Question..

[LtCol Hooligan]

You know- since this was done outside of CAP- it would qualify for hours towards your community service ribbon.  You should ask her to sign your sheet and put it in your file so you can keep earning your hours.  Nice job to help her Daniel.  I am sure you made her month!! 

Oh- and most commanders will tell you if you are doing something wrong.  He would have said "Cadet, call me George today" if he wanted you to do so.  I think he was happy you were there and contributing to your community.  This is Character Development at it's finest.  Keep up the good work.

[Daniel]

On the topic of suing cap.

You know the most dangerous activity I have done in CAP

The activity that I end up bleeding every time I do it?

Uniform prep.

I nick myself with the pins and burn myself on the iron every time
have I sued cap yet? No. because I'm not trying to get CAPs money
Heck I've donated to cap like 6 times in my 6 month membership.

[notaNCO forever]

On the topic of suing cap.

You know the most dangerous activity I have done in CAP

The activity that I end up bleeding every time I do it?

Uniform prep.

I nick myself with the pins and burn myself on the iron every time
have I sued cap yet? No. because I'm not trying to get CAPs money
Heck I've donated to cap like 6 times in my 6 month membership.

I think it is more your insurance company that CAP is worried about getting sued by.

[Spike]

Unless you live in the same neighborhood as the lady moving, your Commander was wrong in asking for your help.  CAP Cadets are not a labor pool!  He used your sympathies toward the old lady and her condition to motivate you into helping. 

Let me ask....who else helped you mover her??

As far as customs and courtesies go, it is not improper to render a salute if you and the Officer are both out of uniform.  You still know he is an Officer....nothing changes that fact.  Just because there is no uniform doesn't mean rank goes away.  If you didn't want to salute because it felt weird, a simple "Sir" is all that is needed.

In the end I hope he at least bought you lunch.  If not, he is totally in the wrong.

(I would never ask Cadets to use their time to help me help someone else move.  Improper situation!!!  Unless the person moving is known to you, and the person wanted you there specifically.  Even then I would feel funny about asking you.)

[jimmydeanno]

Yeah, and when those CAP members went to help the Katrina victims, they were in the wrong, because they didn't live in their neighborhood.  They used their "victim status" to make people feel bad for them and help them. 

We should only help people we specifically know.  No more helping strangers everyone, it's completely improper.

[Spike]

Yeah, and when those CAP members went to help the Katrina victims, they were in the wrong, because they didn't live in their neighborhood.  They used their "victim status" to make people feel bad for them and help them. 

We should only help people we specifically know.  No more helping strangers everyone, it's completely improper.

Wow...you misconstrued my point entirely.  Katrina was a CAP ACTIVITY.  IT WAS A CAP ACTIVITY.  IT WAS A CAP ACTIVITY. 

Helping an Old Lady Move is NOT A CAP ACTIVITY.  IS NOT A CAP ACTIVITY.  IS NOT A CAP ACTIVITY.

Now having said that....Helping an Old Lady move is a personal choice far removed from anything CAP.  What this Cadets Commander did was use CAP as a way to get the young Cadet to HELP.  That was improper.

Getting hurt moving a box would fall to his parents insurance policy.  Getting hurt moving a box during the Aftermath of Katrina while on the CAP roster in CAP uniform would fall to either CAP Corporate or Air Force Insurance policies. 

This discussion is not about insurance though.  It is about customs and courtesies outside of CAP.  I answered that, and gave my opinion on the actions of the Cadets Commander.  YOU brought into play something totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Please don't make it seem like I am against helping OLD PEOPLE with things.

Also, I went to help after Katrina.....so I have been there done that, if that is what card you wanted to play.

Don't mix apples and oranges here. 

[Eclipse]

Yeah, and when those CAP members went to help the Katrina victims, they were in the wrong, because they didn't live in their neighborhood.  They used their "victim status" to make people feel bad for them and help them. 

We should only help people we specifically know.  No more helping strangers everyone, it's completely improper.

