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24 hour pack?

Started by EverClueless, August 20, 2009, 03:28:19 PM

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EverClueless

Hello, I am a relatively new cadet that is about to start "training" for Emergency Services to become Ground Team.  I was given a list of things i need for the 24 hour and 72 hour gear (most of the 24 hour pack lists are more or less the same) , but the 24 hour list is very vague and i dont know what would be necessary for someone just starting out.

I have no idea what i should be packing the 24 hour gear in.  My list says "rugged day pack or military web gear" etc. etc.  But what would classify as a "rugged day pack"?  Would a vest be better? if so, what kind/color?  I actually dont even think i entirely know what web gear is...

Just want some help on what i should get and where to get it.

Eclipse

The list is not vague - its tells you specifically what you need to have - the variations of what is available
are for you to choose within your level of interest, tempo, and budget.

Anything from a school backpack to advanced tactical gear is acceptable.  I would suggest the school backpack until you decide whether you even like ground SAR.

You should not have to worry about 72-hour gear until you are well into GT2 or 1.  For the most part the 72 is just replenishment for the 24, along with base gear for camping, etc.

"That Others May Zoom"

addo1

Quote from: Eclipse on August 20, 2009, 03:35:22 PM
The list is not vague - its tells you specifically what you need to have - the variations of what is available

Well, it depends. Do you have a link to the list that you were given EverClueless? I HAVE seen a few vague, incomplete lists out there that do not come from the ground team handbook. If you do have the official list, then yes, it should be rather specific. Most anything you need as a trainee can be found at your local Wal-Mart and Army Navy.
Addison Jaynes, SFO, CAP
Coordinator, Texas Wing International Air Cadet Exchange


National Cadet Advisory Council 2010

DC

Are you using the list out of the green Ground Team and Urban DF Task Guide? If not, get it. I believe the items a trainee needs are specifically marked with a T or something like that.

Once you get into your training and get a little bit of experience you will probably start to modify the gear you carry to suit your needs. Until then, I would go with the simplest option available.

addo1

Quote from: DC on August 20, 2009, 03:57:35 PM
Are you using the list out of the green Ground Team and Urban DF Task Guide? If not, get it. I believe the items a trainee needs are specifically marked with a T or something like that.

Once you get into your training and get a little bit of experience you will probably start to modify the gear you carry to suit your needs. Until then, I would go with the simplest option available.


Affirmative. If you are using the correct list, everything that a trainee nees will have a "T" for its marking. If you can, I would suggest getting everything at once, but the trainee items are what you need as the minimum to start out.
Addison Jaynes, SFO, CAP
Coordinator, Texas Wing International Air Cadet Exchange


National Cadet Advisory Council 2010

EverClueless

thank you.  is the ground team handbook posted anywhere on the CAP website?

DC


davedove

Note that the Ground Team Handbook is one of the required items you must carry (although not marked as required for trainees) so you will either have to buy a copy or print one out.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

coolkites

Also if you are curious about more tactical options once you become more advanced then chech out the post "Lets talk about Molle" its an intresting disscusion

Polecat

Quote from: coolkites on August 20, 2009, 06:50:19 PM
Also if you are curious about more tactical options once you become more advanced then chech out the post "Lets talk about Molle" its an intresting disscusion

Huh? We can all see that lets talk about MOLLE thread, so you don't have to go advertising your own thread.  And what does becoming more advanced have to do with tactical?  What do you need more tactical options for?  Yes, I am all for whatever works works but if you become more advanced you need a more tactical option?  It seems the newer people to ES are more concerned with being "Tacti-cool" and once you become more advanced you relize that looking cool really doesn't matter.  I am all for "tactical" gear if it works but don't go and buy it just because all the cool kids are doing.  Most of the GTM3T who show up to SAREXs with full ACU gear and start acting all cool because of it tick me off.  Those are usually the people who try to teach me or other evaluators.  I am not saying just because you have that type of gear, you do that I am just saying learn what works for you and don't just buy gear because it's high speed, low drag.

/rant

coolkites

the only reason i mentioned my other thread it because of the reason that many people buy what looks cool and not whats practical the Lets talk about Molle post has information and opinions to help a cadet make a smart informed decision if you dont want smart informed decisions then that you problem but please dont try to discourage new cadets they are new and want some friendly advice. if you want to rant about me pm me not infront of other people to make your point.

