Should we reclassify "senior members without grade" as "Airman"?

[RiverAux]

CAP has the odd situation of having a paramilitary grade structure in which new members technically have no grade at all.  They are usually referred to as "senior members without grade" in various CAP publications, but this is not actually a grade itself (ref CAPR 35-5 1-3 and 1-4).  For the vast majority of new senior members, they are in this status for a period of months before getting an officer or NCO grade.

Interestingly, the CAP uniform manual does use the term "Airman" to apply to uniformed CAP members who are not Officers or cadets (CAPM 39-1 1-3b).  Obviously, the CAP uniform manual isn't the controlling authority on the issue of our grade system, but does provides some guidance that SMWOG are to be treated as Airman. 

I propose that current senior members without grade be reclassifed and given the grade of Airman and that all new CAP members start with the grade of Airman.  I chose Airman (equivalent to an E-2 in the AF system) rather than Airman Basic (E-1) for the sake of simplicity. 

I will say up front that I recognize that this is a fairly minor issue, so no need to harp on that in any comments. 

I cannot see any negatives to this proposal and in my opinion the fact that there would be some small positives to it makes it worth doing when we have a chance.   While a minor issue, it does impact a significant portion of our members (maybe 20% of adults are SWMOG at any one time based on my Wing's numbers).

Problem 1 
The most obvious issue with this is that it starts the new member out in a weird limbo where they're in an organization where everybody has a grade except them.  It leads to the question we have discussed before about whether they are CAP officers for purposes of saluting, etc.  see http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6379.0 if you want to talk about this issue in particular.

Problem 2 
There are those who do not wish to have an officer grade because of a personal preference or who do not qualify for CAP officer grade based on the lack of a high school diploma or NCO grade because of a lack of prior military NCO service.  Based on the join dates of SMWOG in my Wing, it looks like as many as 23% of those with that grade have held it for 3+ years and presumably either don't want or don't qualify for another grade.  If 20% of CAP members are SMWOG and 23% of them are at that grade permanently this means that about 5% of CAP adults (about 1,500 people) may be permanent "Airmen".  This is  almost 15x the number in the CAP "NCO program".

Problem 3
I think this would also help us solve the minor confusion problems that can pop up when trying to explain SMWOG status to folks in the military or other organizations.  Even the new guys in systems with ranks have some sort of rank assigned to them.   

Problem 4
A common rip on CAP is that we are all officers with no one to lead.  While we would still obviously be very top-heavy with officers, it would provide some balance to the system. 

Problem 5
If you look in e-services now we actually put "SM" (meaning "Senior Member") as their grade.  Using this as a grade doesn't make sense as it is the same term that is used to describe CAP's adult members in general and is partly responsible for the confusion that outsiders have. 

Alternative Change:
It has been suggested before that we rename senior members without grade "Officer Candidates".  While this describes what most of new senior members actually are, it does not address the problems above as it still leaves the member in limbo with no real recognized grade.  It was my impression, and I could be wrong, that even Officer Candidates in various military programs have a real grade of some type if for no other reason than for payroll purposes.  In recognition of this past proposal, I'm including it as an option in the poll though I'm not recommending it. 

How much of a problem would this be to implement?
It would require a change to 35-1 which would have to be approved by the normal regulation change process.  And as it involves a change in the CAP grade system, it would need to be approved by the Air Force.  I can't forsee any reason the AF would object to this. 

Once this is done, actual implementation would take no more than a few mouse clicks to make the change in e-services.  Eventually, there would need to be various minor changes in other regulations as they are updated so as to reflect the new terminology.  No big deal.   

[Eclipse]

No.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The "Grade" of "Senior Member" is no good.  Nobody knows what it is, including folk in CAP.  Also...

If adults are senior members, are cadets junior members?  Sounds stupid, but a lot of stupid media types keep calling the cadet program the "CAP Junior Cadets."

You can be a senior member at 18.  An 18 year old is not a senior anything, unless you are talking high school.

How can the most junior adult members of our organization be called "Senior" members?  Are they over 65?

What happens when several cadets get together, and one outranks the others and is refered to as the "Senior cadet?"  How can he be a cadet and a senior at the same time?  Or, how can he be the "Senior Junior Cadet?"