Jimmy,

I have to ask, are actually reading your responses before hit "post"?   It looks to me like you're simply ignoring the facts and the details to make your argument.

Katrina was an official CAP mission.  Helping some random person, regardless of the circumstance, is not.  We have a process, regulations, and rules for how we provide resources and assistance, and they don't include the above, especially out of uniform, and with no activity approval.

Frankly, as more details come out, this sounds more and more like a bad idea, at least as it was handled.

"Commander calls up with no notice and says, 'come help me move furniture for someone you don't know'.  Were someone injured or something expensive broken, lawyers would have a field day with that.

That seems to be lost on a lot of people when these discussions come up - the people making the legal arguments won't be coffee house lawyers with the most benevolent interpretation of every regulation and intention, they will be high-priced minutia-hounds with the sole purpose of finding enough of a chink in the defense's armor that they can win an argument in court, or more likely receive an out of court settlement.

Free citizens are entitled to do anything they want, but their status as members of organizations which have rules and regs doesn't end just because they flip some mental switch, especially when we're talking about adult commanders and cadet subordinates.

[Short Field]

The big issue is did the cadet go simply because it was his Commander calling him.  That is where the abuse of position issue comes into play.   Commanders in the RM worry about this all the time as it can and does get them removed from Command.  "Hey Sarge, why don't you grab a couple of airmen and come over and help me wax my car on Saturday morning" is the same thing as helping the old lady move her furniture.   The exception here would be if it was a CAP activity - as in XX Composite Squadron was going to help a old lady move.

The abuse of position comes into play because you don't know if the cadet really wanted to participate but did in order to stay on the Commander's good side (or the flip side - avoid getting on his bad boy list).   

[notaNCO forever]

    I don't see how helping and elderly person move can be construed as abuse of power. If the commander requested something that was for their personal gain, like having cadets do yard work for him, then their is abuse of power. From the sounds of it the commander probably realized that his elderly neighbor needed help moving, and he also knew his squadron had cadets willing to serve the community. If someone like a youth group pastor had kids from his church help a neighbor move I don't think it would be construed as abuse of power, and in my opinion it's pretty much the same situation. A leader seeing someone in need and is in a community service minded group, so he asked for their help.

[Eclipse]

That's the challenge for us in CAP (and similar organizations), by nature we're all inclined to help.  The organization, however, has rules put in place to protect all parties involved (including itself) as to how, and when, we're allowed to get involved.

9.9 times out of ten, this is a non-issue with a big "thank you" at the end (and maybe cookies).

Its the .1 amount of times that always cause the most headache and background noise, and leave people asking "what were you thinking".  This is why constant reinforcement of things like CPPT, ORM, Safety, and other "FUN! EXCITING!" topics is so important.

We all think we know where the line really is, and then see others walking near or over it.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Short Field]

    I don't see how helping and elderly person move can be construed as abuse of power.

Here it is in less polite terms:  The CC calls some members of the squadron to come help someone move.  All the ones that show up are on the CC's good guy list and get promotions and awards.  All the ones who didn't show up - reguardless of reasons - fail to get promotions and awards.  Moral of story:  If the CC asks you to do something - do it  or pay the price. 

The abuse of power is the CC forcing some members to perform non-CAP functions or face retaliation in CAP.  The forcing to perform and the retaliation can be either real or preceived - and how do you know the cadet does not preceive it that way.    It does not matter if that was the Commander's intention: the question is how does the cadet preceive it.   This cadet apparently didn't have a problem with it.  Will all cadets feel the same way?

[EMT-83]

Wow, that's a stretch.

[BrandonKea]

Wow, that's a stretch.

+1

I'd quote Voltaire here but that would seemingly be wasteful.

[Eclipse]

Wow, that's a stretch.

Sadly, its not.

Welcome to CAP, may you never personally have to deal with the nonsense some of us do. 

[Thom]

Wow, that's a stretch.

Sadly, its not.

Welcome to CAP, may you never personally have to deal with the nonsense some of us do.

This is not just CAP...

