not an auxiliary (or anything else) of the Army. 

Maybe something has changed recently.

[Eclipse]

As far as the Air Force having control over CAP now, I thought that the new Board of Governors mandated by Congress was the supreme governing body for CAP and what they say goes. Am I wrong?

Yes.

As to the uniform issue, I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't believe you're the first person to ever raise the question.  How and why we got to where we are today is a product of a couple of decades of action by both CAP and the USAF.

As I and others have pointed out on a number of occasions, we don't really have that many more combos than other military services, and beyond these boards, no one really pays the issue a lot of attention.

Its not a slight against us, an indication of our relationship with the USAF, or a part of the conspiracy to separate us from brother blue.

I think a lot of us would be fine dumping the whites and blazer for the CSU and moving on with our lives, but the the small minority of members with beard gets their skivvies bunched and we're right back where we started.

[lordmonar]

Actually to follow regulation, there are no new corporate uniforms.  The Change letters were rescinded because the Regs were not updated in the time frame mandated.  In fact, everyone wearing them is in violation of NHQ Policy.

But, HQ makes the rules, and can decide to break them if they want I suppose!

Now you are begining to see how it works.

[Prospector]

Ok, bringing us (and me  )back to the original line of questioning -

It seems to me that 39-1 needs a new revision that covers in depth the new corporate dress uniform. Since the new dress uniform is in fact a dress uniform and not an informal blazer / slacks combo like before, it seems like common sense would dictate that whatever the AF allows worn on the CAP AF "style" dress uniform should at least be allowed on the new corporate dress uniform.

If someone here is on one of the national uniform committees, please take this into consideration as an official suggestion.

Thanks!