All, some, or none vs. All or none

Started by ♠SARKID♠, April 17, 2008, 03:43:18 AM

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♠SARKID♠

Question thats been bugging me - Why did nationals change the 39-1 reference about the wear of ribbons for cadets from "all, some, or none" to "all, or none?"  Senior members retain the option, but cadets have to wear everything.  Frankly, I'm sick and tired of walking around with more stuff on my uniform than Patton.  One would expect that if I have my Lindbergh, that I would already have my Curry, Arnold, Feik, Wright Bros, and Rickenbacker.  Why should we have to wear all of those ribbons when SMs don't have to?

Short Field

#1
Life is unfair - and then you die.   >:D   

Seriously, the cadet program is more para-military with standardized uniforms, etc.  If we can just get the Seniors to wear ANY uniform we call it "success".

I always wear none.  I might wear a few one day but if I wear them all, it is nine rows - with wings on top.  To quote a friend of mine who is a USAF pararescueman, "It makes me feel like a Mexican General".

SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

SDF_Specialist

Quote from: Short Field on April 17, 2008, 03:48:54 AM
I always wear none.  I might wear a few one day but if I wear them all, it is nine rows - with wings on top.  To quote a friend of mine who is a USAF pararescueman, "It makes me feel like a Mexican General".

Bueno ;D
SDF_Specialist

♠SARKID♠

QuoteLife is unfair - and then you die.   Evil   
Heh, very true.

Looking back on the post, it sounds a bit too much like I'm complaining about it.  I apologize for that; I'm really just trying to find their reasoning behind it.  It was well enough before, why didn't they leave it alone?

Quote"It makes me feel like a Mexican General".
I know a guy on AFBlues that says the exact same thing.  I was gonna use that as my corollary on post 1, but opted for Patton.

♠SARKID♠

Okay, I just gave a thorough search of AFI36-2903, the AF uniform manual.  Turns out they require all ribbons and devices to be worn so I guess I can see where NHQ was coming from.

...I still don't like it. :(

mikeylikey

I could support Cadet Officers wearing only the highest Cadet Achievement or Milestone ribbon and removing all others.  That would be cool. 

I think when I was a Cadet we had the option of all or some, but never none.  Anyone remember that like 12 years ago??
What's up monkeys?

SarDragon

I usually wear all of my ribbons (12), but I only wear corporate uniforms, so that doesn't include my military ribbons. If I could wear them all, I'd probably pick and choose to still wear about 12.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

jimmydeanno

Quote from: SarDragon on April 17, 2008, 05:33:39 AM
I usually wear all of my ribbons (12), but I only wear corporate uniforms, so that doesn't include my military ribbons. If I could wear them all, I'd probably pick and choose to still wear about 12.

That might be the reason right there.  There are retired/prior service senior members who if they were required to wear "all ribbons" might have to find a 45 (15 rows) ribbon holder.  At least this way it gives them the option of picking all CAP, all military or a selective bunch of both.

My wife for instance is 5'4" and about 110, she has a small frame.  With her mix of AF and CAP decorations she has about 30 ribbons, which become too tall and look really awkward (since it comes to the top of her epaulet).  She can't use a 4 across because the panel of the jacket isn't that wide and it would go under her arm.

I don't have any issues because my jacket is larger and I only have 18 to deal with, so I can fit those with my GTL & Observer wings and be fine.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

SSgt Rudin

Quote from: SarDragon on April 17, 2008, 05:33:39 AM
I usually wear all of my ribbons (12), but I only wear corporate uniforms, so that doesn't include my military ribbons. If I could wear them all, I'd probably pick and choose to still wear about 12.

I wear all my CAP ribbons (11) and then my highest Navy award (NAM). I think that cadets should have the option to remove their phase 1 and 2 ribbons upon receiving their Mitchell.
The problem you get when you say "All, Some, None" is that is the only guide line you are giving. In the Navy they allow "All, top three, or none" this gives a guide line as to what "some" means. Also by just saying "some", cadets will pick and choose based on what looks good or cool, or forms a cool pattern.
SSgt Jordan Rudin, CAP

arajca

IIRC, the loss of the "some" option came at the same NB meeting the NCAC proposed prohibiting - not making optional or providing guidance on what 'some' should mean - cadet officers from wearing Phase I and II ribbons. The NCAC proposal got shot down and the "all or none" got presented and passed instead.

James Shaw

I have 31 total between all my service time. I only wear my CAP on my CAP uniforms corporate or otherwise. My CAP boss the National Historian Col. Len Blascovich prefers for me to wear all of them . He feels that as a Historian I should "model" and be able to share what I wear. Since I only have two people in my chain of command it is not hard to get their feelings.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

lordmonar

The "All, Some, or None" issue has seveal aspects.