At the last 3 companies I have worked at, all of them Fortune 500 (or 100 even), there was a VERY strict policy that you do NOT ask folks to do things off the company clock, unless you had a PRE-ESTABLISHED PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with them.  It's OK to ask Joe, who you've worked with and hung out after work over beers, for the last 18 months, to help you move a couch next weekend.  It is NOT OK to ask every guy in your department, ESPECIALLY those who directly report to you, to help you move your couch next weekend.  PERIOD.

This falls under the 'Abuse of Authority' umbrella.  (Note that most places distinguish between asking your DIRECT REPORTS/UNDERLINGS, and asking you PEERS.  Your Peers are presumed to not have any reason to fear you if they say no to your request.  This means that you can ask all the guys who work WITH you to help you move, but not the ones who work FOR you.  And, hey, if you want to ask your boss, go ahead...)

Quite often subordinate folks will feel that they MUST help, or they will be penalized.  And, then the Lawyers get involved and the handcart is rolling straight down the tracks to Heck...

And, FYI, this is actually most often seen in the context of 'Charitable' requests, in that Leaders/Managers feel much less restrained in 'requesting' the assistance of their underlings when the task is 'Worthy'.  Such as moving an injured elderly woman, assisting with a Charity Drive, helping out at a Charity Walk/Run, cleaning up a Youth Center, etc.  Since these are such 'Good' things, why would it possibly be bad for a Leader/Manager to leverage their direct reports to help out?  Except, it is, essentially, extortion, with the implied threat of punishment/lack of reward as the 'negative motivator'.  Most people have enough sense to know why it is wrong to ask your direct reports to come over and clean out your garage for you, but that internal censor fails them on 'Wholesome & Good' tasks.

Thom Hamilton

[jimmydeanno]

Spike, Eclipse,

I understand where you're coming from, my point was that there is only one situation in which this would be deemed improper by normal people.  That situation is one where the CC calls up and orders this cadet to take his free time and help this individual.  This was clearly not the case, as said by the person who stated that they were asked if they wanted to do it, and of their own free will VOLUNTEERED their time to a good cause.  Last I checked, we give people awards for doing that sort of thing.

If this were an official CAP activity, it would be just like them going and cleaning trash up on the side of the road, assisting with Habitat for Humanity, neighborhood cleanups, etc.  No mission number, no NOC approvals, inter-agency agreements, MOUs, etc.  Just another CAP activity.  If something happens; injuries, property damage, etc, that is why our organization has insurance.

Since this wasn't an official CAP activity, it still isn't inappropriate.  The squadron commander isn't using his cadets as a free labor pool.  It's being made out like the guy is running down to the Home Depot to snag a few day laborers.  He knows the cadets, knows their parents and ASKED if they'd like to help.  The request was made by the civilian, not the Sq CC. 

I don't see any abuse of power, liability for the organization that doesn't already exist in everything else we do, or any other negative to this action other than people thinking that this kid was taken advantage of because someone didn't buy him lunch.

Our organization does things.  Our members serve their communities outside of CAP in capacities that aren't related to CAP.  This is a perfect example.  We're allowed to do things together without it being a CAP activity.

I point my cadets to volunteer opportunities all the time; soup kitchens, nursing homes, community volunteer days, etc.  Does that mean that I'm abusing my "power" because I'm pointing to specific opportunities?  Does that mean that I'm somehow "commanding" those cadets to do those specific ones or else they'll be on my bad side?  No.

That's my point.

[Daniel]

Regardless of if I was right here. Now I've got a mess to clean up.

So I guess everyones wrong in the end

[Eclipse]

Regardless of if I was right here. Now I've got a mess to clean up.

Mess?

[Daniel]

Regardless of if I was right here. Now I've got a mess to clean up.

Mess?

Not physically.

But I guess my point is we all mess up

(Some more then others)

Daniel

[BrandonKea]

I don't think there's any mess for you to clean up. This was blown way out of proportion (which never happens here.)

You're fine, kudos to you in fact for helping out!