I would prefer "Officer Candidate," but I fully understand that not all SMWOG's want to accept officer rank.  "Airman" I don't think works, either, since we really don't have an enlisted structure.  Also, do cadets salute an airman and call him "Sir?"

For purposes of discussion, how about "Officer Trainee," abbreviated "OT?"  The member can train to be either a commissioned officer, flight officer, or non-commissioned officer, so it is reasonably accurate.  It does not contain the commission-bound implications of the term "Officer Candidate."  Would this work for y'all?

[Eclipse]

"Senior Member Without Grade" is not a "grade", it is a status.

As a SMWOG you are a Senior Member, period.

"Officer Trainee, candidate, whatever" doesn't work either for the same reason as if you're not interested in accepting grade, then you're not a trainee for anything either. Members cannot train to be flight officers or NCO's - that status is based on age or another service.

[JohnKachenmeister]

"Senior Member Without Grade" is not a "grade", it is a status.

As a SMWOG you are a Senior Member, period.

"Officer Trainee, candidate, whatever" doesn't work either for the same reason as if you're not interested in accepting grade, then you're not a trainee for anything either. Members cannot train to be flight officers or NCO's - that status is based on age or another service.

That's why I put "Grade" in "Quotes."

But... OF COURSE you have to train to be a CAP NCO or CAP flight officer.  That's why we have the 6-month SM-to-Grade provision.  Do you think we do things so close to the military's way of doing things that a sergeant can immediately transition into CAP from, say, the Marines?

[IceNine]

This thread makes angels cry   

[Flying Pig]

"Airman"?  Do you mean like "Marine" "Sailor" "Soldier" or "Coast Guardsman"?  I would have a big issue with it and I think the USAF Airman would also.
What is the problem you are trying to fix actually?  Leave it alone.  Were fine.   Again, were back to trying to make CAP something its not. 

[EMT-83]

We would have Cadet Senior Airman and a senior Airman?

[Flying Pig]

Senior Member Airman Without Grade = SMAWG

C'mon....say it with me!

[ZigZag911]

I think we need to address other anomalies first, especially the status of RM O-6 and flag officers joining CAP...currently many retired officers belonging to CAP prefer to hold the status of SMWOG rather than accept 'demotion' to lieutenant colonel.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Why do we make a further differentiation between cadets and adult members by throwing the word "senior" around? Used to be, there were members and cadets. (And frankly, I'm not ready for the old folks' home or for a Golden Buckeye Card, so I'm not a "senior.")

I'm a major, abbreviated Maj. There are cadet majors (C/Maj). But I'm not a senior major. There's no such thing as a S/Maj. I'm a major, period.

Someone above said there'd be a cadet senior airman and a senior Airman. Nope. There'd be a cadet senior airman and an airman, period. Or possibly a cadet senior airman and an adult wearing three stripes as a senior airman. The difference? One has "cadet" in his grade," while the other wears the regular grade and has different training and experience.

"Officer candidate" is disingenuous. Not everyone's going to be an officer, and frankly, not every one of them should be to begin with. I'm quite fine with calling them airmen, whether as a grade or as a generic term.

On a slightly different topic, to address ZigZag... As for O-6s and higher not accepting lieutenant colonel's grade? So be it. They can use their retired grade and wear their military uniforms when appropriate. They've earned that right.

[Nathan]

Why not just make all new senior members Flight Officers?

That way, if they choose to move on and become regular officers, they can. If they choose not to, then they can stick around as a flight officer, and maybe even become a higher-ranking flight officer, but still be a flight officer all along.

Might help with some of the continuity issues when dealing with 18 year old SM's.

[RiverAux]

"Airman"?  Do you mean like "Marine" "Sailor" "Soldier" or "Coast Guardsman"? 

No, I mean the rank "Airman" used by the Air Force. 

What is the problem you are trying to fix actually?

Well, I know that this is your favorite comment to make in response to almost any proposal put forward on this board, so I'll refer you to the 5 specific problems referred to in my original post (they were placed in bold so that they would be sort of obvious).  Please don't say that I haven't actually described any problems with the current system.  They may not be big ones (as I also noted), but they are there.