I understand from first hand experince what a pain it is to put together a ribbon rack....I got to special order one four across and one three across ribbon racks and glue them together to get all my AD and CAP ribbons onto them.

Until recently we had the problem of "nothing above the notch in the lapel" but they removed that issue.

On a philospical level....I have a problem with the "some" option as that "devalues" all the ribbons that you deem not important enough to wear.

On a traditional level....the USAF has almost always been an "all or none" community (we played with "some" for a while but it went away).  AS the USAF's Auxillary (yes I know about the AFAM issue but that is a different thread) we should follow the lead of our parent service as much as possible.

IMHO you should wear all of your award...even if it makes you look like a Mexican Corpral.  It's not my faul or anyone's fault that CAP has so many ribbons and that it has awarded them to you.  If you earned them you should show them off with pride.  Even the lowly curry ribbon or membership ribbon.  It tells the world that you did something important and enfoces that tradition to the members who only have one or two ribbons.  If we say.....that it is just a give away, I don't care about it....you are demotivating the new people by saying their accomplishments do not mean anything to you.

If CAP has too many ribbons...then maybe we should look into consolidating some of them (for example our SM "level" ribbons can be converted to just a single ribbon and you would wear pip on them as you gain level, and the cadet acheivement ribbons can be consolidated into 4 Phase ribbons with pips.)

I would advocate that military ribbons on CAP unifroms be optional.  But ALL CAP ribbons should be worn on the service coat.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DC

I personally think, at least with cadet ribbons, that there should be a 'some' option for the service uniform. I think it should be limited to allowing cadets to wear all activity and service ribbons as well as all of their milestone ribbons and their last achievement ribbon. I think that a full rack should be mandatory on service dress though. To me the allows cadets to simplify their rack (and I know the larger mine gets the more a PITA it becomes) but still wear their ribbons.

As to devaluing the achievements be not wearing the ribbons, I don't think so. I'm every bit as proud of each achievement as I was the day I got it, and to me the ribbon is not the achievement. It is a symbol you put on your uniform to display your accomplishments to others, but by having, for example, the mitchell, it is known to anyone who can read a ribbon rack that you earned all that came before it. I don't feel the need to impress anyone with the size of my ribbon rack. I already know what I have accomplished, and I don't have to look like a peacock to prove myself.


ZigZag911

At one point in time, the reg was to remove achievement ribbons once Mitchell was earned....a return to that rule would relieve this problem.

arajca

Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 18, 2008, 11:47:57 PM
At one point in time, the reg was to remove achievement ribbons once Mitchell was earned....a return to that rule would relieve this problem.
That idea resulted in the loss of the 'some' option.

♠SARKID♠

Well now, heres something new - the regulations give no specific direction for the corporate aviator shirt (which I wear).  It simply says
QuoteCAP ribbons may be worn centered above the left breast pocket. No military ribbons may be worn.

mikeylikey

^ I would imagine you need to defer to the guidance for the other uniforms and ribbons.  Yet one more oversight on the creator of this uniform.  Man, we need to get rid of that guy. 
What's up monkeys?

Duke Dillio



Could you imagine Gen. Patraeus having to wear all his ribbons if he was a LTC in the CAP?

mikeylikey

What's up monkeys?

SAR-EMT1

Whats with the Air Assault badge and the Jump Wings being on the pocket flap?

Second: What is the huge thing above the ribbons on his right side? (our left)
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

MIKE

French Para Badge IIRC.  And... Topic.
Mike Johnston

arajca

::YANK::

Seniors retained the "some" option. So, if a SM wants to short stack or only wear their highest PD ribbon, they can.

SAR-EMT1

IMO Cadets should be given the option to wear all some or none upon attaining the Mitchell.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

arajca

As do many. However, I would not require cadets to remove ribbons they have earned, regardless of how I think they look - unless the ribbons are in physically poor condition, i.e. frayed.

mikeylikey

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 26, 2008, 03:12:02 AM
IMO Cadets should be given the option to wear all some or none upon attaining the Mitchell.

+1 (times a billion)

It should be Cadet Officer= removal of all achievements prior to the Mitch.  Figuring if they were to turn Senior, they would only be allowed to wear the highest cadet achievement ribbon anyway.  Might as well clean up the stack a little!!
What's up monkeys?

PHall

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 26, 2008, 04:55:37 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 26, 2008, 03:12:02 AM
IMO Cadets should be given the option to wear all some or none upon attaining the Mitchell.