Rotorhead

Quote from: coolkites on August 20, 2009, 08:20:39 PM
the Lets talk about Molle post has information and opinions to help a cadet make a smart informed decision

No, it doesn't.

But nice try.
Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

Eclipse

There are probably 20 other threads here regarding tactical vests which is why you probably didn't get much response and why I suggested you use the search function.

September morn...

"That Others May Zoom"

coolkites

true about there being other post but Im trying to bring new information regarding Molle such as the new orange MOLLE or other stuff along those lines plus newer people dont always use the search function anyways that was just my 2 cents.

Polecat

What new orange MOLLE?

Rotorhead

Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

Polecat


Eclipse

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 20, 2009, 08:59:25 PM
Quote from: Polecat on August 20, 2009, 08:51:33 PM
What new orange MOLLE?

It is orange.

...and has the ability to carry Lightweight Equipment Loads Using Modular containers.

Its also a figment of imagination...

"That Others May Zoom"

coolkites

#18
I have in fact seen orange MOLLE before its not common or very polular but it does exist check your local surplus store if you don't see it on the shelves ask them about it

EDIT: the Orange MOLLE I saw was a container for holding rifle cartridges and a couple other random pouches most likely for hunting not SAR

DC

Quote from: coolkites on August 20, 2009, 08:20:39 PM
the only reason i mentioned my other thread it because of the reason that many people buy what looks cool and not whats practical the Lets talk about Molle post has information and opinions to help a cadet make a smart informed decision if you dont want smart informed decisions then that you problem but please dont try to discourage new cadets they are new and want some friendly advice. if you want to rant about me pm me not infront of other people to make your point.
I'm sorry, I can't take it anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_on_sentence

Polecat

Quote from: coolkites on August 20, 2009, 09:13:19 PM
I have in fact seen orange MOLLE before its not common or very polular but it does exist check your local surplus store if you don't see it on the shelves ask them about it

Link?

coolkites

Hey sorry about the spelling and grammar but thats not what is really important here. The fact is that if you can get the informaion out of a post why let the grammar bother you?

coolkites

Sorry I can't give you a link it was at my local surplus store. They do not have a website >:( (they should)

Eclipse

Quote from: coolkites on August 20, 2009, 09:26:34 PM
Hey sorry about the spelling and grammar but thats not what is really important here. The fact is that if you can get the informaion out of a post why let the grammar bother you?

Because spelling and grammar count, all the time, 24x7.

As to the orange molle, it doesn't exist - what you saw was, as you say, likely something for hunting which may have resembled or even fit on a molle vest, but wasn't part of a system.

Orange tactical gear is the holy grail of SAR equipment and as of today no one is producing it commercially.


"That Others May Zoom"

coolkites

haha well It probaly was for hunting but it was 100% desighned to fit on a vest and the back attachment points looked no diffrent than those on an OD Condor map pouch it was desighned for a MOLLE system but maybe not by one of the main millitary designers.

DC

Quote from: coolkites on August 20, 2009, 09:26:34 PM
Hey sorry about the spelling and grammar but thats not what is really important here. The fact is that if you can get the informaion out of a post why let the grammar bother you?
Because it's far easier to get information out of a post when it doesn't have to be read and reread five times to understand what the poster was trying to say.

It's also just good internet manners.

coolkites

ok great I think that was already covered, thanks for replacing the dressing on the wound

Anyways has anyone found out if they make MOLLE gear with reflective tape on it? odd question but seems great for roadwork and other stuff

Polecat

This is a situation where it is apropriate to post a link to your own thread. Clicky
Or you can just make your own with reflective fabric and some sewing, or find some sticky stuff.

Eclipse

Quote from: coolkites on August 20, 2009, 10:51:20 PM...has anyone found out if they make MOLLE gear with reflective tape on it? odd question but seems great for roadwork and other stuff

No, they don't - shouldn't this be in the Molle superthread?

"That Others May Zoom"

coolkites

In response to polecat I was thinking something along those same lines.

Polecat

By the way, my reply was the first thing to come up in the search results if you search "Reflective MOLLE".
And when you want to tell people who you are responding to, the quote button works very well for that.

coolkites

Quote from: Polecat on August 20, 2009, 11:21:51 PM
By the way, my reply was the first thing to come up in the search results if you search "Reflective MOLLE".
And when you want to tell people who you are responding to, the quote button works very well for that.