Again, were back to trying to make CAP something its not.

How does assigning an actual grade to new adult members of CAP or adults who don't want to or can't be officers or NCOs make us something we are not? 

[Flying Pig]

"Airman"?  Do you mean like "Marine" "Sailor" "Soldier" or "Coast Guardsman"? 

No, I mean the rank "Airman" used by the Air Force. 

What is the problem you are trying to fix actually?

Well, I know that this is your favorite comment to make in response to almost any proposal put forward on this board, so I'll refer you to the 5 specific problems referred to in my original post (they were placed in bold so that they would be sort of obvious).  Please don't say that I haven't actually described any problems with the current system.  They may not be big ones (as I also noted), but they are there.

Again, were back to trying to make CAP something its not.

How does assigning an actual grade to new adult members of CAP or adults who don't want to or can't be officers or NCOs make us something we are not?

You offer some of the most complex solutions to some of the most meaningless situations.  I would hardly classify this as a problem by any means.  Titles?  Really?  Thats what this is about?  So again, what is the issue with how it is now?

Edited for politeness.

[RiverAux]

Titles?  Really?  Thats what this is about?

Well, yes. 

So again, what is the issue with how it is now?

If you'd like to discuss the specifics of any of the problems I outlined, I'm up for that.   

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Titles?  Really?  Thats what this is about?

Well, yes. 

So again, what is the issue with how it is now?

If you'd like to discuss the specifics of any of the problems I outlined, I'm up for that.

As long as I've been around CAP, it's been a niggling issue — what do we do with new senior adult regular members who are in limbo for the first six months and will rely solely on duty-performance promotions to get out of titular purgatory?

We call them "Mr.," "Mrs." and "Miss," like we would for flight officers, but their membership cards say "SM." That's not a grade. They're closer to being airmen basic (airman basics?) than anything. Because everyone comes in as a SMWOG, then are promoted either to EM, flight officer or officer grades, it's clear that this is the absolute bottom rung of the grade ladder, so an instant pin-on of flight officer bars is questionable to me.

We call them SMs because we're not willing to make ABs out of them, since our bloated infrastructure spoils everyone to expect to become at least butterbars right off the bat. But it would be infinitely more efficient to call them ABs than SMs.

And then the next step is, since we have such a bloated officer corps already, how do we create and sustain an enlisted corps? (Maybe three-year memberships for officers, one-year hitches for EMs, for one thing?) Seems there was a push at the national level to redevelop the enlisted corps, which is a Darned. Fine. Idea. whose time has come.

Anyway, there's another thought to stir this mess up.

[Spike]

Change the current term "Senior Member" to Officer, and allow new adult members joining cap to be called "Senior Member".

Problem solved. 

Honestly, I introduce all the Senior Members in my squadron to others as "this is Lt so and so" or these are "the Officer/s in charge of something".

No need to reinvent terms when we have terms we can just "shuffle around"??!?!?!

[Flying Pig]

So this is what you guys do at meetings?  Sit around and discuss your titles and how confusing they are to each other?

[Spike]

So this is what you guys do at meetings?  Sit around and discuss your titles and how confusing they are to each other?

No I eat donuts, drink coffee and critique Cadets drill movements even though I don't have any idea how to actually perform drill myself.  I also show up 30 minutes late, never salute anyone (nor return salutes) use my CAP membership to get discounts at Wendy's and McDonald's.  I then leave 20 minutes before the end of a meeting since I don't care for all that "military custom stuff".  I also never show up to help out at unit fundraisers, never attend weekend activities, keep as far away from Cadets as possible and sit in my flight suite week after week.  Not to mention, I talk trash on people I don't even know at Wing and Group Headquarters, never progressed past Level 1 in 10 years as a Senior Member and always (always) wait until my membership expires to renew.

SERIOUSLY.... I am kidding.  HOWEVER, I have met Senior Members like this before.  Have you??

[Camas]

never salute anyone (nor return salutes)

Very well put - and so true. My favorite is the new member who goes up to a senior officer - never met him or her before - and addresses him or her by first name like they know each other. Not sure that was covered in Level One now, was it?