+1 (times a billion)

It should be Cadet Officer= removal of all achievements prior to the Mitch.  Figuring if they were to turn Senior, they would only be allowed to wear the highest cadet achievement ribbon anyway.  Might as well clean up the stack a little!!

They had that rule in the early-mid 70's. It only lasted a couple of years before the National Board recinded the rule because of all of the whining by the bling gods.

mikeylikey

What's up monkeys?

SAR-EMT1

Who exactly whined? The National CAC?  The NHQ Director of Cadet Programs?
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

lordmonar

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 26, 2008, 03:12:02 AM
IMO Cadets should be given the option to wear all some or none upon attaining the Mitchell.

Why?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

PHall

Quote from: lordmonar on April 26, 2008, 09:55:53 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 26, 2008, 03:12:02 AM
IMO Cadets should be given the option to wear all some or none upon attaining the Mitchell.

Why?

To fend off the "South American Dictator" look with all of those ribbons.

There was a C/Col at a event where GEN Colin Powell was attending when he was the Chairman of the JCS and the cadet had more ribbons then the General did.
And the cadet had the "normal" number of ribbons earned by Spaatz cadets.

lordmonar

then reduce the number of ribbons.

But once they earn them...don't make them take them off.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SAR-EMT1

Think of it like this:
Once a cadet get Mitchell he/she wipes the slate clean and starts over (achievement wise) So too goes the ribbons.
Obviously they keep things like encampment or CAC ribbons etc...

But then again Im in favor of merely issuing the Curry and a ribbon for every mile stone. - Wright Bros, Mitchell etc. with stars or something to signify the steps in between. - Same as for Seniors.

Less is more.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

sandman

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 27, 2008, 04:43:53 AM
Think of it like this:
Once a cadet get Mitchell he/she wipes the slate clean and starts over (achievement wise) So too goes the ribbons.
Obviously they keep things like encampment or CAC ribbons etc...

But then again Im in favor of merely issuing the Curry and a ribbon for every mile stone. - Wright Bros, Mitchell etc. with stars or something to signify the steps in between. - Same as for Seniors.

Less is more.

Here, Here!
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

PHall

Quote from: lordmonar on April 27, 2008, 03:58:33 AM
then reduce the number of ribbons.

But once they earn them...don't make them take them off.


Actually, that's been done at least twice that I know of. Once in the late 50's and again in the late 60's.
But we keep taking after our "parent service" and keep making more ribbons to earn/wear.

How many new ribbons have been authorized for the Air Force since you went through Lackland?
It's not just a CAP problem. The whole US military in general seems to have this problem. ::)

lordmonar

Well...if we stopped having these wars....we would not need new medals. ;D
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SAR-EMT1

I really want to quote George Carlin now... ::)
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

cnitas

Quote from: PHall on April 27, 2008, 05:13:05 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 27, 2008, 03:58:33 AM
then reduce the number of ribbons.

But once they earn them...don't make them take them off.


Actually, that's been done at least twice that I know of. Once in the late 50's and again in the late 60's.
But we keep taking after our "parent service" and keep making more ribbons to earn/wear.

How many new ribbons have been authorized for the Air Force since you went through Lackland?
It's not just a CAP problem. The whole US military in general seems to have this problem. ::)

Since we now have 5 Milestone ribbons, we could eliminate achievement ribbons altogether and just keep the milestones +curry. 

That would give a Spaatz cadet who did nothing but test and the required encampment, and a red service award, 8 ribbons. 

Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

MIKE

IMO... for a some option standard, I would do only the highest cadet achievement or award ribbon plus all other decorations/service ribbons.  Same as already established for seniors for like awards and for pro-dev awards by CAPR 39-3.

Because the awards are sequential, I see no reason to wear more than one at a time.  Ideally this means cadets could trade up for the next ribbon much like many units already do for grade insignia, and since the other awards are less regularly awarded one could go more than a few months with the same Unimount, rather than having to change both out each couple of months.


Mike Johnston

PHall

Quote from: cnitas on April 27, 2008, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 27, 2008, 05:13:05 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 27, 2008, 03:58:33 AM
then reduce the number of ribbons.

But once they earn them...don't make them take them off.


Actually, that's been done at least twice that I know of. Once in the late 50's and again in the late 60's.
But we keep taking after our "parent service" and keep making more ribbons to earn/wear.

How many new ribbons have been authorized for the Air Force since you went through Lackland?
It's not just a CAP problem. The whole US military in general seems to have this problem. ::)

Since we now have 5 Milestone ribbons, we could eliminate achievement ribbons altogether and just keep the milestones +curry. 