Thanks Im new so im still learning the tricks of the trade (but see I used the quote button!)

EverClueless

Quote from: DC on August 20, 2009, 09:14:59 PM
Quote from: coolkites on August 20, 2009, 08:20:39 PM
the only reason i mentioned my other thread it because of the reason that many people buy what looks cool and not whats practical the Lets talk about Molle post has information and opinions to help a cadet make a smart informed decision if you dont want smart informed decisions then that you problem but please dont try to discourage new cadets they are new and want some friendly advice. if you want to rant about me pm me not infront of other people to make your point.
I'm sorry, I can't take it anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_on_sentence


Probably a little late, but, that was funny.

coolkites

Hey I have been on summer break so give me a uh...............break lol

EverClueless

So would you (the general forum) recommend a vest or a pack?

coolkites

It really depends since you are new try using some random backpack that you have lying around the house. As long as it's comfortable and holds all your gear it should work. If you decide that you like SAR then you will be in a better position to decide what kind of gear you really want.

DC

Quote from: EverClueless on August 21, 2009, 04:51:21 PM
So would you (the general forum) recommend a vest or a pack?
Specifically, no, since there are sooooooo many options out there. For 24hr gear a light SAR-med type vest works well, or, my preference, a small hydration pack (ex: Blackhawk! STRIKE Tsunami). That optional also provides MOLLE attachement points so you can add some pouches to it as needed. If you are getting in and out of vehicles a lot it is small and relatively easy to take off and put back on, and if you are out in the woods all day they're light and comfortable to carry. You also don't have the heat issues that frequently accompany wearing a vest.

But, it really all depends on your personal needs, wants, and the size of your wallet.

EverClueless

The end result answer to most of what ive researched ends up being "Use whatever works for you".

The problem being i have no idea what works for me, since i havent used them.  My reason for this thread was to find out what would work the best for me, because i REALLY dont want to spend tons of money on something only to find that i dont like it. 

I know no one can tell me what works for me, but i was more looking for general suggestions on what type of pack/vest (MOLLE, plain old Day pack, ALICE, etc.) would be good. personally i think the vests look much better and seem like it would be much less on your back/shoulders than a pack.

Also: Regarding MOLLE, the whole personal customization seems like a good idea, but since you have to buy all the individual packs and pouches and attachments, wouldnt it get pretty expensive?

ive seen single pouches for 40$. i dont want to buy a MOLLE vest only to learn im going to have to pay double what i payed for it to get a decent amount of pouches.

Or is the MOLLE worth it?


PS: I already know that I like SAR/GTM, I've done lots of similar things and loved them. 

Plus, since the original posting of this thread i have already been to a meeting/training/whatever-youd-call-it for  Ground Team and Soon-to-be Ground Team members

N Harmon

Quote from: EverClueless on August 24, 2009, 04:44:09 PM
The problem being i have no idea what works for me, since i havent used them.  My reason for this thread was to find out what would work the best for me, because i REALLY dont want to spend tons of money on something only to find that i dont like it.

Instead of concentrating on what will work, perhaps you should think about what will NOT work. Web gear does not work for me. But backpacks and vests do. You will find that there will be a LOT more gear that does work for you than there is that does not.

Backpacks typically will work for everybody. I would say go down to your nearest outfitter and try a few on and buy what is in your price range.

Forget about the MOLLE and tactical ammo pouches etc. Buy a good compass instead. Or a good pair of boots. It never ceases to amaze me when cadets have super nice Blackhawk tactical vests but their $15 Jungle boot specials make their feet hurt.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

heliodoc

"Tacti-cool" DOES NOT equal tactical

Some folks will learn about those $15 dollar boots.  Some will always want to be like Combat Air Patrol >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

Eclipse

Quote from: EverClueless on August 24, 2009, 04:44:09 PM
The problem being i have no idea what works for me, since i havent used them.  My reason for this thread was to find out what would work the best for me, because i REALLY dont want to spend tons of money on something only to find that i dont like it. 

Bingo - so start cheap, bare minimum, and as you spend time in the field (training or otherwise), you'll see what works well and what doesn't.

"That Others May Zoom"

coolkites

Quote from: N Harmon on August 24, 2009, 05:37:52 PM
Quote from: EverClueless on August 24, 2009, 04:44:09 PM
The problem being i have no idea what works for me, since i havent used them.  My reason for this thread was to find out what would work the best for me, because i REALLY dont want to spend tons of money on something only to find that i dont like it.

Instead of concentrating on what will work, perhaps you should think about what will NOT work. Web gear does not work for me. But backpacks and vests do. You will find that there will be a LOT more gear that does work for you than there is that does not.

Backpacks typically will work for everybody. I would say go down to your nearest outfitter and try a few on and buy what is in your price range.

Forget about the MOLLE and tactical ammo pouches etc. Buy a good compass instead. Or a good pair of boots. It never ceases to amaze me when cadets have super nice Blackhawk tactical vests but their $15 Jungle boot specials make their feet hurt.


You do not need to throw out the idea of MOLLE just make sure to try it on with some weight and walk around the store to see If you like it. chances are you have already carried some weight using a standard backpack so you can compare the 2 experiences. As far as the cost of MOLLE goes yes it can get expensive but remember that you can use the vest for other activities, I use mine for SAR as well as using it when I go play paintball so it has 2 uses for me. Try this add the cost of the vest and the cost of all the pouches you think you would want and use at once then check the total base your decision of of that. good luck.

davedove

When you're putting your gear together, also remember that we don't need immediate access to much of our equipment.  We are not operating in a "bullets flying" environment.

It's nice to have a few items handy, like say your compass, but for most items you'll have plenty of time to take off your pack and dig it out.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

ricks

I say just tie all of your equipment to your belt with 550 cord and walk around like a hula dancer.

Or just carry essential equipment in a camel back.

coolkites

Quote from: ricks on August 24, 2009, 07:24:45 PM
I say just tie all of your equipment to your belt with 550 cord and walk around like a hula dancer.

Or just carry essential equipment in a camel back.

please post a picture of yourself in BDUs with a compass,water,flashlight,batteries,food,knife,survival kite ect..... tied to your belt in hula fashion

ricks

Sorry, I turned in my Ranger Go-Fast stuff long ago.  8)

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

coolkites

Quote from: Eclipse on August 24, 2009, 07:33:46 PM


ya that way you could have avoided having to wear an orange vest!

Turbo

"Hello Kitty Pink" is not exceptionally visible when you're out in the woods, that's why we wear orange

jimmydeanno

^Which is less visible than the yellow/green that highway workers are using.  Which is also less visible than the ones with reflective webbing...
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Thom

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 27, 2009, 08:00:29 PM
^Which is less visible than the yellow/green that highway workers are using.  Which is also less visible than the ones with reflective webbing...

Actually, as others on here have noted in other threads, the Hi-Viz Lime Yellow and the Hi-Viz Orange each have their place.  The Lime Yellow works well in industrial areas, but the Orange actually tends to work better against some natural backgrounds.  This (and the installed base out there...) is why the new Highway rules that require wearing a ANSI 207 Type II (or III) vest allow either Lime Yellow OR Orange vests.

If you want to see really hideous, there are a couple of combo vests available that are Lime Yellow on top, and Orange on the bottom, or vice versa.  Hideous!  But, Visible from two miles away in any conditions!

Thom Hamilton

Hawk200

Quote from: Thom on August 27, 2009, 11:12:56 PMIf you want to see really hideous, there are a couple of combo vests available that are Lime Yellow on top, and Orange on the bottom, or vice versa.  Hideous!  But, Visible from two miles away in any conditions!

You wouldn't happen to have some links available, would you? I've been looking for a hi vis vest to wear when I ride at night. Something with a color combo that's completely abnormal and unnatural would fill the bill nicely.

Thom

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 28, 2009, 02:13:06 AM
Quote from: Thom on August 27, 2009, 11:12:56 PMIf you want to see really hideous, there are a couple of combo vests available that are Lime Yellow on top, and Orange on the bottom, or vice versa.  Hideous!  But, Visible from two miles away in any conditions!

You wouldn't happen to have some links available, would you? I've been looking for a hi vis vest to wear when I ride at night. Something with a color combo that's completely abnormal and unnatural would fill the bill nicely.