That would give a Spaatz cadet who did nothing but test and the required encampment, and a red service award, 8 ribbons. 



That was done back in the late 60's. And as I said in a previous post, it only lasted a couple of years before we went back to wearing all of the ribbons.

But hey, if somebody can get a Wing or Region Commander or two or three to back this and to get it on the agenda for a National Board or National Excutive Committee meeting and actually get it passed, great!

But I'm not holding my breath.

Blue is so not my color!

jb512

Quote from: lordmonar on April 27, 2008, 03:58:33 AM
then reduce the number of ribbons.

But once they earn them...don't make them take them off.


I don't think anyone is trying to make it mandatory, but rather an option like seniors have.

Gunner C

Quote from: cnitas on April 27, 2008, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 27, 2008, 05:13:05 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 27, 2008, 03:58:33 AM
then reduce the number of ribbons.

But once they earn them...don't make them take them off.


Actually, that's been done at least twice that I know of. Once in the late 50's and again in the late 60's.
But we keep taking after our "parent service" and keep making more ribbons to earn/wear.

How many new ribbons have been authorized for the Air Force since you went through Lackland?
It's not just a CAP problem. The whole US military in general seems to have this problem. ::)

Since we now have 5 Milestone ribbons, we could eliminate achievement ribbons altogether and just keep the milestones +curry. 

That would give a Spaatz cadet who did nothing but test and the required encampment, and a red service award, 8 ribbons. 



How about this:  Curry Award then a Phase II ribbon.  For each additional achievement, put a bronze star on it, a silver for the fifth achievement.  Then have the Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, etc.

This cadet would have a possibility of (+ or -) 8 ribbons (Encampment, Red Service, Curry, Phase II, Mitchell, Earhart, Eaker, Spaatz).  Cheaper, cleaner, MUCH less bling.

We could do the same for officers:

Get rid of

Garber, Loening, and Leadership Ribbons - Put bronze stars on the Membership Ribbon
Orientation Pilot Ribbon
Counter Drug Ribbon - Use the SAR Ribbon instead
Command Svc - there's a badge
Yeager
Crossfield
LIfesaving - award a Commander's Comm or MSA instead.

GC

RiverAux

I believe you can only wear the command badge when you're commanding.  The ribbon is permanent.

Gunner C

Quote from: RiverAux on April 29, 2008, 12:29:43 AM
I believe you can only wear the command badge when you're commanding.  The ribbon is permanent.

Heck, after the change of command, you don't need the badge OR the ribbon.  It's just unnecessary.

GC

adamblank

The badge could just go on the pocket flap after command is over and eliminate the ribbon.  I would say as a whole our ribbons aren't too out of control.  They can be when mixed with military ribbons and the highest three could be instituted, but if they are all earned, wear them.  They are a good tool to get to know other members and tell a story.
Adam Brandao

jimmydeanno

You know, I don't really care if a cadet has a bunch of ribbons.  We award them for behaviors/actions that are supposed to make them a better person, we use it as motivation.  It also shows them that there is a benefit to doing good things and improving themselves.  True some people miss the boat and think that the whole thing is about ribbons.

I finished the my time as a cadet with with 27 ribbons - so what? I now have 18 What does it matter? Take away the PD ones and combine them I still have 14.  When it comes down to it - sure, if the cadets want a "some" option - give it to them...it doesn't really matter. 

At the end of the day you'll still know what the person is about, whether they're ribbon chasers or they are people who get ribbons because they actually get things done.  If can make my 18 ribbons looks just as "clean" and uncluttered as someone with 6, it's all in the way you present it.

So, whatever, give them the some option and call it a day.

If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Psicorp

WIWAC and in a squadron on an AF base, we pretty much followed the guidelines we saw the active duty folks use:

Short sleeve blues shirt no tie = no ribbons

Either blues shirt with tie = all ribbons for enlisted cadets, wear of all ribbons optional for cadet officers

Service Coat = all ribbons for all cadets

I've never really cared for the idea of "short stacking" CAP ribbons.  If you're wearing CAP and military ribbons then sure, pick the most important from each if that's your fancy.  For some reason seeing a member who's been around a while wearing only one or two ribbons just doesn't look right.   
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

Duke Dillio

Quote from: Psicorp on April 29, 2008, 03:13:16 PM
WIWAC and in a squadron on an AF base, we pretty much followed the guidelines we saw the active duty folks use:

Short sleeve blues shirt no tie = no ribbons

Either blues shirt with tie = all ribbons for enlisted cadets, wear of all ribbons optional for cadet officers

Service Coat = all ribbons for all cadets

I've never really cared for the idea of "short stacking" CAP ribbons.  If you're wearing CAP and military ribbons then sure, pick the most important from each if that's your fancy.  For some reason seeing a member who's been around a while wearing only one or two ribbons just doesn't look right.   