Sure, here's some glaring examples:

This is what I keep in my car, it's Orange with Lime Stripes and Silver Scotchlite reflective:
http://www.safetycompany.com/ok1-ansi-class-dot-surveyor-vest/p_1005325.html


Here's the opposite, with a Lime base and Orange stripes plus Silver Scotchlite reflective:
http://www.safetycompany.com/ok1-ansi-class-hook-and-loop-vest/p_1005496.html

And, here's a two-tone vest, Lime over Orange:
http://thevestguy.com/product.asp?id=10285


And, finally, a two-tone Alternating Lime and Orange Jacket:
http://www.embroidered-uniforms-corporate-apparel.com/ansi-class-bomber-jacket-ok4202-p-4818.html


Honestly, if you aren't conspicuous enough in those, you have problems.

Thom Hamilton

Hawk200

Quote from: Thom on August 28, 2009, 03:43:48 AMSure, here's some glaring examples:......


Honestly, if you aren't conspicuous enough in those, you have problems.

Probably go with option two. Three is a little bizarre.

Just looking for something that will be noticed by even the drunks on the road.

EverClueless

I think any of those orange vests are better than the one i got.  I was getting other stuff from the gear list and figured i might as well get a vest while i was there.  They only had 1 kind of orange vest, but they said it was 1-size-fits-all and it met the requirements.   so i bought it without trying it on, and when i put it on later it looked ridiculous. its way too big. the only way its one-size-fits-all is if all are only one size.

but it fits the requirements, so thats enough complaining.

But back on topic a little more, what is the usefull-ness of MOLLE/ALICE backpacks?

Does a backpack really need MORE pouches? if you need more space wouldnt it be cheaper to just buy a bigger pack?  i understand putting pouches on a vest; once you put pouches on a vest it is capable of carrying all your equipment.  but a pack is already capable of carrying equipment.

maybe i have no idea what im talking about and adding pouches to what is essentially a large pouch for your back does make sense.  but i have no experience with MOLLE/ALICE packs so i probably shouldnt even be talking

jimmydeanno

Pouches make your equipment more easily accessible. 

If you just bought a larger pack and shoved everything for your 24 hour gear into it, you'd have to take everything out to get the item on the bottom, then repack, then unpack for the next thing, etc.

Your typical LL Bean School pack has one main compartment and a small zipper pouch on it.  It isn't adaptable to the needs you may face on any given day, etc.

Another advantage to the molle setup is that if you don't need the items in a particular pouch that day, you just take it off and put what you need on.  Then, you don't have to repack anything.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Thom

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 28, 2009, 04:00:50 PM
Pouches make your equipment more easily accessible. 

Properly used, pouches make your equipment more readily accessible.  To take this to the extreme, consider two options for a Flight Bag (slightly off point, but I have a great example I want to use...):

You can get a big old bag and pour all your stuff in it, like an Alice pack, or you can get a hyper-organized bag like the BrightLine flight bag, where there is a pouch sized and designed for each individual item you intend to carry.

Like this cutaway view:


Now, imagine that you change the fuel tester you carry to a squat round GATS jar, instead of the long skinny kind.  With that bag, you are stuck.  MOLLE pouches let you change the pouches as you either acquire different gear, OR decide to change the way you carry the gear you have.

Decide you want your compass pouch on the left side of your SAR pack instead of the right?  Just move it.

MOLLE is all about CUSTOMIZATION.  Whether the extra price and slight weight/size penalties are worth it to you, is a personal decision.  Just keep in mind that while you are finding the 'best' setup for your circumstances, you can burn through a LOT of money buying different size/shape/color MOLLE pouches.

FYI:  If you choose NOT to get a MOLLE pack, there are still some options that can make life easier with the 'one big bag' type of backpacks.  Number one is to get a 'Rear Loading' pack instead of a 'Top Loading' pack.  Top Loading is what most of us grew up with, and, as jimmydeano mentioned, you have to dig through all your gear to get at the stuff on the bottom.  A 'Rear Loading' pack has the opening on the back instead of (or in addition to) the Top.  The whole back panel zips down, so if the pack is laid strap-side down it is more like getting stuff out of a suitcase.  Everything is side-by-side so rather than a 2 foot deep pile of stuff, you get a 2 foot wide display of your stuff.  Check them out.

Thom Hamilton