Seeing an officer who has been in CAP for thirty years still wearing CAP cutouts on either side of his collar doesn't look right either...

I think we are basically beating this to death.  I don't see the reason to mandate the wear of ribbons other than on the USAF style service coat.  Other than that, I just don't see a need.  Wearing ribbons on your blue AF shirt just puts holes in it and the shirt starts to fall apart.  I swear that I went through 8-10 different blue shirts WIWAC, some for outgrowing, but the majority for ribbon damage because we were required to wear all of the ribbons.  It never made any sense to me then and it still doesn't.

MIKE

Technically, all that is required on the s/s shirt/blouse is nametag and appropriate grade insignia... It's not like the Coast Guard where you have to wear some unless you have none.
Mike Johnston

Gunner C

Quote from: Psicorp on April 29, 2008, 03:13:16 PM
WIWAC and in a squadron on an AF base, we pretty much followed the guidelines we saw the active duty folks use:

Short sleeve blues shirt no tie = no ribbons

Either blues shirt with tie = all ribbons for enlisted cadets, wear of all ribbons optional for cadet officers

Service Coat = all ribbons for all cadets

I've never really cared for the idea of "short stacking" CAP ribbons.  If you're wearing CAP and military ribbons then sure, pick the most important from each if that's your fancy.  For some reason seeing a member who's been around a while wearing only one or two ribbons just doesn't look right.   

You'll see very few AF officers with ribbons on a shirt.  Also, AF officers usually (not always) avoid wearing a tie with the short sleeved shirt.  It's a holdover from the days of the 505s and 1505s (tan summer uniform).  They weren't very conducive to wearing ribbons on - the fabric was rather light (not like Army khakis) and they tended to hang.  Aircrews nearly always just wore wings.  NCOs and enlisted tended toward ribbons as did officers who were former enlisted.

GC

Hawk200

Quote from: Gunner C on April 30, 2008, 02:38:46 AM
You'll see very few AF officers with ribbons on a shirt.  Also, AF officers usually (not always) avoid wearing a tie with the short sleeved shirt.  It's a holdover from the days of the 505s and 1505s (tan summer uniform).  They weren't very conducive to wearing ribbons on - the fabric was rather light (not like Army khakis) and they tended to hang.  Aircrews nearly always just wore wings.  NCOs and enlisted tended toward ribbons as did officers who were former enlisted.

Pretty much what I've seen in both Army and Air Force components.

I have been told by a former enlisted officer that many non-prior officers don't like the prior ones wearing ribbons at all. Somehow those non-priors feel that they would be somehow looked down upon by enlisted, or somehow feel that it equates to a ranking system (not sure how that idea came to be, but I can understand the premise). Some people have issues regardless of what they wear.

lordmonar

Quote from: Gunner C on April 30, 2008, 02:38:46 AMAircrews nearly always just wore wings. 

Make that ALWAYS and you'd be correct.  Aviation Badges and Chaplain Badges are MANDITORY on all uniforms.

Officers tend not to wear ribbons on their sevice uniform, enlisted are "encouraged" to wear them.

It's just an Air Force thing.  ;D
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Gunner C

Quote from: lordmonar on April 30, 2008, 05:05:43 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 30, 2008, 02:38:46 AMAircrews nearly always just wore wings. 

Make that ALWAYS and you'd be correct.  Aviation Badges and Chaplain Badges are MANDITORY on all uniforms.

Officers tend not to wear ribbons on their sevice uniform, enlisted are "encouraged" to wear them.

It's just an Air Force thing.  ;D
Didn't want to use an absolute - but I was pretty sure that it was, in fact, the case.

GC

PHall

Quote from: lordmonar on April 30, 2008, 05:05:43 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 30, 2008, 02:38:46 AMAircrews nearly always just wore wings. 

Make that ALWAYS and you'd be correct.  Aviation Badges and Chaplain Badges are MANDITORY on all uniforms.

Officers tend not to wear ribbons on their sevice uniform, enlisted are "encouraged" to wear them.

It's just an Air Force thing.  ;D

Enlisted flyers don't usually wear their ribbons either.

Of course getting flyers, Officers and Enlisted, to wear anything other then flight suits takes an act of Congress.

Getting them to wear Service Dress takes a small act of God.